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Why can't Mass Effect 3 have a happy ending?


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#576
AlanC9

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Demarco09 wrote...
To be honest, why can't we have both? 

Happy for those who feel their cannon shep deserved one. Sad/self-sacrifice for those who thought their shep best suited a sad type of ending. And all the ones in between those two....  This is an RPG right?  All your choices matter right?
So what is wrong with making all these different endings fit an RPG type of game where choices matter and each character gets what the player feels suits their cannon shep????


We already have that. Shepard lives if you sacrifice the geth, doesn't if you don't.

#577
Demarco09

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AlanC9 wrote...

Demarco09 wrote...
To be honest, why can't we have both? 

Happy for those who feel their cannon shep deserved one. Sad/self-sacrifice for those who thought their shep best suited a sad type of ending. And all the ones in between those two....  This is an RPG right?  All your choices matter right?
So what is wrong with making all these different endings fit an RPG type of game where choices matter and each character gets what the player feels suits their cannon shep????


We already have that. Shepard lives if you sacrifice the geth, doesn't if you don't.


I am talking about more in depth endings....not the RGB endings we have now. If you read most of the other topics you'll see I was implying that there is no real "happy" ending that a lot of folks expected on here. There is all the sacrificing yourself endings you could ever want...and then there is....a breath. I don't know about the rest of the folks here...but that isn't exactly happy in my book.  Hell if it is for you, great, I wish it was for me.

#578
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

Demarco09 wrote...
To be honest, why can't we have both? 

Happy for those who feel their cannon shep deserved one. Sad/self-sacrifice for those who thought their shep best suited a sad type of ending. And all the ones in between those two....  This is an RPG right?  All your choices matter right?
So what is wrong with making all these different endings fit an RPG type of game where choices matter and each character gets what the player feels suits their cannon shep????


We already have that. Shepard lives if you sacrifice the geth, doesn't if you don't.


One gasp from a faceless torso (where the chest barely moves) after commiting genocide=Watching Shepard disintigrate on screen?


Yeah, total equivalencey there :lol:

#579
AlanC9

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Demarco09 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Demarco09 wrote...
Happy for those who feel their cannon shep deserved one. Sad/self-sacrifice for those who thought their shep best suited a sad type of ending. And all the ones in between those two....  This is an RPG right?  All your choices matter right?
So what is wrong with making all these different endings fit an RPG type of game where choices matter and each character gets what the player feels suits their cannon shep????


We already have that. Shepard lives if you sacrifice the geth, doesn't if you don't.

I am talking about more in depth endings....not the RGB endings we have now. If you read most of the other topics you'll see I was implying that there is no real "happy" ending that a lot of folks expected on here. There is all the sacrificing yourself endings you could ever want...and then there is....a breath. I don't know about the rest of the folks here...but that isn't exactly happy in my book.  Hell if it is for you, great, I wish it was for me. 


So the problem is "depth" rather than happiness? The endings we have now would be OK if they... had more cutscenes?

#580
AlanC9

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iakus wrote...
One gasp from a faceless torso (where the chest barely moves) after commiting genocide=Watching Shepard disintigrate on screen?

Yeah, total equivalencey there :lol:


I don't think I'll ever understand why some folks seem unable to grasp the meaning of that clip.

#581
CronoDragoon

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Kabraxal wrote...

For a renegade, certainly.  And that might be the divide... these choices only serve one style of renegade and no other Shepard.  


But you used the exact same reasoning to justify a Paragon Shepard refusing Synthesis. Either we make our decisions in accordance with the consent of the many or we don't. If we do, then Destroy is not a problem. Since I don't think you want to say that, then it seems there is something outside the consent of the people that must be considered when judging Paragon/Renegade. In such a case, we need to rely on two things:

1. What Shepard believes is the right thing to do.
2. How he brings about what he believes is the right thing.

The answer to #1 in the case of Synthesis is twofold: stopping the Reapers and solving the organic/synthetic conflict without bloodshed. The first is both P/R while the second is more Paragon than Renegade. The question then becomes whether or not using the Crucible to alter the DNA of organics is Renegade without relying on consent arguments. But that is impossible. The entirety of the objection is based on consent, because in a hypothetical situation where Shepard called everyone and somehow, everyone miraculously agreed to Synthesis, and then he fired the Crucible, there'd be no moral dilemma.

