1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

ajsrise wrote...

And i have a question. What in the hell was the point of the refusal ending?? Sure, i would love to shoot the little ass in the head, but i don't want to lose!

it's basically "screw everything you did, and all the time you wasted, but you lose, but don't worry, because the next cycle wins..."

Really?

Perhaps you missed it having joined late-May, but in the weeks after ME3's release a common viewpoint was, "I don't care if I lose, I want Shepard to stand up for what he believes in."

Then it's released and everyone forgets that first phrase and wants conventional victory.

Actually the common viewpoint was "I want to live or die based on all these fleets I've collected" though there was also the element of "I'd rather go down fighting than accept these horible chocies"

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Actually the common viewpoint was "I want to live or die based on all these fleets I've collected" though there was also the element of "I'd rather go down fighting than accept these horible chocies"

There wasn't one common viewpoint. There were quite a few, and dying with your morality intact was a common one. Since BW wanted to keep the three endings choices intact, it was the only suitable option while conventional victory was not.

[AB Souldier]

iakus wrote...

ajsrise wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

After a year? I don't think so.

You never know mate!
I am expecting a "Suprise! Here is the true real ending for ME3" any day now.

It may be just wishful thinking, but i really hope it's true..

Well like I said before, upcoming dlc is like buying a lottery ticket.  You know the odds of being a winner are miniscule.  But for a few hours or days, you can dream...

I Agree with you man.

CronoDragoon wrote...

Perhaps you missed it having joined late-May, but in the weeks after ME3's release a common viewpoint was, "I don't care if I lose, I want Shepard to stand up for what he believes in."

Then it's released and everyone forgets that first phrase and wants conventional victory.

Yeah, i don't think most people expected/wanted to lose. I think most people expected to fight for what they believe in and win, since, you know, it's the final game of the trilogy...

Modifié par ajsrise, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:20 .

[78stonewobble]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Perhaps you missed it having joined late-May, but in the weeks after ME3's release a common viewpoint was, "I don't care if I lose, I want Shepard to stand up for what he believes in."

Then it's released and everyone forgets that first phrase and wants conventional victory.

That's not quite true, atleast for my sake.

The loose scenario we got simpy doesn't do a good job at being a tragic but inevitable end. It's also not as much punishment for making objectively bad decisions as a leader, but rather a "punishment" for making what someone somewhere saw as wrong choice (or didn't like our dislike).

I've never expected conventional victory to end with anything but a loss. I did think a magical win device was necessary, but expected that thing to atleast not put me off within the game.

IMHO.

To me it boils down to. You can't really loose and you can't really win (even with 3 wins to pick from).

Neither of the supplied choices makes me happy, sad or even really bitter sweet. They're just mediocre tradeoffs.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:25 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

Actually the common viewpoint was "I want to live or die based on all these fleets I've collected" though there was also the element of "I'd rather go down fighting than accept these horible chocies"

There wasn't one common viewpoint. There were quite a few, and dying with your morality intact was a common one. Since BW wanted to keep the three endings choices intact, it was the only suitable option while conventional victory was not.

"Frak you!  Rocks fall, everyone dies!" is never a suitable option

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

"Frak you!  Rocks fall, everyone dies!" is never a suitable option

That's not what happens, but if you don't care to actually have a discussion about this, then that's fine with me.

[AB Souldier]

Each of the 4 choices made me feel depressed if i chose them. Control was something i was fighting against since the beginning, and so was synthesis(i also don't feel the right to change everyones DNA because i feel like it). Destroy was the major thing Shepard wanted to do, but the cost is not worth it. And refusal was just a giant slap in the face to me.

I use to be pro-drestroy, but now, i don't know...

Modifié par ajsrise, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:24 .

[thefallen2far]

There's a current belief among writers and producers of pop culture that death adds to the emotional impact of a product. Basically, if they want to emphasize the importance of the moment of the story, they'd add a sacrifice or a death scene. Unfortunately, if the surrounding moment is pedestrian, it comes off as forced. Comic books are extremely guilty ofthis nowadays. If you kill x character, the story will matter more. Of course if the story is bady presented, it never has the effect the writer was going for, but they can't reverse the action or else the writer feels it will undermind the importance of what they produced. Ironically, it's the exact opposite. By reverseing the impact, it's looked at more even keeled by future contributors to reflectthe story's intent.

