1258 réponses à ce sujet

[NeroonWilliams]

sharkboy421 wrote...

I was hoping for a tiered ending that was dependent on several factors based on your choices through out the game.  In my head I had an idea of 4 different tiers. The fourth ending was the worst; the reapers win.  Third the reapers lose but the galaxy is devastated; Shep and most of her crew dies.  Second ending is a better version of the third; still a lot of destruction and Shep is dead but her crew is alive and the galaxy is not crippled.  First would be best and hardest to reach; galaxy is severly wounded still but it can recover, Shep and crew all alive.

You may not want to hear this, but apart from Shepard dying, that's exactly what we got with respectively: Refuse, Destroy, Control, and Synthesis.  I'm going to play the Ben Kenobi card.  That's EXACTLY what we got; from a certain point of view.

[AB Souldier]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

How is the Extended Cut not a happy ending? On a high EMS, pretty much every choice works out for the best, with the galaxy saved and given the opportunity to thrive. Really, the only difference is a few variations on character deaths, but given the nature of the game and the atmosphere they are going for, an ultra-golden ending where everybody lives would feel simply out of place and possibly even cheapen the conflict.

I disagree with the idea that picking control or synthesis goes against what we've spent the whole trilogy doing. We've spent the whole trilogy trying to stop the Reapers and both those choices accomplish that. The fact remains that they are both controversial in different ways, but difficult, controversial choices are pretty much a staple of the series, so it is a bit naive to think there'd be a way out of it. The fact that the Illusive Man and Saren (loosely in the latter's case) advocated those methods does not mean anything. For a start, they're both dead so nobody is going to be standing behind you as you do it going "nyeeeh, I told you so!"

"a few variations on character deaths"

This is wrong. You sacrifice all of the Geth, and after what Legion does, i see no reason why the Geth and EDI (because i love Seth Green) should of died. You can't say that picking control doesn't goes against what we were fighting for, and i guess synthesis depends on how you see it. I don't think i have a right as 1 human to decide if everyone should be half sythetic. That's why it's not a happy ending.

Modifié par ajsrise, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:23 .

[AB Souldier]

sharkboy421 wrote...

NeroonWilliams wrote...

The death of Shepard was always planned. There was foreshadowing all the way back to ME1 with Shaira. And if you didn't get the message that kept coming at you all throughout ME3, you really weren't paying attention (it comes during Palaven, after Tuchanka, during Thane's death, after Thessia, every time you talk to Garrus on the Normandy, all of the dream sequences, when Liara introduces the time capsule, and a majority of the final talks with your squadmates during Priority:Earth). Shepard was always meant to be a sacrificial hero, because some victories are meant to be Pyrrhic, no matter how well you prepare.

I personally disagree because while Shepard always faced very long odds, she always comes out ahead.  One thing that I personally always felt through out the ME series was a sense of hope.  Even in the face of Sovereign and then later the Collectors and the Omega 4 relay, I got this sense that somehow Shepard was going to pull it out.  I felt this way through almost all of ME3 as well (at least until the beam run).

Now, I could have accepted a heroic sacrifice of Shepard at the end of 3 had it fit and felt worthy of Shepard.  I would have hated it, but I could have accepted it.  I do not feel the current endings offer this but that is another issue. 

To the OP, I do not see why ME3 can't have a happy ending but I don't think it should be the "deafult" ending either.  I was hoping for a tiered ending that was dependent on several factors based on your choices through out the game.  In my head I had an idea of 4 different tiers. The fourth ending was the worst; the reapers win.  Third the reapers lose but the galaxy is devastated; Shep and most of her crew dies.  Second ending is a better version of the third; still a lot of destruction and Shep is dead but her crew is alive and the galaxy is not crippled.  First would be best and hardest to reach; galaxy is severly wounded still but it can recover, Shep and crew all alive.

I agree that it shoudn't be the default ending, but that wasn't the point. My point was that there shoud be a happy ending because over the years, most people grew a connection with the game and its characters.

[Bill Casey]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

How is the Extended Cut not a happy ending? On a high EMS, pretty much every choice works out for the best, with the galaxy saved and given the opportunity to thrive. Really, the only difference is a few variations on character deaths, but given the nature of the game and the atmosphere they are going for, an ultra-golden ending where everybody lives would feel simply out of place and possibly even cheapen the conflict.

I disagree with the idea that picking control or synthesis goes against what we've spent the whole trilogy doing. We've spent the whole trilogy trying to stop the Reapers and both those choices accomplish that. The fact remains that they are both controversial in different ways, but difficult, controversial choices are pretty much a staple of the series, so it is a bit naive to think there'd be a way out of it. The fact that the Illusive Man and Saren (loosely in the latter's case) advocated those methods does not mean anything. For a start, they're both dead so nobody is going to be standing behind you as you do it going "nyeeeh, I told you so!"

