1258 réponses à ce sujet

[Galbrant]

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DAO is not dark.

Stopped reading

Pretty much reminds me of when I was kicking and screaming refusing to join the Grey Wardens on my human character. 

[Mr.House]

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DAO is not dark.

Stopped reading

Cleary he does not know how Broodmothers are made. Which is more darker and far more disturbing then how the Reapers are made. That's only one aspect of DAo and it makes the Reapers look like child toys.

[txgoldrush]

Mr.House wrote...

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

DAO is not dark.

Stopped reading

Cleary he does not know how Broodmothers are made. Which is more darker and far more disturbing then how the Reapers are made. That's only one aspect of DAo and it makes the Reapers look like child toys.

One part, in a whole freaking story...guess what? Jade Empire also had a disturbing section where golems were made from violent deaths.

Doesn't make the entire story dark, just that one part. Mother 2 had freaking Giygas at the end, easily one of the most disturbing bosses in a game ever, but that doesn't make the story dark, just that one part.

Overall DAO is a triumphant story with elements of darkness.

Contrast this with the mostly sorrowful ME3, and the thematically darker DA2.

Theme determines the darkness of the work far more than plot events or lore events.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Uh, all of the high EMS endings were happy. All break the cycle of galactic genocide. Some trade Shepard's life for greatness (control) and immortality (synthesis).

But, of course, people understand happy ending as a silly fantasy of "marry, reproduce and live happily ever after surrounded by blue children". Typical organic reaction, really. 90% of the media provide the outcome you desire - I, for one, welcome a more nuanced approach now and then.

[Iakus]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Uh, all of the high EMS endings were happy. All break the cycle of galactic genocide. Some trade Shepard's life for greatness (control) and immortality (synthesis).

But, of course, people understand happy ending as a silly fantasy of "marry, reproduce and live happily ever after surrounded by blue children". Typical organic reaction, really. 90% of the media provide the outcome you desire - I, for one, welcome a more nuanced approach now and then.

No all the endings (not just high EMS)  are bleak, nihilistic, and depressing.  All require S\\hepard to sacrifice his life and his honor for a "solution" nearly as bad as what the Reapers are doing.  There is no 'nuance" in that.  It's "pick your war crime and die"  Same, same, same.

But hey, maybe I'm just too stupid and uncultured to get it like you.apparantly do

[Iakus]

txgoldrush wrote...

One part, in a whole freaking story...guess what? Jade Empire also had a disturbing section where golems were made from violent deaths.

Doesn't make the entire story dark, just that one part. Mother 2 had freaking Giygas at the end, easily one of the most disturbing bosses in a game ever, but that doesn't make the story dark, just that one part.

Overall DAO is a triumphant story with elements of darkness.

Contrast this with the mostly sorrowful ME3, and the thematically darker DA2.

Theme determines the darkness of the work far more than plot events or lore events.

Yeah, you haven't played DAO.  If you've played through even one origin story, you'd have an idea how dark it is.

Edit:  that or you have a very odd view of what 'dark" is.

Modifié par iakus, 24 janvier 2013 - 02:54 .

[txgoldrush]

iakus wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

One part, in a whole freaking story...guess what? Jade Empire also had a disturbing section where golems were made from violent deaths.

Doesn't make the entire story dark, just that one part. Mother 2 had freaking Giygas at the end, easily one of the most disturbing bosses in a game ever, but that doesn't make the story dark, just that one part.

Overall DAO is a triumphant story with elements of darkness.

Contrast this with the mostly sorrowful ME3, and the thematically darker DA2.

Theme determines the darkness of the work far more than plot events or lore events.

Yeah, you haven't played DAO.  If you've played through even one origin story, you'd have an idea how dark it is.

Edit:  that or you have a very odd view of what 'dark" is.

No, its not that dark...its not as dark as its sequel, its not as dark as ME3, and its amateur hour compared to the darkness of the Witcher series.

Its high fantasy with dark elements....nothing more. Its fools dark fantasy.

And compare with other bioware games, most of the Origin stories are only as dark as other Bioware games. Are you going to tell me that they are darker than Jade Empire's opening chapter, to DA2's opening, to ME2 and ME3's openings?

Face it DAO is more "stylistically" dark than "thematically" dark.

[CronoDragoon]

vallore wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
Do you feel the same way about all stories, or is there something specific about video game stories that mandates such strict limitations?

Of course, don’t you?

