1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Brovikk Rasputin]

dreamgazer wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Your argument was just as absurd.

"Hell, it's possible that the breath scene happens even in lower-EMS versions of destroy.
Higher-EMS players just have the "privilege" to see it. Not seeing it =/= it didn't happen."
No..

Are the circumstances of the actual explosion that different between mid-EMS, high-EMS, and breath-EMS (low-EMS I'll automatically agree, but that's similar to Shep dying in ME2). Why wouldn't the scene happen off-screen in the other variations of destroy?

Uh yes? Earth gets burned really bad in the low EMS destroy ending. Look it up. There's a very clear difference. 

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't see how it's a happy ending either way. Shepard will likely have to cope with PTSD for the rest of his life over all the crap he's been through in the past 3 years.

If it was up to me I would just let Shepard rest in peace, but my war assets are incredibly high by default thanks to MP.

Alive, the possibilities are endless with what can happen next.

Dead, you're just dead.

I don't understand what you mean? With death comes literal closure.

And with life comes "ever after"  With a dead SHepard the story ends.  With a live SHepard we can imagine anything we want.

The thing is, the rubble scene is not confirmation enough for us that SHepard does survive.  And s Shep is perpetually on a knife's edge of being alive or dead.

[dreamgazer]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Uh yes? Earth gets burned really bad in the low EMS destroy ending. Look it up. There's a very clear difference. 

Like I said, it doesn't apply to low-EMS.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

dreamgazer wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Uh yes? Earth gets burned really bad in the low EMS destroy ending. Look it up. There's a very clear difference. 

Like I said, it doesn't apply to low-EMS.

There are many variations of destroy. There's also the one where the buildings crumble but the people are left alive. There are clearly a difference between the explosions.

[Sundance31us]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The breath scene was him inhaling, not exhaling.

Which will be followed by an exhale...whether he/she takes another breath is up to you.

[wright1978]

Not sure i'll ever fully forgive them for the utter disrespect they showed regarding clarifying shep's fate.
Before extended cut there was no clarification for any ending but with EC they added clarification/expositionfor Shep's death in other endings but dumped the breath scene at the end, utterly disjointed and without the necessary exposition/clarification. Shows utter disrespect imo.

[dreamgazer]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Uh yes? Earth gets burned really bad in the low EMS destroy ending. Look it up. There's a very clear difference.

Like I said, it doesn't apply to low-EMS.

There are many variations of destroy. There's also the one where the buildings crumble but the people are left alive. There are clearly a difference between the explosions.

And the Citadel explosion itself when it's not low-EMS, the thing that would determine Shep's survival? Does it appear different?

(Ugh, thinking about the plausibility of that still makes my brain hurt.)

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't see how it's a happy ending either way. Shepard will likely have to cope with PTSD for the rest of his life over all the crap he's been through in the past 3 years.

If it was up to me I would just let Shepard rest in peace, but my war assets are incredibly high by default thanks to MP.

Alive, the possibilities are endless with what can happen next.

Dead, you're just dead.

I don't understand what you mean? With death comes literal closure.

And with life comes "ever after"  With a dead SHepard the story ends.  With a live SHepard we can imagine anything we want.

The thing is, the rubble scene is not confirmation enough for us that SHepard does survive.  And s Shep is perpetually on a knife's edge of being alive or dead.

Shepard's fate is only one aspect of the ending. The ME Universe lives on regardless of whether Shepard lives or dies.

I like how you called it rubble scene. Very sneaky. The breath scene is literal confirmation that he survived after the Crucible blast. I agree that the scene is short and that they should have done more, but for me to assume he's dead I'd have to headcanon an entirely new event that isn't implied to follow up on the previous one.

In your above list of things that could have been added for the breath scene to work for you, none of those things are off the table with the breath scene. For example, we don't see Shepard immobilized or unable to contact someone.

In your situation, you're okay with being able imagine your Shepard's ending but you don't like the starting point of where this is done.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:01 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Why can't Mass Effect 1 and 2 have bittersweet endings?

There's no accounting for taste. No matter what they do, some people are not going to be satisfied.

That's just the way it goes. I'm sorry.