To rely on the consent "of everyone" is to invalidate ALL of Shepard's Paragon decisions during the games. Universal consent is an impossible idea. Is curing the genophage less Paragon because Shepard had to drag the salarians along kicking and screaming? I don't think so. You could even argue that curing the genophage is MORE Paragon because Shepard "did the right thing" in the face of dissent.

With all that being said, is an alternate path for Synthesis that aligns more fully with Paragon ideals possible? Of course! Is the current Synthesis ending "less Paragon" than an ending wherein Shepard's sacrifice provides the data for the possibility of permanent organic/synthetic integration, and that individuals can choose whether or not to do the procedure that would allow this integration? Yes, but notice that in altering the ending in this way, we have also surely determined the impossibility of it being a solution to the organic/synthetic conflict since, as you say, not everyone will agree to it. And finally, identifying the possibility of a "more" Paragon ending does not make the current ending "Renegade."

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 23 janvier 2013 - 12:22 .


#582
Gulaman

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Shep saved the galaxy from annihilation. That's a happy enough ending for me.

#583
Iakus

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AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...
One gasp from a faceless torso (where the chest barely moves) after commiting genocide=Watching Shepard disintigrate on screen?

Yeah, total equivalencey there :lol:


I don't think I'll ever understand why some folks seem unable to grasp the meaning of that clip.


I grasp it just fine.

Easter egg. A hint.  A hook for a sequel that will never be made.  A throwaway scene that people must grasp like a lifeline due to the sheer bleakness of all the endings.

#584
Faust1979

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Gulaman wrote...

Shep saved the galaxy from annihilation. That's a happy enough ending for me.


I agree why do you need anything else? and from what I hear if you choose synthesis it becomes the perfect Utopia but without seeing it myself I can't actually say for certain. It seems like some people want big parades and people high fiving each other, not sure what else they really expected

#585
Iakus

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Faust1979 wrote...

Gulaman wrote...

Shep saved the galaxy from annihilation. That's a happy enough ending for me.


I agree why do you need anything else? and from what I hear if you choose synthesis it becomes the perfect Utopia but without seeing it myself I can't actually say for certain. It seems like some people want big parades and people high fiving each other, not sure what else they really expected


No Utopia.  No parade.  Just an ending Shepard can walk away from with body and soul intact.


Image IPB

#586
Meltemph

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Faust1979 wrote...

Gulaman wrote...

Shep saved the galaxy from annihilation. That's a happy enough ending for me.


I agree why do you need anything else? and from what I hear if you choose synthesis it becomes the perfect Utopia but without seeing it myself I can't actually say for certain. It seems like some people want big parades and people high fiving each other, not sure what else they really expected


Well, to me, that is why no ending makes me happy.  Happy to me means I can realisticly forsee a continuation of the setting, beyond prequels.  As it stands, the setting is dead, outside of prequals(thanks to the reaper story arc).  For anyone who stayed around for the scifi setting, not the reapers, I'm not sure how you are not disapointed, honestly(unless you assume a handwave or retcon).

I will say though, it is incredibly disappointing to me, that it appears, a lot of the people who disliked the ending would have been happy enough with it, as long as they got their romantic/superhappyfuntime ending.

Modifié par Meltemph, 23 janvier 2013 - 01:23 .


#587
Tyrannosaurus Rex

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iakus wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

Gulaman wrote...

Shep saved the galaxy from annihilation. That's a happy enough ending for me.


I agree why do you need anything else? and from what I hear if you choose synthesis it becomes the perfect Utopia but without seeing it myself I can't actually say for certain. It seems like some people want big parades and people high fiving each other, not sure what else they really expected


No Utopia.  No parade.  Just an ending Shepard can walk away from with body and soul intact.


Indeed. You could very easily maintain a bittersweet feel to the ending if it ended with some sort of cerimonial service for Anderson.

#588
Iakus

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Lizardviking wrote...

iakus wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

Gulaman wrote...

Shep saved the galaxy from annihilation. That's a happy enough ending for me.


