1258 réponses à ce sujet

[MattFini]

Mcfly616 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

So the only thing that would count as a great last DLC is new ending content?

pretty much


Some people are hoping this DLC delivers. Hmm, I'm wondering: well ofcourse we hope it delivers.....I mean, I know Omega was mediocre, but I'm pretty sure Leviathan "delivered".


I've since come to the conclusion that by "deliver", they mean "new ending content"

For me, not necessarily.

I agree that Leviathan did, indeed, deliver.

While I would like to see BW get creative and do some kind of interesting epilogue DLC (for all ending scenarios) as a send off to the series AND the characters - I'm sure I could be happy with mid-game content, too. 

All depends on the presentation. 

[Iakus]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

if the next dlc "delivers", the other dlcs will sell like warm applepie.

Exactly.  This is one of the side effects that an epic (new or additional) ending could achieve.  Had they done this to begin with, instead of say, Leviathan then any kind of exploratory type of ending could also have happened.  It could have paved the way for some kind of Spectre Adventures that could have been expansion packs or a lot of other things.  Create a great core game that does not lack, storywise, and people will buy the other stuff just for fun.

Yup.  I got Leviathan specificlly becuse I was riding the high of the MEHEM mod gave me.  Well, that and I had the Bioware points lying around. 

If this final dlc does something for us "happy ending peasants" I will happily buy it and Omega,

Sadly, I don't expect it to, though.  they seem determined to ram "dark=deep" down our throats regardless of previous Mass Effect adventures.  That's not fun for me.

[Dr_Extrem]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

if the next dlc "delivers", the other dlcs will sell like warm applepie.

Spoiler alert: It will not.

The current expectations of BSN are larger than Charon's orbit.

i only stated an assumption (that is imo, very close to the truth) - my personal feelings are detached from this statement. btw. where did i post, that new ending content would be "delivered"? ... assumption on your side i guess. even a really good non-ending dlc, that enhances the game may boost dlc-sales. (there are mods out there, who can take care of this).

your attempt to pick up a fight or tutor me, are repelled. 

It was not my intent. My statement was concerning the sentiments running throught the BSN, not you in particular, as I pointed in my post. Mcfly616 puts it well:

Mcfly616 wrote...

I've since come to the conclusion that by "deliver", they mean "new ending content"

Many people seem to hope it will "fix" ME3. It will not. And even if it does, they will not like it.

i would not be hurt, if they would at least try to clarify shepards implicated (high ems destroy) fate with the new dlc. my view is a bit more realistic though. bioware will not do it - even if they would want it by now.

the pro-ending "faction" would start a war over this. they would state, that bioware gave into the "childish, disney-ending lovers" and that they abandoned their artistic vision to please the crowd. i guess minds are not alowed change, if you have a new perspective on your work. 


imo, mass effect 3 can not be fixed. the game is good but not bioware-good. the prologue is not beginner-friendly, it is full of cheesy one-liners, the crucible-plot is uninspired and thin, me2 characters were handled clumsy, the theme was meant to be "darker and edgier" - what pretty much failed, the plot is inconsistant and full of retcons, much of thre dialogie is corny and cliché-ridden and the ending is disconnected and raises more questions, than it gives answers. despite its flawes, it could have been received better, if the ending would have provided something for every taste, triggered by ems-score.
bioware left the plot very open to interpretation, realised is was too open, gave the people the painful good-bye extraction as a bandaid and retconed garrus and joker (the most loyal and loved characters) in the process.


no dlc can "fix" it - but it could make it barable and at least emotionally satisfying to the high-ems destroyers.

[TheRealJayDee]

iakus wrote...

Yup.  I got Leviathan specificlly becuse I was riding the high of the MEHEM mod gave me.  Well, that and I had the Bioware points lying around. 

If this final dlc does something for us "happy ending peasants" I will happily buy it and Omega,

I have quite some Bioware points lying around as well, and I have yet to figure out what to do with them. I bought pretty much all DA:O DLCs, had a lot left when the DA2 DLCs were released, and I didn't buy any of them. Then I got into Mass Effect and bought almost all ME2 DLCs, had a lot left and here we are.

If I'd see any reason to replay ME3 I would likely get Leviathan and even Omega. Let's wait and see what this last DLC will turn out to be...

[MegaSovereign]

I don't see how making the endings "happier" will make it objectively better.

The EC actually downplayed the aspect of consequence through the epilogue when all the endings were portrayed as uplifting. Killed the Geth? Changed people's DNA? Doesn't matter, the galaxy has a bright future to look forward to.