[Dr_Extrem]

even the unofficial "happy ending" is only a happier one.


most people do not really wanted a happy ending - they wanted an ending, where we (shepard is only our vessel) do not have to surrender to the enemy.
this whole ending scenario remembers me of "compiène 1918". the germans were invited to the trainwagon on the french side of the border and the "entente" forced harsh term on the germans - with the clear directive not to give them any ground. there was also a very limited timeframe (72 hours) for the negotiations.

i see the ending of mass effect 3 in a similar way. the catalyst dictates shepard the terms of his "peace". the terms are clear: bypass my (the catalysts) problem, by merging organic and synthetic life. do my job better if you can (the catalyst is certain, that the cycles are inevitable) or destroy whats between you and the annihalation of all life in the galaxy (the reapers). pick your poison - now.

bypassing the problem, shifting the responsibility to shepard or giving up all responsibilities (at the cost of others).

in addition, we can only choose between those 3 options - everything else, ends in our destruction. it an extortion.


from the dramatic pov:

whats the matter of andersons death?
it has no real impact on the story other than to jerk tears. the ending would have worked without him being on the citadel. shepard has to watch his defacto father die, without any chance to save him. this could have been a strong scene, if it would not be overshadowed by the endings and shepards death. sheps death makes andersons one, a sidenote. the impact andersons death has on shepard, is neglectable - shortly after anderson death, he has to commit suicide. a dead shepard does not need to live with the traume of not being able to save another friend. a dead shepard does not have to deal with anything at all.

a surviving shepard is not a happy one. his/her previous actions and experiences are not erased by the final choice. shepard saw friends die and the hopelessness of the situation. a living shepard has to live with the consequence, that galactic civilisation is disconnected and the systems are isolated. without communication, the forces on earth can not even be sure, that all reapers are dead. a living shepard will have to live with the big questionmarks, that are left - and the biggest one is: "did i made the right choice."


a surviving shepard is not a happy figure - its a tragic one.


a surviving shepard does not make the endings happy - even if the geth and edi survive, the ending is still bittersweet (more sweet than they are now but still bittersweet). the galaxy lies in ruins (every homeworld looks like berlin 1945). every society is depending on goods from other worlds, communication is offline (it worked through the relays as well), apart from qeds (who may be dark as well, if there were installed at all). in destroy, it will take decades to reconnect.

in every ending, we sacrifice our socity to win this war. letting the hero live in this world is not a happy ending, but a personally satisfying one, as it opnes the doors to imagine shepards path in the new world.


i will take (shore)leave from this part of the board. it depresses me too much and stops me from playing me2. see you around.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Shepard's fate is only one aspect of the ending. The ME Universe lives on regardless of whether Shepard lives or dies. 

But it's a big aspect.  Shepard has been our avatar into this universe for five years now.  His/her fate is important.

I like how you called it rubble scene. Very sneaky. The breath scene is literal confirmation that he survived after the Crucible blast. I agree that the scene is short and that they should have done more, but for me to assume he's dead I'd have to headcanon an entirely new event that isn't implied to follow up on the previous one.

So sneaky it even slipped past me 

Sure it's confirmation that Shepard survived.  The initial blast at least.  But you have to use meta information to take it any further "They wouldn't show that if he was going to die" and all that.  Doesnt' really make the scene any more palatable to me.  Taken strictly at face value, Shepard is still in a very, very bad way.  Very easy to headcanon that he quietly bleeds out before anyone can find him.

In your above list of things that could have been added for the breath scene to work for you, none of those things are off the table with the breath scene. For example, we don't see Shepard immobilized or unable to contact someone.

We also don't see any of the things I listed happening.  Any of which would do much to shore up the ambiguity of the scene and make it a far more probably "Shepard lives" scene

In your situation, you're okay with being able imagine your Shepard's ending but you don't like the starting point of where this is done.

.

 I'm talking about adding more tools to the toolbox to help individual headcanons here.  This is what makes the memorial scene in MEHEM work for me.  Not that it's a happy celebratory reunion (it's not) but becasue I can see Shepard up and about, and imagine what comes next in his life.  Not worry that he'll die before anyone realizes he was still alive on the Citadel.

[AlanC9]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

i see the ending of mass effect 3 in a similar way. the catalyst dictates shepard the terms of his "peace". the terms are clear: bypass my (the catalysts) problem, by merging organic and synthetic life. do my job better if you can (the catalyst is certain, that the cycles are inevitable) or destroy whats between you and the annihalation of all life in the galaxy (the reapers). pick your poison - now.