No, I don't. How did you feel about the end to No Country for Old Men? Hardly enjoyable, yet intelligent, meaningful, and relevant to today's society all the same. Even saying that by the end you need to have won more than you lost clashes against the entire pastime of tragedies.

Nevertheless, tragedies are very difficult to do in video games, since VGs are still limited by the necessity of "winning" or "beating the game." In this sense I suppose video game stories can be seen as inevitably containing elements of "power fantasy" even if they have other artistic merit.

Regardless, I disagree that this applies to Mass Effect 3. Especially with the EC, you most certainly did not lose more than you won by defeating the Reapers. I'll also dispute iakus's claim that the "solutions" are "nearly as bad as what the Reapers were doing." That is extreme hyperbole based on emotion and not logic and reasoning.

You are using your external knowledge, gained as a player, of what follows, to validate or invalidate a choice over which you character cannot know the consequences. You are choosing not to role play. That is perfectly valid, mind you, but if you don’t like the results the problem is not with the game, but rather a consequence of the approach you took, imo.

The approach I am taking is analyzing the story. Role-playing and story analysis are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, since one presupposes no omniscience or as you put it external knowledge, while the other looks critically at the entire picture from start to finish. If you want to say that for someone who RPs the Dark Ritual isn't entirely happy I will agree, so long as we also agree that in critical analysis the Dark Ritual fails to deliver a real dilemma.

[Mouton_Alpha]

iakus wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Uh, all of the high EMS endings were happy. All break the cycle of galactic genocide. Some trade Shepard's life for greatness (control) and immortality (synthesis).

But, of course, people understand happy ending as a silly fantasy of "marry, reproduce and live happily ever after surrounded by blue children". Typical organic reaction, really. 90% of the media provide the outcome you desire - I, for one, welcome a more nuanced approach now and then.

No all the endings (not just high EMS)  are bleak, nihilistic, and depressing. 

Of course - if you measure it by the classic happy ending I outlined. Now, maybe it's just me, but I find death to be the most depressing thing in existence. Since at least one ending has an option for immortality for the whole
galaxy and another (control) might eventually get there considering the
resources, I find them extremely optimistic.

[SpamBot2000]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Now, maybe it's just me, but I find death to be the most depressing thing in existence. Since at least one ending has an option for immortality for the whole  galaxy and another (control) might eventually get there considering the
resources, I find them extremely optimistic.

Well, that's just your failure of imagination then. But some people do find the galaxy forcefully robotized down to the humble pyjak and the freaking mighty oak tree on a permanent basis a tad disspiriting. Or the galaxy ruled over by the catalyst "NOW IMPROVED WITH 'THE SHEPARD' DLC!!!!" with its Reaper armada visiting devastation upon whatever civilization looks like a threat to its warped dominion, with the possibility of some part of Shepard forced to live inside that monster forever and ever.
 

[wright1978]

iakus wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Uh, all of the high EMS endings were happy. All break the cycle of galactic genocide. Some trade Shepard's life for greatness (control) and immortality (synthesis).

But, of course, people understand happy ending as a silly fantasy of "marry, reproduce and live happily ever after surrounded by blue children". Typical organic reaction, really. 90% of the media provide the outcome you desire - I, for one, welcome a more nuanced approach now and then.

No all the endings (not just high EMS)  are bleak, nihilistic, and depressing.  All require Shepard to sacrifice his life and his honor for a "solution" nearly as bad as what the Reapers are doing.  There is no 'nuance" in that.  It's "pick your war crime and die"  Same, same, same.

But hey, maybe I'm just too stupid and uncultured to get it like you.apparantly do

Happy for me would be any winning ending where the player doesn't have to be led around by the nose like a bull by the Catalyst. Endings are completely unroleplayable too beyond a character who is an indocrinated agent of the reapers. As they currently stand they are bleak, nihilistic, depressing.

[Deventh]

I love the game, i really do, but once i have beaten it and saw that there was no happy ending i lost all intention to play it again.... I play the game because i want them to make me feel happy in another world, better than this one and not to get me depressed.

[78stonewobble]

ajsrise wrote...
So let me get this straight, because Shepard says " you can't save them all," that means screw eveyone, forget about making peace between the geth and the quarians (let alone the whole galaxy), forget the friends you made along the way and forget the people you lost. Just kill the reapers. 

You are forgeting that people ARE dying, people are LOSING their friends and family because of the war. All the **** you are talking about is happening. People are being sacrificed, but because you don't know their names they don't count?

People care.... but only a little.