All choices are completely and utterly monstrous...
Disgustingly awful soul crushing war crimes...

The only way to save the current cycle is by symbolically sacrificing all that is good and decent and worth saving about the galaxy...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:34 .

[capn233]

ajsrise wrote...

I agree that it shoudn't be the default ending, but that wasn't the point. My point was that there shoud be a happy ending because over the years, most people grew a connection with the game and its characters.

Synthesis is the intended happy ending, if your definition of happy does not include Shepard surviving.

[MegaSovereign]

Bill Casey wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

How is the Extended Cut not a happy ending? On a high EMS, pretty much every choice works out for the best, with the galaxy saved and given the opportunity to thrive. Really, the only difference is a few variations on character deaths, but given the nature of the game and the atmosphere they are going for, an ultra-golden ending where everybody lives would feel simply out of place and possibly even cheapen the conflict.

I disagree with the idea that picking control or synthesis goes against what we've spent the whole trilogy doing. We've spent the whole trilogy trying to stop the Reapers and both those choices accomplish that. The fact remains that they are both controversial in different ways, but difficult, controversial choices are pretty much a staple of the series, so it is a bit naive to think there'd be a way out of it. The fact that the Illusive Man and Saren (loosely in the latter's case) advocated those methods does not mean anything. For a start, they're both dead so nobody is going to be standing behind you as you do it going "nyeeeh, I told you so!"

All choices are completely and utterly monstrous...
Disgustingly awful soul crushing war crimes...

The only way to save the current cycle is by symbolically sacrificing all that is good and decent and worth saving about the galaxy...

Surely you're giving the Geth a little too much credit...

[NeroonWilliams]

ajsrise wrote...

sharkboy421 wrote...

To the OP, I do not see why ME3 can't have a happy ending but I don't think it should be the "deafult" ending either.  I was hoping for a tiered ending that was dependent on several factors based on your choices through out the game.  In my head I had an idea of 4 different tiers. The fourth ending was the worst; the reapers win.  Third the reapers lose but the galaxy is devastated; Shep and most of her crew dies.  Second ending is a better version of the third; still a lot of destruction and Shep is dead but her crew is alive and the galaxy is not crippled.  First would be best and hardest to reach; galaxy is severly wounded still but it can recover, Shep and crew all alive.

I agree that it shoudn't be the default ending, but that wasn't the point. My point was that there shoud be a happy ending because over the years, most people grew a connection with the game and its characters.

Problem with that reasoning, ajsrise, is that just its existence would make it the default ending (not the easiest, but the default).  The creators wanted a sacrifice with thought on the part of the player.  If you are presented with a choice of the galaxy is better off, or the galaxy is better off and so are you, which do you choose (as attested by all the players that choose Destroy JUST because Shepard "lives")?  The only way to get that "happy" ending that many players for some inexplicable reason seem to NEED, and still fulfill the writer's intention would probably be even more abhorrent to those same players: Shepard gets to live "happily ever after", but the galaxy must suffer because of Shepard's selfishness.  Now THAT would have made a worthy dilemma. 

Modifié par NeroonWilliams, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:43 .

[Iakus]

Bill Casey wrote...

All choices are completely and utterly monstrous...
Disgustingly awful soul crushing war crimes...

The only way to save the current cycle is by symbolically sacrificing all that is good and decent and worth saving about the galaxy...

+1

[MegaSovereign]

capn233 wrote...

ajsrise wrote...

I agree that it shoudn't be the default ending, but that wasn't the point. My point was that there shoud be a happy ending because over the years, most people grew a connection with the game and its characters.

Synthesis is the intended happy ending, if your definition of happy does not include Shepard surviving.

If that was intention then Bioware failed. I had only one Shepard who picked Synthesis and he was incredibly pessimistic about the galaxy.

[Kataphrut94]

Bill Casey wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

How is the Extended Cut not a happy ending? On a high EMS, pretty much every choice works out for the best, with the galaxy saved and given the opportunity to thrive. Really, the only difference is a few variations on character deaths, but given the nature of the game and the atmosphere they are going for, an ultra-golden ending where everybody lives would feel simply out of place and possibly even cheapen the conflict.

I disagree with the idea that picking control or synthesis goes against what we've spent the whole trilogy doing. We've spent the whole trilogy trying to stop the Reapers and both those choices accomplish that. The fact remains that they are both controversial in different ways, but difficult, controversial choices are pretty much a staple of the series, so it is a bit naive to think there'd be a way out of it. The fact that the Illusive Man and Saren (loosely in the latter's case) advocated those methods does not mean anything. For a start, they're both dead so nobody is going to be standing behind you as you do it going "nyeeeh, I told you so!"