One of the best examples is Death of Sherlock Holmes. It was a horrible short story. It's not until later versions of interpretations were first they reversed the death that it became the most notable of his stoylines. It was evolved, rewritten, adapted and fleshed out.

[CronoDragoon]

ajsrise wrote...

Each of the 4 choices made me feel depressed if i chose them. Control was something i was fighting against since the beginning, and so was synthesis(i also don't feel the right to change everyones DNA because i feel like it). Destroy was the major thing Shepard wanted to do, but the cost is not worth it. And refusal was just a giant slap in the face to me.

I use to be pro-drestroy, but now, i don't know...

I'm not really pro-anything. While I recognize the philosophical validity of picking Control or Synthesis as a Paragon or Renegade, neither really interested my Paragon. That left Destroy (originally) which had the unfortunate consequence of destroying the geth, thereby invalidating what was, to me, the most important subplot in the series. It leaves me in the awkward position of feeling that Control and Synthesis are probably better endings if they happen to interest you, while for Destroy they chose precisely the WRONG consequence to counterbalance Shepard dying in the other endings.

[AB Souldier]

CronoDragoon wrote...

ajsrise wrote...

Each of the 4 choices made me feel depressed if i chose them. Control was something i was fighting against since the beginning, and so was synthesis(i also don't feel the right to change everyones DNA because i feel like it). Destroy was the major thing Shepard wanted to do, but the cost is not worth it. And refusal was just a giant slap in the face to me.

I use to be pro-drestroy, but now, i don't know...

I'm not really pro-anything. While I recognize the philosophical validity of picking Control or Synthesis as a Paragon or Renegade, neither really interested my Paragon. That left Destroy (originally) which had the unfortunate consequence of destroying the geth, thereby invalidating what was, to me, the most important subplot in the series. It leaves me in the awkward position of feeling that Control and Synthesis are probably better endings if they happen to interest you, while for Destroy they chose precisely the WRONG consequence to counterbalance Shepard dying in the other endings.

I agree with the last sentence. Actually you make 100% sense. They did chose the WRONG consequence for the destroy ending. Why should i have to go through so much IN ME2 AND ME3 to create peace between the the Geth and Quarians if the Geth will be eliminated for chosing a choice that Shep wanted to do from the start.

Modifié par ajsrise, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:39 .

[78stonewobble]

Btw. I do get the argument against the happy ending of "it's war it's supposed to be dark".

That I understand though I don't agree with even war having only dark.


On the other hand I don't understand the argument. If there was a happy ending people (other people) would pick it / or pick nothing than it.

As long as you're not forced into picking the happy ending yourself but it's an option?

Why would anyone care?

It's like me getting annoyed that my nextdoor neighbour grilling outside isn't grilling the meat as I want it. Though I'm not invited and not eating any of it.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

"Frak you!  Rocks fall, everyone dies!" is never a suitable option

That's not what happens, but if you don't care to actually have a discussion about this, then that's fine with me.

"SO BE IT!  The cycle continues"  certainly sounded like a "Frak you!" to me.  Particularly after Shepard makes such a principled stand.  But whatever.

Bioware knew what was wanted and chose to deny it.  LEsson learned for me as a consumer

[Iakus]

78stonewobble wrote...

Btw. I do get the argument against the happy ending of "it's war it's supposed to be dark".

That I understand though I don't agree with even war having only dark.


On the other hand I don't understand the argument. If there was a happy ending people (other people) would pick it / or pick nothing than it.

As long as you're not forced into picking the happy ending yourself but it's an option?

Why would anyone care?

It's like me getting annoyed that my nextdoor neighbour grilling outside isn't grilling the meat as I want it. Though I'm not invited and not eating any of it.

I believe the term is called Dog in the Manger denying something others can use even if you don't need it.