On average people don't donate kidneys to random, faceless strangers or even give up their internet forum privileges to make sure x amount of kids won't starve to death.

For family and friends? Sure... Strangers? Nah not so much meaningfull sacrifice.

[Mouton_Alpha]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Well, that's just your failure of imagination then.

With imagination and speculation, I can debunk ANY ending as unhappy. Please.

Deventh wrote...

I love the game, i really do, but once i
have beaten it and saw that there was no happy ending i lost all
intention to play it again.... I play the game because i want them to
make me feel happy in another world, better than this one and not to get
me depressed.

The criteria of personal need and preference is, of course, a valid approach. Still, some of the cultural content will always be non-happy. Can't avoid it without researching every item beforehand. That is why, for example, romantic comedies are a more popular as a genre than sci-fi - everyone knows what they will get in romcoms, while sci-fi can very well end in death of the universe.

[vallore]

CronoDragoon wrote...
Regardless, I disagree that this applies to Mass Effect 3. Especially with the EC, you most certainly did not lose more than you won by defeating the Reapers.

Actually, a player can loose more. It is a matter of perspective:

You, I believe, are considering things from the perspective of Shepard's goals. I'm considering things from the perspective of the player's goals.

I would argue that while Shepard's primary goal is to stop the reapers, the player's aim is to enjoy herself while doing so. From this perspective, not all the ways of accomplishing this are equally valid, and certainly not equally valid for all the players and all the Shepards.

Now as an example, let's see Destroy:

Let us assume the role of a player that wishes to play a highly moral character.

The cost of Destroy is the destruction of a specific sentient people (genocide), a friend's death (arguably murder), and Shepard's own death, (arguably meaningless suicide), minus a few seconds of ambiguity, if your score is high.

This is not a merely an arithmetic issue then, where you add the number of those Shepard saves and subtract those that are lost. It is a qualitative moral issue, regarding you and the way you see and played your character.

You can play the entire game, (up until that moment), taking the high moral road, and being loud about it, and the game rewards you consistently for it.

Now, suddenly, you cannot. In fact, you cannot even argue against the reasoning that lead you to the proposed solutions, as the game does not allows for it. (Except as a “you loose” scenario).

In order to achieve the goals of this highly moral Shepard, the game forces this player to betray the character's morals. What is the consequence?

Our hypothetical player lost the game as, for many, remaining true to those morals were a expectably necessary condition to win, (otherwise why play such a character?). It is not just what you achieve but how.

I'll also dispute iakus's claim that the "solutions" are "nearly as bad as what the Reapers were doing." That is extreme hyperbole based on emotion and not logic and reasoning.

Not that exaggerated as you seem to believe, and certainly not lacking a logical basis.

Let's return to my example: In Destroy you can potentially be responsible for the destruction of an entire people. Between what Shepard does and the Reapers do what changes is the just the scale:

Shepard destroys a "species" as a mean of enforcing her solution. The catalyst destroys all as a mean of enforcing his. It is a quantitative change, not a qualitative one.

The other endings are also not exempt from this kind of problem; we don't truly know, for instance, what changes within living organisms with Synthesis or the long term consequences of Control.

You are using your external knowledge, gained as a player, of what follows, to validate or invalidate a choice over which you character cannot know the consequences. You are choosing not to role play. That is perfectly valid, mind you, but if you don’t like the results the problem is not with the game, but rather a consequence of the approach you took, imo.

The approach I am taking is analyzing the story. Role-playing and story analysis are at the opposite ends of the spectrum, since one presupposes no omniscience or as you put it external knowledge, while the other looks critically at the entire picture from start to finish. If you want to say that for someone who RPs the Dark Ritual isn't entirely happy I will agree, so long as we also agree that in critical analysis the Dark Ritual fails to deliver a real dilemma.

I would add a caveat:

The dark ritual is potentially a tradeoff between the short term and the long term. As such, the true consequences, if there are any, would only be felt decades after the ending proper, and are outside the scope of DAO. In fact, imo, during DA2 it was still far too early for them to be felt.

As such the lack of real consequences are only true in the short term, (DAO), and middle term, (DA2), but still an unknown quantity in the long term, (DA3 or later).

[vialynn]

Couldn't have said it better myself, vallore.
The endings of ME3 all ultimately boil down to 3 choices, no matter what type of character you played (Paragon / Renegade).  All that really mattered was the quantity of forces you got to follow you; not how you did it.  In essence the end of the game made it feel like your character's choices during the campaign had essentially no impact on how the galaxy was saved; simply that it was (or wasn't).