All choices are completely and utterly monstrous...
Disgustingly awful soul crushing war crimes...

The only way to save the current cycle is by symbolically sacrificing all that is good and decent and worth saving about the galaxy...

If that's what it takes so the survivors can go on living, then that's what it takes. The end justifies the means. The control choice is hardly sacrificing anything anyway. All you're doing is telling the Reapers to stop killing everyone and start cleaning up the mess they made. Even synthesis is debatable since no one was killed.

[AB Souldier]

capn233 wrote...

ajsrise wrote...

I agree that it shoudn't be the default ending, but that wasn't the point. My point was that there shoud be a happy ending because over the years, most people grew a connection with the game and its characters.

Synthesis is the intended happy ending, if your definition of happy does not include Shepard surviving.

My definition of a happy ending is destroying the reapers while everyone else (doesn't have to include shep himself) lives. If people want the reapers to live, then synthesis should be another option besides the one i am giving IMO.

[BleedingUranium]

Because the theme of the series is "victory through sacrifice".

And because Mass Effect 3 doesn't have an ending yet.

[daigakuinsei]

This is my biggest problem with the entire series. I just wanted my darn happy ending. Time to make my own real life happy story instead of video gaming

[NeroonWilliams]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Because the theme of the series is "victory through sacrifice".

And because Mass Effect 3 doesn't have an ending yet.

Mass Effect 3 is a steak. Some realise it's a steak, while others think it's just a badly made hamburger.

And some people don't realize that the finishing butter has already been applied to the steak.  It may not have been an exceptional composed butter (like Parmesan or anchovie), but that butter is all we're going to get.

[MegaSovereign]

I ****ing love steak.

[Bill Casey]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

The end justifies the means.

What a disgusting hopeless message...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:55 .

[movieguyabw]

NeroonWilliams wrote...

The death of Shepard was always planned. There was foreshadowing all the way back to ME1 with Shaira. And if you didn't get the message that kept coming at you all throughout ME3, you really weren't paying attention (it comes during Palaven, after Tuchanka, during Thane's death, after Thessia, every time you talk to Garrus on the Normandy, all of the dream sequences, when Liara introduces the time capsule, and a majority of the final talks with your squadmates during Priority:Earth). Shepard was always meant to be a sacrificial hero, because some victories are meant to be Pyrrhic, no matter how well you prepare.

Uhm,  sorry have to ask, what are you talking about with Shaira?  I'm assuming you mean the consort, right?  (I tend to get her confused with the Asari on Feros)

The consort told me I was a survivor and that I'd always be a survivor.  Don't know if she tells you something completely different with a Ruthless character, or a War Hero, but Sole Survivor gives the impression everything's going to turn out well in the end - at least as far as I recall.


As for the message, again, sorry, must not have been paying attention because I didn't notice anything on Palaven, Tuchanka, Thessia, when I talked to Garrus, or the talks with my squaddies on Priority Earth that would suggest Shep would die.

Sure, there's the whole "bar in heaven" exchange with Garrus, but you can take that conversation in a different direction and basically tell Garrus that no one will die today.  Same with all the other Squad dialogues.


Actually, the one place I noticed heavy foreshadowing to Shep's death was when you infiltrate the Geth ship and save Legion.  There are a lot of very close calls with Shep in that mission to the point where it feels like the game is sitting there saying "look at this.  You won't always be this lucky."


But even with that, there's no reason that Shep *needed* to be a martyr.

[BleedingUranium]

NeroonWilliams wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Because the theme of the series is "victory through sacrifice".

And because Mass Effect 3 doesn't have an ending yet.

Mass Effect 3 is a steak. Some realise it's a steak, while others think it's just a badly made hamburger.

And some people don't realize that the finishing butter has already been applied to the steak.  It may not have been an exceptional composed butter (like Parmesan or anchovie), but that butter is all we're going to get.

I think you missed the point off my analogy

[BleedingUranium]

NeroonWilliams wrote...

The death of Shepard was always planned. There was foreshadowing all the way back to ME1 with Shaira. And if you didn't get the message that kept coming at you all throughout ME3, you really weren't paying attention (it comes during Palaven, after Tuchanka, during Thane's death, after Thessia, every time you talk to Garrus on the Normandy, all of the dream sequences, when Liara introduces the time capsule, and a majority of the final talks with your squadmates during Priority:Earth). Shepard was always meant to be a sacrificial hero, because some victories are meant to be Pyrrhic, no matter how well you prepare.

And yet, Shepard can live.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 19 janvier 2013 - 06:10 .

[movieguyabw]

BleedingUranium wrote...

movieguyabw wrote...