[CronoDragoon]

On the other hand I don't understand the argument. If there was a happy
ending people (other people) would pick it / or pick nothing than it.

As long as you're not forced into picking the happy ending yourself but it's an option?

Why would anyone care?

Because a happy ending defeats the purpose of the moral quandary presented by having 3 clearly non-ideal options. While I don't believe everyone would choose a happy ending, I also believe that it would no longer be a tough decision. Of course, if you don't value tough decisions (and I don't mean that condescendingly. Sometimes you just want to get your way in a story) then obviously the design of the final choice exhibits little value for you. However, if you like tough decisions, then that's why you don't do a happy ending.

Again, it's not that everyone would choose the happy ending, but rather that it's no longer a tough moral decision in which you have to weigh many factors, potential consequences, etc.

One thing I do like about the current endings is just how many ways you can interpret possibly good or bad consequences for each. Giving a happy ending allows those who don't care about tough decisions to bypass the situation completely. Now you may say that this is a video game and based on ME1 and ME2 a relatively conventional story of triumph and that therefore ME3 should focus on satisfaction. I respect that viewpoint. But it's not the viewpoint that, ultimately, ME3 takes.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:44 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

"SO BE IT!  The cycle continues"  certainly sounded like a "Frak you!" to me.  Particularly after Shepard makes such a principled stand.  But whatever.

Bioware knew what was wanted and chose to deny it.  LEsson learned for me as a consumer

But you don't speak for everyone dissatisfied with the endings. Every time a conventional victory thread shows up, there are plenty of people that support it, and plenty who DON'T support it. The fanbase is by no means united about the possibility of successful Refuse.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

"SO BE IT!  The cycle continues"  certainly sounded like a "Frak you!" to me.  Particularly after Shepard makes such a principled stand.  But whatever.

Bioware knew what was wanted and chose to deny it.  LEsson learned for me as a consumer

But you don't speak for everyone dissatisfied with the endings. Every time a conventional victory thread shows up, there are plenty of people that support it, and plenty who DON'T support it. The fanbase is by no means united about the possibility of successful Refuse.

It's not really Refuse, though.  At least, I don't think so. It's being able to beat the Reapers without selling your soul to them.  And ideally, living to tell the tail.  That may come in the form of Refuse.  Or high EMS, or just reformatting StarJar's hard drive.

It's about having options and finding another way.  That's the wonderful thing about multiple endings, it provides a nice spread of options to please a wide number of people.

[AB Souldier]

CronoDragoon wrote...

On the other hand I don't understand the argument. If there was a happy
ending people (other people) would pick it / or pick nothing than it.

As long as you're not forced into picking the happy ending yourself but it's an option?

Why would anyone care?

Because a happy ending defeats the purpose of the moral quandary presented by having 3 clearly non-ideal options. While I don't believe everyone would choose a happy ending, I also believe that it would no longer be a tough decision. Of course, if you don't value tough decisions (and I don't mean that condescendingly. Sometimes you just want to get your way in a story) then obviously the design of the final choice exhibits little value for you. However, if you like tough decisions, then that's why you don't do a happy ending.

Again, it's not that everyone would choose the happy ending, but rather that it's no longer a tough moral decision in which you have to weigh many factors, potential consequences, etc.

One thing I do like about the current endings is just how many ways you can interpret possibly good or bad consequences for each. Giving a happy ending allows those who don't care about tough decisions to bypass the situation completely. Now you may say that this is a video game and based on ME1 and ME2 a relatively conventional story of triumph and that therefore ME3 should focus on satisfaction. I respect that viewpoint. But it's not the viewpoint that, ultimately, ME3 takes.

The thing is though, as a final game of a trilogy that lot of people took to heart, ME3 should of focused on satisfaction. I could see the tough/ morally challenge decisions being taken place in ME1 or ME2, but when you are talking about ending a trilogy with an ending that does not morally or emotionally satisfy the majority, then you know something was wrong in BWs choices.

Again, the Happy and/or Perfect ending doesn't have to be the only choice, (I really like ME2's system of buying parts for the ship, completing loyalty missions, ect affected the total outcome of the game) but it should of been there.