Who cares what the Catalyst thinks?

And it's an odd kind of surrender that leaves the surrendering side in charge of the side they're supposedly surrendering to. Even odder if the other side is dead.

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:17 .

[Reorte]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

whats the matter of andersons death?
it has no real impact on the story other than to jerk tears. the ending would have worked without him being on the citadel. shepard has to watch his defacto father die, without any chance to save him. this could have been a strong scene, if it would not be overshadowed by the endings and shepards death. sheps death makes andersons one, a sidenote. the impact andersons death has on shepard, is neglectable - shortly after anderson death, he has to commit suicide. a dead shepard does not need to live with the traume of not being able to save another friend. a dead shepard does not have to deal with anything at all.

Never really thought of that but it's a good point, particularly since the whole "Shepard dies or is left in a state which would almost certainly lead to death and the only reason you might think otherwise is because we wouldn't bother showing it otherwise" diminishes the one good thing about the whole ending farce - Anderson's death was very well done, and very touching (and not so completely arbitrary).

[AlanC9]

wright1978 wrote...

Not sure i'll ever fully forgive them for the utter disrespect they showed regarding clarifying shep's fate.
Before extended cut there was no clarification for any ending but with EC they added clarification/expositionfor Shep's death in other endings but dumped the breath scene at the end, utterly disjointed and without the necessary exposition/clarification. Shows utter disrespect imo.

Blame the people on this board. Pre-EC almost everyone was talking about the EMS requirements for the breath clip. Only a handful of, bluntly, cranks took the position that the clip wasn't meaningful anyway.

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:29 .

[78stonewobble]

Imho it wasn't just lacking a happy end.

Control, synthesis, destroy or dismis.

There isn't a sad one either. Or a "bitter-sweet" one for that matter.

Meaning loosing isn't made into sad thing or tear jerking thing. We don't see shep, li, squadmate die meaninglessly/hopelessly. There isn't a tragic ending. Except maybe refuse and liara's recordin but that is quite empty without the above.

Bitter-sweet? Having to sacrifice yourself and things you care about to win for the sake of the many. Doesn't let you walk away from the game feeling sad but with a sense of accomplishment and a feeling of it had to be done (catalyst logic took that last part away).

Happy ending of overcoming/surviving and winning against all odds and find some happyness afterwards. Nope you won't be going away from the game with a satisfied smile.

If the ending had been good and decently made It could have been sad, bitter-sweet or happy or all of these and most people wouldn't have complained. 



Before: "thats not true. people don't like the bitter sweet ending because shepard doesn't live" ... No in that case the problem isn't shepard dying but that that particular bittersweet ending wasn't good enough to explain why shepard had to die and didn't tackle it properly.

A little ps here: I also think that Andersons death was nicely handled. Though the circumstances were a bit meh.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:42 .

[MegaSovereign]

But it's a big aspect. Shepard has been our avatar into this universe for five years now. His/her fate is important.

Yes, it is important. I never challenged that. But you originally said that the story stops if Shepard died. It doesn't stop if there's still a giant galaxy that's still there thanks to Shepard. Unless you meant Shepard's story...and even then whether he lives or dies, his story is over because it was entirely about the Reaper conflict.

Sure it's confirmation that Shepard survived. The initial blast at least. But you have to use meta information to take it any further "They wouldn't show that if he was going to die" and all that. Doesnt' really make the scene any more palatable to me. Taken strictly at face value, Shepard is still in a very, very bad way. Very easy to headcanon that he quietly bleeds out before anyone can find him

Assuming you've held your suspension of disbelief up until that point, you're basically cherry picking where realism should be applied to the narrative. Yes, it's fiction. If realism was applied, Shepard wouldn't have been able to even take a "last breath."

If you're not taking into account meta-factors, then that means you're still immersed into the fiction enough to have what must now be a pretty goddamn big suspension of disbelief. The main protagonist surviving an unlikely series of events is not a taboo in fiction.

We also don't see any of the things I listed happening. Any of which would do much to shore up the ambiguity of the scene and make it a far more probably "Shepard lives" scene

It's all subjective. Let's say one of those things are applied. It may please both of us, but you'll still have people who think Shepard died at the hospital...or the rescue team found his corpse..or bla bla.