I agree why do you need anything else? and from what I hear if you choose synthesis it becomes the perfect Utopia but without seeing it myself I can't actually say for certain. It seems like some people want big parades and people high fiving each other, not sure what else they really expected


No Utopia.  No parade.  Just an ending Shepard can walk away from with body and soul intact.


Indeed. You could very easily maintain a bittersweet feel to the ending if it ended with some sort of cerimonial service for Anderson.


Like the pic in my above post, say?  Taken from MEHEM :whistle:

#589
Reorte

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Faust1979 wrote...

Gulaman wrote...

Shep saved the galaxy from annihilation. That's a happy enough ending for me.


I agree why do you need anything else? and from what I hear if you choose synthesis it becomes the perfect Utopia but without seeing it myself I can't actually say for certain. It seems like some people want big parades and people high fiving each other, not sure what else they really expected

Er, no, they just want something for the things they care about in the game, namely the characters, Shepard in particular. What happiness there is in the ending is entirely impersonal. Friends and LI of Shepard, whislt presumably glad that the war is over, are going to be doing more grieving than celebrating. Tell a soldier returning from war, friends and family dead, to cheer up because his side won. That'll go down well, won't it?

#590
vallore

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

vallore wrote...
<snip>


And this was a perfectly happy ending for the type of character I played in the game. Either was BFF with Morrigan or if I played a male warden romanced Morrigan found her in Witchhunt and didn't fight her or if male ran off with her.



Imo, to be a perfect happy ending it requires the following: Our character must trust Morrigan totally. No doubts, no reservations. Not only about her motives, (hey, it's Morrigan), but also about her understanding of what she is doing and competence about it. It can be a lot to ask, considering what is on the line and refusal to clarify what her intentions are.

Further, as we know, she disappears at the end of the game; that denies the happy ending even if complete trust exists…

I would point that the DLC that allows the warden to rejoin morrigan only came much later. It seems to me that the DA devs listened to their fans, and provided extra content, entirely optional, with more closure to Morrigan’s romance, for those that wanted it. More kudos for them for doing so. :)

#591
AB Souldier

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Demarco09 wrote...

ajsrise wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

Bioware should have had ME3 like endings in ME2, and had ME2 like endings in ME3.

Have our bleak, second chapter actually have choices that would fit its darker nature. Have the second game break and destroy our hero. And let the third be the one where they can rise from the ashes and earn their happy ending.

Or maybe wanting such a story is too childish? :?


Not childish at all. People got attached to the ME series and naturally you would think that the last game of the trilogy would end happily. Sadly, BW doesn't think so and put the bittersweet ending, which i would of been ok with, if it wasn't the last game of the trilogy.


To be honest, why can't we have both?

Happy for those who feel their cannon shep deserved one. Sad/self-sacrifice for those who thought their shep best suited a sad type of ending. And all the ones in between those two....  This is an RPG right?  All your choices matter right?
So what is wrong with making all these different endings fit an RPG type of game where choices matter and each character gets what the player feels suits their cannon shep????

Honestly, this is what gets me about the way they handled the ending. They put so much emphasis on players "feeling" and having "emotions" in their last game of the trilogy.  Why the heck didn't they think that "happy" wasn't an emotion? I was getting to the point where I pretty much expected Bioware to make this an advanced RPG of some type, I mean after all it is their baby, and to exceed all expectations of an RPG. I figured some type of system that really dug deep into players choices, something amazing.

Little did I know... :blush:


I would have no problem with that man. I just want a happy ending were i am not being punished for doing what shepard wanted to do since the start.

#592
EnvyTB075

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AlanC9 wrote...

Demarco09 wrote...
To be honest, why can't we have both? 

Happy for those who feel their cannon shep deserved one. Sad/self-sacrifice for those who thought their shep best suited a sad type of ending. And all the ones in between those two....  This is an RPG right?  All your choices matter right?
So what is wrong with making all these different endings fit an RPG type of game where choices matter and each character gets what the player feels suits their cannon shep????


We already have that. Shepard lives if you sacrifice the geth, doesn't if you don't.


That is by no means an absolute.