Modifié par ajsrise, 22 janvier 2013 - 05:04 .

[CronoDragoon]

ajsrise wrote...

The thing is though, as a final game of a trilogy that lot of people took to heart, ME3 should of focused on satisfaction. I could see the tough/ morally challenge decisions being taken place in ME1 or ME2, but when you are talking about ending a trilogy with an ending that does not morally or emotionally satisfy the majority, then you know something was wrong in BWs choices.

We have no idea whether or not it satisfied the majority. We know it dissatisfied enough people to get it altered, and that's it. Regardless, it's perfectly fine to feel that the endings should have focused on satisfaction instead of a tough choice. It's also perfectly fine to value tough choices over satisfaction. There has always been this tension in the ME games, way back to ME1, where despite the tagline boasting of "tough choices" you really aren't given that many, and either way you have a borderline "everything works out" ending.

Again, the Happy and/or Perfect ending doesn't have to be the only choice. I really like ME2's system of buying parts for the ship, completing loyalty missions, ect affected the total outcome of the game.

ME2 is actually interesting as it relates to this debate, because ME2 is a good example of a Happy ending really being the only palatable option, because in order not to get the happy ending you have to purposefully play the game worse, either by completing less content or making the wrong decisions.

Edit: A better example would be DA Origins, but people may feel differently about the Dark Ritual ending if BioWare ever decides to leverage the promised consequences inherent in the decision. Regardless, Origins is more of a "3 happy endings" paradigm, since what you sacrifice to achieve victory is comparatively very little. Mass Effect decides that you will potentially sacrifice a lot, and a lot of people didn't like that, which I can understand.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 22 janvier 2013 - 05:13 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

ME2 is actually interesting as it relates to this debate, because ME2 is a good example of a Happy ending really being the only palatable option, because in order not to get the happy ending you have to purposefully play the game worse, either by completing less content or making the wrong decisions.

Then how about DAO, where how you play unlocks a variety of options, allowing you to shape the endings, to the point where the Warden living or dying are both valid options, depending on how you played?

[Thore2k10]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

ME2 is actually interesting as it relates to this debate, because ME2 is a good example of a Happy ending really being the only palatable option, because in order not to get the happy ending you have to purposefully play the game worse, either by completing less content or making the wrong decisions.

Then how about DAO, where how you play unlocks a variety of options, allowing you to shape the endings, to the point where the Warden living or dying are both valid options, depending on how you played?

i was expecting something similar to this... where you can fly around in the end, visiting every important planet and talk to the important people you met, if you survived the final bettle with the reapers. then ending the game by going back to earth...  

whelp, couldnt have been much wronger

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

Then how about DAO, where how you play unlocks a variety of options, allowing you to shape the endings, to the point where the Warden living or dying are both valid options, depending on how you played?

I edited my post above almost as exactly as you posted!

I'll preface this by saying that I personally like the Dragon Age Origins endings more than the ME endings because of their customization options. But Origins isn't really an example of a happy ending being an option alongside a slew of morally grey options. All 3 endings are extremely positive, and there is no real tragedy present since the scope of the sacrifice is limited to one person (or no persons for DR). In other words, the player is not presented with any options that he could not rationalize into a happy ending. Even sacrificing himself is more poignant than sad.

The Origins endings and the ME endings represent the differing philosophies of the lead writers. Origins aimed to satisfy, while ME aimed to provoke a lot of debate and ethical argument. The EC, more than anything, represents a compromise by the writers to instill some satisfaction regarding the state of the universe and the characters post-ending while still maintaining what they believe to be the important design choice of the endings, which was to make you agonize over the choices.

I personally believe ME3 should have aimed to satisfy. I don't believe this was the series to install this particular type of ending. I think ME4 would have been the perfect place to start a new game that, for example, got rid of Paragon/Renegade options and aimed to be truly morally grey.

[AB Souldier]

CronoDragoon wrote...

ajsrise wrote...