The death of Shepard was always planned. There was foreshadowing all the way back to ME1 with Shaira. And if you didn't get the message that kept coming at you all throughout ME3, you really weren't paying attention (it comes during Palaven, after Tuchanka, during Thane's death, after Thessia, every time you talk to Garrus on the Normandy, all of the dream sequences, when Liara introduces the time capsule, and a majority of the final talks with your squadmates during Priority:Earth). Shepard was always meant to be a sacrificial hero, because some victories are meant to be Pyrrhic, no matter how well you prepare.

And yet, Shepard can live.

Uhm, I didn't say this, mate. 

[dreamgazer]

I'm hungry now.

[sharkboy421]

NeroonWilliams wrote...

Problem with that reasoning, ajsrise, is that just its existence would make it the default ending (not the easiest, but the default). 

I'm still not sure I agree.  Going to back to the Suicide Mission in ME2, in the best ending, everyone lives.  And its really not all that hard to get.  But I know a lot of people who, depending on how they decided to play a particular Shepard, did not achieve that "best" ending.  They knew how to get it if they wanted, but they chose to play that particular Shepard in a way that got several characters killed.  I believe a similar situation would again in ME3 with "tiered" endings.

Also, in regards to your previous response to my statement, you mentioned that we did get tiered endings "from a certain point of view."  I kind of see that (I think), but I whole-heartedly disagree.  The issue for me is not the outcome of each choice but the underlying premise of each choice.  I find the entire ending premise to be thematically and narratively inconsistent with the rest of triolgy.  I do not wish to pick a fight or push my views onto, I just realize that my original statement was a little vague and I wanted to clarify where I was coming from.

[BleedingUranium]

movieguyabw wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

movieguyabw wrote...

The death of Shepard was always planned. There was foreshadowing all the way back to ME1 with Shaira. And if you didn't get the message that kept coming at you all throughout ME3, you really weren't paying attention (it comes during Palaven, after Tuchanka, during Thane's death, after Thessia, every time you talk to Garrus on the Normandy, all of the dream sequences, when Liara introduces the time capsule, and a majority of the final talks with your squadmates during Priority:Earth). Shepard was always meant to be a sacrificial hero, because some victories are meant to be Pyrrhic, no matter how well you prepare.

And yet, Shepard can live.

Uhm, I didn't say this, mate. 

Oops, I quoted yours and snipped the wrong name; I'll fix it

[NeroonWilliams]

movieguyabw wrote...

NeroonWilliams wrote...

The death of Shepard was always planned. There was foreshadowing all the way back to ME1 with Shaira. And if you didn't get the message that kept coming at you all throughout ME3, you really weren't paying attention (it comes during Palaven, after Tuchanka, during Thane's death, after Thessia, every time you talk to Garrus on the Normandy, all of the dream sequences, when Liara introduces the time capsule, and a majority of the final talks with your squadmates during Priority:Earth). Shepard was always meant to be a sacrificial hero, because some victories are meant to be Pyrrhic, no matter how well you prepare.

Uhm,  sorry have to ask, what are you talking about with Shaira?  I'm assuming you mean the consort, right?  (I tend to get her confused with the Asari on Feros)

The consort told me I was a survivor and that I'd always be a survivor.  Don't know if she tells you something completely different with a Ruthless character, or a War Hero, but Sole Survivor gives the impression everything's going to turn out well in the end - at least as far as I recall.


As for the message, again, sorry, must not have been paying attention because I didn't notice anything on Palaven, Tuchanka, Thessia, when I talked to Garrus, or the talks with my squaddies on Priority Earth that would suggest Shep would die.

Sure, there's the whole "bar in heaven" exchange with Garrus, but you can take that conversation in a different direction and basically tell Garrus that no one will die today.  Same with all the other Squad dialogues.


Actually, the one place I noticed heavy foreshadowing to Shep's death was when you infiltrate the Geth ship and save Legion.  There are a lot of very close calls with Shep in that mission to the point where it feels like the game is sitting there saying "look at this.  You won't always be this lucky."


But even with that, there's no reason that Shep *needed* to be a martyr.

Maybe I am just a pessimist, but I went into ME3 expecting Shepard to sacrifice him/herself.

Shaira (Yes, the Consort.  The green Asari is named Shiala) tells you that all these things have shaped who you are but they are not who you will become.  This is a common literary precursor to a Messiannic figure

It is entirely possible that I read more into those situations than others.  At the very least, Garrus is not altogether optomistic about our chances every time you talk to him; he's a realist.

But, if you didn't get the message from the final dream sequence (when Shepard burns with the kid), you REALLY are not paying attention to the sledgehammer the writers are using to say that Shepard's days are numbered.

[CronoDragoon]

Because BioWare decided they wanted bittersweet instead. It's not really a compelling reason, but it's no less arbitrary than fans feeling like they deserved a happy ending.