What people like you seem to forget is that during the end game there is no indication that Destroy = survival, each option is presented as a death. You only find out about the survival IF you have your EMS high enough or if a buddy told you.

During the end game you do not know that you will survive in Destroy. Period. Stop insinuating that if a player wants to live, they simply have to choose destroy.

#593
vallore

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[quote]CronoDragoon wrote...



Do you feel the same way about all stories, or is there something specific about video game stories that mandates such strict limitations?[/quote]

Of course, don’t you? Why read or watch a story that is not enjoyable? Would you keep reading a story that is boring, or pointless, or annoying, even if you know that such is not going to change?

It is hardly limiting. Being enjoyable is not the same as being happy. Sad endings, for instance, can be enjoyable, provided the writer makes them worthy, but that requires balance. Imo, ME3 writers failed in achieving that with the ending, but achieved that with Thane’s and Mordin’s death, despite those being sad.

Furthermore different artistic mediums also have different levels/requirements of what may be enjoyable or not, even if the story is supposedly the same. It is not the same watching a story about how, say, commander Shepard saved the galaxy, and playing a RPG about it, as the perspective is different.


[quote]


[quote][quote]
The Dark Ritual? Not truly happy either. It is not free of potential consequences. If they become real or not is imo, irrelevant, as that knowledge requires metagaming. For the character, it is a dangerous gamble with the future. Further, there are several ways that ending can end in less than rosy tones. It can have the proverbial fly in the ointment, dependent of previous decisions.[/quote]

By no means is it irrelevant. If a decision fails to materialize concrete consequences then that decision was, by definition, inconsequential. If a decision continues to mean nothing other than positive outcomes for choosing it, then by the end of the story it has failed to live up to its promise and has been relegated to an empty dilemma, an uncompelling turning point of nothing. The Dark Ritual allows for no visible compromise other than perhaps bedding Morrigan/letting Alistair do it.[/quote] [/quote]

You are using your external knowledge, gained as a player, of what follows, to validate or invalidate a choice over which you character cannot know the consequences. You are choosing not to role play. That is perfectly valid, mind you, but if you don’t like the results the problem is not with the game, but rather a consequence of the approach you took, imo.

Any repeatable game has that problem at some level, and to circumvent it you need to have a different approach. Personally, When I choose to create a character I remain loyal to the personality I have created, regardless of where the choices lead. I found it is much more fun that way.



[quote]
[quote]Letting Alistair/Logan take the fall? Requires a type of character that one may not be willing to play, a dose of ruthlessness, or cold calculation. Regardless the result is not your textbook happy ending either.
[/quote]

"Textbook" is semantic. If you side with Alistair at the Landsmeet and execute Loghain, what exactly is the downside? Where are the tangible negatives that manifest as a result? Or is it all hyopothetical future possibilities that, as of DA2, have not shown themselves?

[/quote][/quote]

You mean, other than allowing, knowingly, a friend, or possibly a lover, die in your place?

Nothing I guess, if you character don't care about such things, and you find enjoyable to play so. Personally, I never played that ending myself, precisely because I find the consequences of the downside unenjoyable.

Modifié par vallore, 23 janvier 2013 - 02:48 .


#594
Iakus

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EnvyTB075 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Demarco09 wrote...
To be honest, why can't we have both? 

Happy for those who feel their cannon shep deserved one. Sad/self-sacrifice for those who thought their shep best suited a sad type of ending. And all the ones in between those two....  This is an RPG right?  All your choices matter right?
So what is wrong with making all these different endings fit an RPG type of game where choices matter and each character gets what the player feels suits their cannon shep????


We already have that. Shepard lives if you sacrifice the geth, doesn't if you don't.


That is by no means an absolute.

What people like you seem to forget is that during the end game there is no indication that Destroy = survival, each option is presented as a death. You only find out about the survival IF you have your EMS high enough or if a buddy told you.

During the end game you do not know that you will survive in Destroy. Period. Stop insinuating that if a player wants to live, they simply have to choose destroy.


QFT

It never ceases to amaze me how one gasp is considered equally vaqlid ptoof that Shepard lives as watching Shep disintigrate is of his/her death.  There are so many other problems to surmount it's frankly insulting that such a half-done scene was considered good enough.