The thing is though, as a final game of a trilogy that lot of people took to heart, ME3 should of focused on satisfaction. I could see the tough/ morally challenge decisions being taken place in ME1 or ME2, but when you are talking about ending a trilogy with an ending that does not morally or emotionally satisfy the majority, then you know something was wrong in BWs choices.

We have no idea whether or not it satisfied the majority. We know it dissatisfied enough people to get it altered, and that's it. Regardless, it's perfectly fine to feel that the endings should have focused on satisfaction instead of a tough choice. It's also perfectly fine to value tough choices over satisfaction. There has always been this tension in the ME games, way back to ME1, where despite the tagline boasting of "tough choices" you really aren't given that many, and either way you have a borderline "everything works out" ending.

Again, the Happy and/or Perfect ending doesn't have to be the only choice. I really like ME2's system of buying parts for the ship, completing loyalty missions, ect affected the total outcome of the game.

ME2 is actually interesting as it relates to this debate, because ME2 is a good example of a Happy ending really being the only palatable option, because in order not to get the happy ending you have to purposefully play the game worse, either by completing less content or making the wrong decisions.

Edit: A better example would be DA Origins, but people may feel differently about the Dark Ritual ending if BioWare ever decides to leverage the promised consequences inherent in the decision. Regardless, Origins is more of a "3 happy endings" paradigm, since what you sacrifice to achieve victory is comparatively very little. Mass Effect decides that you will potentially sacrifice a lot, and a lot of people didn't like that, which I can understand.

I assume it's the majority since a lot of people took time out of their own days to argue and fight for a new ending (EC DLC), and even though people got some closure on the ending, i can see that most people are still not satisfied (because most people who post here in my thread are for the happy / perfect ending and not against it.

As For ME2, the fact is your choices made the ending. What you did and if you did loyalty missions or got the right ship upgrades, you get the happy ending, but only because you chose to do all the extras. 

[CronoDragoon]

ajsrise wrote...

I assume it's the majority since a lot of people took time out of their own days to argue and fight for a new ending (EC DLC), and even though people got some closure on the ending, i can see that most people are still not satisfied (because most people who post here in my thread are for the happy / perfect ending and not against it.

Well sure, if you want to say the majority of people posting in this thread are dissatisfied then I can't argue. But there's no obvious correlation between this sample size and the ME fanbase at large. As someone who posted asking for revised/alternate endings after the game was released, I don't understand why people can't be content by the fact that clearly enough people were dissatisfied to provoke a change.

As For ME2, the fact is your choices made the ending. What you did and if you did loyalty missions or got the right ship upgrades, you get the happy ending, but only because you chose to do all the extras.

Well sure, but now we are discussing how your previous choices affected the endings, which is separate from a discussion about the possibility of a happy ending alongside three non-happy endings, and whether or not the non-happy endings can maintain their relevance.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 22 janvier 2013 - 05:30 .

[garrusfan1]

with great anger: i wish they would make a happy ending possible instead of a depressing one

[AB Souldier]

CronoDragoon wrote...

ajsrise wrote...

I assume it's the majority since a lot of people took time out of their own days to argue and fight for a new ending (EC DLC), and even though people got some closure on the ending, i can see that most people are still not satisfied (because most people who post here in my thread are for the happy / perfect ending and not against it.

Well sure, if you want to say the majority of people posting in this thread are dissatisfied then I can't argue. But there's no obvious correlation between this sample size and the ME fanbase at large. As someone who posted asking for revised/alternate endings after the game was released, I don't understand why people can't be content by the fact that clearly enough people were dissatisfied to provoke a change.

As For ME2, the fact is your choices made the ending. What you did and if you did loyalty missions or got the right ship upgrades, you get the happy ending, but only because you chose to do all the extras.

Well sure, but now we are discussing how your previous choices affected the endings, which is separate from a discussion about the possibility of a happy ending alongside three non-happy endings, and whether or not the non-happy endings can maintain their relevance.

My point about ME2 was about how the happy ending was achieved. I don't have a problem with multiple endings, i just want a happy ending that doesnt make me depressed after finishing the last of shepards story.