I've been playing Bioware games for a long time (since Baldur's Gate) and I've played every game they've produced since (excepting Knight of the Old Republic) and this is the first one I've felt like my moral choices had no impact on how the game ended.

At the end, we are given three choices and those three choices all come from the mouth of the reapers themselves.  Apparently Shepard is supposed to take everything they say at face value, as if at that point they are incapapble of lying (or at the very least misleading).  At the end of the conversation with the kid, I really was hoping Shepard would pull some typical action-hero shennanigans and take a fourth option he saw that the kid didn't want him to see.  

I mean, at this point in the game my Shepard had convinced two of his most bitter enemies to commit suicide after breaking through their reaper indoctrination, and brokered peace between the Geth and Quarians; arguably the most bitter enemies in known space.

And Shep can't come up with some last minute heroics once again?  Just seems .. not in character to the rest of the series to me.

Despite all that I give Bioware major props on the story and characters leading up to the end.  In the last game especially, I have never been so moved by simply talking to some of the people Shepard had with him.  Talking to Tali on Rannoch after stopping the War between the Quarians and Geth was amazing.  It was filled with so much hope and longing for a better future.  Liara really became an awesomely alive character to me in ME3, a friend with whom my Shepard could have an actual friendship with no weird sexual tension.  And Garus felt like the best snarky friend you could have throughout; especially during the bottle shooting competition.  All of that, and so much more, had made ME3 my favorite Bioware game up to that point.

So while I disagree with their choices on how the game ends, I'm happy to say I at least played all three games.  They were well worth the money, and I will continue to eagerly look forward to Bioware games.  I just hope they learn from this and make the next one even better.

[AB Souldier]

vialynn wrote...

Couldn't have said it better myself, vallore.
The endings of ME3 all ultimately boil down to 3 choices, no matter what type of character you played (Paragon / Renegade).  All that really mattered was the quantity of forces you got to follow you; not how you did it.  In essence the end of the game made it feel like your character's choices during the campaign had essentially no impact on how the galaxy was saved; simply that it was (or wasn't).

I've been playing Bioware games for a long time (since Baldur's Gate) and I've played every game they've produced since (excepting Knight of the Old Republic) and this is the first one I've felt like my moral choices had no impact on how the game ended.

At the end, we are given three choices and those three choices all come from the mouth of the reapers themselves.  Apparently Shepard is supposed to take everything they say at face value, as if at that point they are incapapble of lying (or at the very least misleading).  At the end of the conversation with the kid, I really was hoping Shepard would pull some typical action-hero shennanigans and take a fourth option he saw that the kid didn't want him to see.  

I mean, at this point in the game my Shepard had convinced two of his most bitter enemies to commit suicide after breaking through their reaper indoctrination, and brokered peace between the Geth and Quarians; arguably the most bitter enemies in known space.

And Shep can't come up with some last minute heroics once again?  Just seems .. not in character to the rest of the series to me.

Despite all that I give Bioware major props on the story and characters leading up to the end.  In the last game especially, I have never been so moved by simply talking to some of the people Shepard had with him.  Talking to Tali on Rannoch after stopping the War between the Quarians and Geth was amazing.  It was filled with so much hope and longing for a better future.  Liara really became an awesomely alive character to me in ME3, a friend with whom my Shepard could have an actual friendship with no weird sexual tension.  And Garus felt like the best snarky friend you could have throughout; especially during the bottle shooting competition.  All of that, and so much more, had made ME3 my favorite Bioware game up to that point.

So while I disagree with their choices on how the game ends, I'm happy to say I at least played all three games.  They were well worth the money, and I will continue to eagerly look forward to Bioware games.  I just hope they learn from this and make the next one even better.

No doubt. If people take so much time out of their day to fight for closure, it shows how much people love the game. I love all 3 mass effect games and mass effect 1,2,3 are my favorite games of all time because i felt so involved in it. 

Even though i want to see the happy ending i think we deserve, it was still a great game overall.

..... I still want my happy ending though :/

[AB Souldier]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Uh, all of the high EMS endings were happy. All break the cycle of galactic genocide. Some trade Shepard's life for greatness (control) and immortality (synthesis).

But, of course, people understand happy ending as a silly fantasy of "marry, reproduce and live happily ever after surrounded by blue children". Typical organic reaction, really. 90% of the media provide the outcome you desire - I, for one, welcome a more nuanced approach now and then.