Bioware wanted player agency. So no matter what you're going to have people interpret things the way they want.

I'm talking about adding more tools to the toolbox to help individual headcanons here. This is what makes the memorial scene in MEHEM work for me. Not that it's a happy celebratory reunion (it's not) but becasue I can see Shepard up and about, and imagine what comes next in his life. Not worry that he'll die before anyone realizes he was still alive on the Citadel.

In other words, you don't like the starting point of where you can start imagining what happens next. It's an understandable complaint. I wasn't trying to degrade the point you made. I'd love it if they added more context to the scene.

Still, I'm not going to be cynical (or to you "realistic," no need to quote Ashley again ) about what the game is presenting to me. I'm not gonna lie and say that meta-factors don't apply here, but it's not to the extreme. They're only part of why I believe Shepard survived. If the scene didn't exist, I would immediately assume he died.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Not sure i'll ever fully forgive them for the utter disrespect they showed regarding clarifying shep's fate.
Before extended cut there was no clarification for any ending but with EC they added clarification/expositionfor Shep's death in other endings but dumped the breath scene at the end, utterly disjointed and without the necessary exposition/clarification. Shows utter disrespect imo.

Blame the people on this board. Pre-EC almost everyone was talking about the EMS requirements for the breath clip. Only a handful of, bluntly, cranks took the position that the clip wasn't meaningful anyway.

Let's see

Lots of complaints about Shepard's inevitable death
Lots of complaints about the endings being unclear
Lots of complaints that the only hint at Shepard's survival required MP
Lots of requests for reunion scenes

How on Earth was Bioware supposed to realize that people wanted to see endings where Shepard survived?  

[Sir George Parr]

Basically if any of the elements that iakus has listed had featured in the ending. i'll pick Shepard in a hospital bed with li at bedside had appeared then i would be more than happy to move on from ME 3. Its with a moment like that where my imagination would take over, i would need nothing more of bioware after that point.
A movie and book can leave you with lingering questions as those forms of media offer you a different experience to a game.In a game you get to assume the role of the protagonist and have an interactive experience that no book or film can ever hope to give you. As a result you have a greater emotional attachment to your on screen alter ego. So when their fate has being left painfully ambiguous for no good reason. Is the breath cheyne stoking or something more positive.
The last time i watched a film with an ambiguous ending was 'drive' and that is open to interpretation in a good way as you see Ryan Goslings character in the aftermath of the ending.
When i think about even to have had Shepard with the rest of crew at the Normandy memorial on the ship would have being enough to end on a emotional high. Instead of feeling that you want to call the samaritans after playing the game because it a depressing experience to put yourself thorough.In 25 years of gaming i have never known such a depressing game.
In a visual media like a game its provided for you so i don't get "imagine", if i want to use my imagination i will read a book instead. The book i am reading at the moment is 'A Vertical Empire' by C.N. Hill.

[KiwiQuiche]

Apparently happiness is not 'in' anymore. Making a bittersweet end, that's all bitter with a shot of sweet in the eye is the way to go.

Honestly, they spend the last two games showing how Shepard achieves things no other person could, like stopping Sovereign, going on a Suicide Mission with no causalities, curing the genephage and having the Krogans and Turians become allies.

Then at the end it's like "LOL NO" and Shepard fails and only gets the get-go due to the dude controlling the Reapers and either dies via materialization or falls into debris and dies after taking a final breath. Yeah, great end Bioware.

EDIT: And yes, I wanted an END. A conclusion. Not this mess of open-ends and speculations and plotholes for fcuk sake.<_<

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:56 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Let's see

Lots of complaints about Shepard's inevitable death
Lots of complaints about the endings being unclear
Lots of complaints that the only hint at Shepard's survival required MP
Lots of requests for reunion scenes

How on Earth was Bioware supposed to realize that people wanted to see endings where Shepard survived?  

Well, I can tell you how I got there, anyway. (I'm not claiming any particular insights into Bio's thought processes, but the EC did confirm all of my personal interpretations of the ending -- hardly surprising to me since I thought those interpretations were obviously right in the first place.)