#595
DeinonSlayer

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iakus wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Demarco09 wrote...
To be honest, why can't we have both? 

Happy for those who feel their cannon shep deserved one. Sad/self-sacrifice for those who thought their shep best suited a sad type of ending. And all the ones in between those two....  This is an RPG right?  All your choices matter right?
So what is wrong with making all these different endings fit an RPG type of game where choices matter and each character gets what the player feels suits their cannon shep????


We already have that. Shepard lives if you sacrifice the geth, doesn't if you don't.


That is by no means an absolute.

What people like you seem to forget is that during the end game there is no indication that Destroy = survival, each option is presented as a death. You only find out about the survival IF you have your EMS high enough or if a buddy told you.

During the end game you do not know that you will survive in Destroy. Period. Stop insinuating that if a player wants to live, they simply have to choose destroy.


QFT

It never ceases to amaze me how one gasp is considered equally vaqlid ptoof that Shepard lives as watching Shep disintigrate is of his/her death.  There are so many other problems to surmount it's frankly insulting that such a half-done scene was considered good enough.

You decide for yourself. End of story. It's not worth agonizing for months over.

Yes, it could have been done better. But is it worth all of this?

#596
Iakus

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DeinonSlayer wrote...
You decide for yourself. End of story. It's not worth agonizing for months over.

Yes, it could have been done better. But is it worth all of this?


Yes.  If it means it never, ever happens again.

If I have to finish the last chapter myself, I might as well take up writing fanfiction and save myself the money for the game

#597
Mr.House

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DeinonSlayer wrote...

You decide for yourself. End of story. It's not worth agonizing for months over.

Yes, it could have been done better. But is it worth all of this?

When you pay $69+ and at the end you are told to make your own ending, that person has the right to be angry, more so when they where told before launch, after the game went live they would get closure. There is no closure in that breath scene or in the endings in general as many things are still left unanswered. The EC still didn't fix these issues despite the fact it was promissed to give closure.

If you want people to make the ending for you, then why even make the product?

Modifié par Mr.House, 23 janvier 2013 - 06:54 .


#598
txgoldrush

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CronoDragoon wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Sorry but i'd argue it is bad writing to railroad the player into not being allowed to side with a choice(control), then have a magic space child pop up at the end to go, that option we specifically didn't give you the chance to side with well actually it is just dandy now. If the narrative fools with the player's expectations of what is the good choice(side with harrowmont) and afterwards you find that actually(Bhelen) has better consequences that is fine. In a choice based game to simply stick a glass window between so the player can see the choice but not touch it isn't.


It's also easy to argue that Shepard is constantly arguing with TIM about the circumstances surrounding Control, and not Control itself. For example, Paragon Shepard for most of the game is pointing out that TIM's desire for Control is splintering the war effort and has them fighting each other. I understand what you are saying, but even if Shepard said that he'd be open to Control, it wouldn't functionally change the game in any way since TIM is indoctrinated and since there are issues between them outside of the morality of Control.


Shepard can ask Hackett very late in the game, "What if TIM is right and we can control the Reapers?"

#599
Necrotya

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IMO, this game needed something like ME2 ending: -> you can save every1, high EMS blabla...or loose everything low ems, "bad" choices. Anyway, if ppl would have had the choice to go for either, most of them wouldn't be here anymore to talk about not getting closure. I would go even furter and say that ppl would turn a blind eye on other "problems" that me3 has. Auto dialog, side quests, some plot holes if they were given a chance to have it all - ( good ...to....bad endings, and everything in between )

+ just as OP, Im not a hater, still playing the game, love MP and SP. Hope for more ME in the future...

Modifié par Necrotya, 23 janvier 2013 - 07:04 .


#600
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Mr.House wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

You decide for yourself. End of story. It's not worth agonizing for months over.

Yes, it could have been done better. But is it worth all of this?

When you pay $69+ and at the end you are told to make your own ending, that person has the right to be angry, more so when they where told before launch, after the game went live they would get closure. There is no closure in that breath scene or in the endings in general as many things are still left unanswered. The EC still didn't fix these issues despite the fact it was promissed to give closure.

If you want people to make the ending for you, then why even make the product?


Can I quote you on this?