Like i said bud, it doesn't have to be the only ending. Everyone has different opinions and sure, you can use this arguement to counter my thread but most people want the happy ending i am talking about.

EDIT: And the endings were not all happy (depends on how you see control or synthesis). Control is the idea of TIM, which i was fighting against for most of ME3, Synthesis is as most people like to put it "Genetic Rape," and i wouldn't want my DNA to be forced to change (idk if this will change under the circumstances) and Destroy is something Shepard was fighting for since the start and i (and many many others) believe destroying all geth and EDI after all the work in ME2 and ME3 was made to create peace between the Geth and Quarians.

Modifié par ajsrise, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:17 .

[o Ventus]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

An ending without sacrifice wouldn't fit the game.

Between the mandatory deaths and muuly exclusive choices, the entire game is riddled with sacrifice. Don't be an idiot.

[fiendishchicken]

o Ventus wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

An ending without sacrifice wouldn't fit the game.

Between the mandatory deaths and mutually exclusive choices, the entire game is riddled with sacrifice. Don't be an idiot.

It's forced sacrifice. Actually, it's not even that, it's forced suicide. Up out of no where comes this little bugger who brings up some crap that in all honesty is just plain stupid. And I'm forced to agree with him. I reject anything and everything to do with him, and want him and his toys to go **** off and get blown up.

And an ending without sacrifice would fit my game just fine. I played the whole trilogy with the intent for Shepard to survive and win in the end.

[DeinonSlayer]

fiendishchicken wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

An ending without sacrifice wouldn't fit the game.

Between the mandatory deaths and mutually exclusive choices, the entire game is riddled with sacrifice. Don't be an idiot.

It's forced sacrifice. Actually, it's not even that, it's forced suicide. Up out of no where comes this little bugger who brings up some crap that in all honesty is just plain stupid. And I'm forced to agree with him. I reject anything and everything to do with him, and want him and his toys to go **** off and get blown up.

And an ending without sacrifice would fit my game just fine. I played the whole trilogy with the intent for Shepard to survive and win in the end.

^ What this guy said.

My canon Shepard (and one secondary) lived, but I fully understand where this anger comes from. Fiendish, did you see this thread? I posted some dialogue that might have addressed it.

[Ridwan]

Because the pretend intellectuals who think 2000 space odyssey is a work of genius (while in reality it bores people to sleep) can't deal with happy endings it seems. It's too disney and unrealistic or some crap like that, meanwhile they got no problem with robots walking around talking and aliens with four balls.

Modifié par M25105, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:44 .

[o Ventus]

txgoldrush wrote...

Theme determines the darkness of the work far more than plot events or lore events.

Pokemon. Pokemon is about people wrangling in wild animals and making them fight (to the point of losing consciousness over and over) for monetary gain and fame. Basically everybody on the planet is Michael Vick. Pretty dark stuff, what with the animal cruelty.

Funy thing is, the story (what exists of it) treats this ****fighting as a game to be enjoyed, and the people who partake in it revel in their ghastly activities, sometimes wih a sick obsession.

Pokemon is also quite possibly the lightest hearted story in human history.

[AB Souldier]

fiendishchicken wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

An ending without sacrifice wouldn't fit the game.

Between the mandatory deaths and mutually exclusive choices, the entire game is riddled with sacrifice. Don't be an idiot.

It's forced sacrifice. Actually, it's not even that, it's forced suicide. Up out of no where comes this little bugger who brings up some crap that in all honesty is just plain stupid. And I'm forced to agree with him. I reject anything and everything to do with him, and want him and his toys to go **** off and get blown up.

And an ending without sacrifice would fit my game just fine. I played the whole trilogy with the intent for Shepard to survive and win in the end.

Agreed with the bolded.

Also....

"An ending without sacrifice wouldn't fit the game."

You seem to forget people were sacrificed in this game. Kaiden/Ashley, Mordin, Thane, ect......(and the unkown civilians.....)  In the end, they were all sacrificed.

Modifié par ajsrise, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:50 .

[AlanC9]

[quote]fiendishchicken wrote...

It's forced sacrifice. Actually, it's not even that, it's forced suicide. Up out of no where comes this little bugger who brings up some crap that in all honesty is just plain stupid. And I'm forced to agree with him. I reject anything and everything to do with him, and want him and his toys to go **** off and get blown up.[/quote]
[/quote]

Well, you can get the italed part, anyway.