Of the four points you mention, one was wholly solved by the EC, and two are not obviously related to any supposed ambiguity about Shepard's survival -- even people who know Shepard survived asked for reunion scenes, and there were other unclear things about the endings. That leaves complaints about Shepard's inevitable death. I honestly didn't see very many of those, and fewer still if I discount posts that weren't made in good faith. ( I could name some names, but you know the kind of extreme haters I'm thinking of.)

Modifié par AlanC9, 19 janvier 2013 - 11:07 .

[Reorte]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, I can tell you how I got there, anyway. (I'm not claiming any particular insights into Bio's thought processes, but the EC did confirm all of my personal interpretations of the ending -- hardly surprising to me since I thought those interpretations were obviously right in the first place.)

Of the four points you mention, one was wholly solved by the EC, and two are not obviously related to any supposed ambiguity about Shepard's survival -- even people who know Shepard survived asked for reunion scenes, and there were other unclear things about the endings. That leaves complaints about Shepard's inevitable death. I honestly didn't see very many of those, and fewer still if I discount posts that weren't made in good faith. ( I could name some names, but you know the kind of extreme haters I'm thinking of.)

What people want and what they'll accept are two different things. A reunion scene makes a great deal of sense (payoff for the romance arc - at current the last you see of your LI is either them in a really very upset state, or hopeful without any real reason to be at best) but a conclusive "Shepard is definitely alive, no headcanon and having to guess the reason for a scene needed" scene would've probably turned all that down to minor grumbling.

Complaints about inevitable death are tied in with it; I'm not sure which group you lump me in with because there are some things I extremely hate. Well, life, the universe and everything if I'm going to be totally honest but there are shades even there. Oh, but not beer (as long as it's good beer).

[wright1978]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Not sure i'll ever fully forgive them for the utter disrespect they showed regarding clarifying shep's fate.
Before extended cut there was no clarification for any ending but with EC they added clarification/expositionfor Shep's death in other endings but dumped the breath scene at the end, utterly disjointed and without the necessary exposition/clarification. Shows utter disrespect imo.

Blame the people on this board. Pre-EC almost everyone was talking about the EMS requirements for the breath clip. Only a handful of, bluntly, cranks took the position that the clip wasn't meaningful anyway.

Let's see

Lots of complaints about Shepard's inevitable death
Lots of complaints about the endings being unclear
Lots of complaints that the only hint at Shepard's survival required MP
Lots of requests for reunion scenes

How on Earth was Bioware supposed to realize that people wanted to see endings where Shepard survived?  

Yeah there was a huge amount of comment regarding the railroading of Shep's fate, for clarification of the Shep breathes scene, re-union/rescue, closure

Bioware promise to add clarification and closure via an extended cut and then refuse to provide any for breathe scene and instead provide tonnes of clarification/closure for the other endings instead. Instead they dump the breathe scene at the end of the epilogue like a piece of garbage they couldn't care less about.

[Faust1979]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Apparently happiness is not 'in' anymore. Making a bittersweet end, that's all bitter with a shot of sweet in the eye is the way to go.

Honestly, they spend the last two games showing how Shepard achieves things no other person could, like stopping Sovereign, going on a Suicide Mission with no causalities, curing the genephage and having the Krogans and Turians become allies.

Then at the end it's like "LOL NO" and Shepard fails and only gets the get-go due to the dude controlling the Reapers and either dies via materialization or falls into debris and dies after taking a final breath. Yeah, great end Bioware.

EDIT: And yes, I wanted an END. A conclusion. Not this mess of open-ends and speculations and plotholes for fcuk sake.<_<

how do you know it's a final breath? it's obvious to me that Shepard is wounded yes but it doesn't mean he has to die. The breathing scene means that after all the crap he's gone through that he lives and won't succumb to his wounds.  This game does have an end and conclusions just not the ones you like. Why is it so bad to leave some speculations here and there? lots of fiction leaves certain things open to interpetation. Have video gamers become so uninmaginative they can't think of things on their own?

[Sundance31us]

Faust1979 wrote...

Have video gamers become so uninmaginative they can't think of things on their own?

A question I've been pondering for the last 10 months.

[dreamgazer]

Sundance31us wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

Have video gamers become so uninmaginative they can't think of things on their own?

A question I've been pondering for the last 10 months.

They can, if given the right tools.