I don't see how showing Shepard reuniting with his friends would do anything about the "grim dark" complaints about the Crucible choices. I'm not saying a "happy ending" would be bad, but modifying the existing ending...well...It's just not a good idea to continuously edit a concept with different ideas and themes. You can't fix a bad batch by continuously blending more ingredients with it. If you want something better you're gonna have to dump what you got and start over. But Bioware is not going to dedicate their very last DLC to nothing but cinematics because that would be a tough sell.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 27 janvier 2013 - 10:10 .

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't see how making the endings "happier" will make it objectively better.

The EC actually downplayed the aspect of consequence through the epilogue when all the endings were portrayed as uplifting. Killed the Geth? Changed people's DNA? Doesn't matter, the galaxy has a bright future to look forward to.

That's a weakness of EC.  Just because people are graetful to"the Shepard" for comitting a given war crime, down't make said war crime okay.

I don't see how showing Shepard reuniting with his friends would do anything about the "grim dark" complaints about the Crucible choices. I'm not saying a "happy ending" would be bad, but modifying the existing ending...well...It's just not a good idea to continuously edit a concept with different ideas and themes. You can't fix a bad batch by continuously blending more ingredients with it. If you want something better you're gonna have to dump what you got and start over. But Bioware is not going to dedicate their very last DLC to nothing but cinematics because that would be a tough sell.

A reunion is a good start.  But you are right.  It still wouldn't completely undo teh gruimdark aspects fo the endings.

Though I must disagree that new elements can't be blended in"  the method for being able to do ao is already in the game:  the EMS system.  More EMS, elss grimdark ending.  It already exists in the low, medium and high ems endings for the choices

Adding another tier in which Shepard lives and has a reunion, along with perhaps hinting that EDI and the geth live, the Reapers depart, and Synthesis becomes a voluntary transformation would do wonders for people (provided said ending could be achieved through SP)

Edit:  It's not about making an ending objectively better, it's about providing different endings to please a variety of subjective tastes.  ATM pretty much the only one the endings rea;ly cater to is "dark=deep"

Modifié par iakus, 27 janvier 2013 - 10:20 .

[Dr_Extrem]

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't see how making the endings "happier" will make it objectively better.

The EC actually downplayed the aspect of consequence through the epilogue when all the endings were portrayed as uplifting. Killed the Geth? Changed people's DNA? Doesn't matter, the galaxy has a bright future to look forward to.

I don't see how showing Shepard reuniting with his friends would do anything about the "grim dark" complaints about the Crucible choices. I'm not saying a "happy ending" would be bad, but modifying the existing ending...well...It's just not a good idea to continuously edit a concept with different ideas and themes. You can't fix a bad batch by continuously blending more ingredients with it. If you want something better you're gonna have to dump what you got and start over. But Bioware is not going to dedicate their very last DLC to nothing but cinematics because that would be a tough sell.

aye .. its broken and really fixing it, would mean to rewrite half of the game.

a changed high-ems destroy memorial scene would at least ease the pain and if the new dlc would add a chance for the geth and edi to survive, even if it would cost them their reaper upgrades (with very high ems), people would be able to enjoy the game (at least on an emotional base) again.

this would be half a days work for the programmers, since they have the tools at hand. and the basement already stands.


i hope, that the last dlc adds some fresh meet to the game. good pre-ending content, with those slight alterations, would satisfy a lot of people (even if only emotionally).

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

I don't see how making the endings "happier" will make it objectively better.

The EC actually downplayed the aspect of consequence through the epilogue when all the endings were portrayed as uplifting. Killed the Geth? Changed people's DNA? Doesn't matter, the galaxy has a bright future to look forward to.

That's a weakness of EC.  Just because people are graetful to"the Shepard" for comitting a given war crime, down't make said war crime okay.

The point I was getting at is that the consequences were entirely downplayed.

I don't see how showing Shepard reuniting with his friends would do anything about the "grim dark" complaints about the Crucible choices. I'm not saying a "happy ending" would be bad, but modifying the existing ending...well...It's just not a good idea to continuously edit a concept with different ideas and themes. You can't fix a bad batch by continuously blending more ingredients with it. If you want something better you're gonna have to dump what you got and start over. But Bioware is not going to dedicate their very last DLC to nothing but cinematics because that would be a tough sell.

A reunion is a good start.  But you are right.  It still wouldn't completely undo teh gruimdark aspects fo the endings.

Though I must disagree that new elements can't be blended in"  the method for being able to do ao is already in the game:  the EMS system.  More EMS, elss grimdark ending.  It already exists in the low, medium and high ems endings for the choices

Adding another tier in which Shepard lives and has a reunion, along with perhaps hinting that EDI and the geth live, the Reapers depart, and Synthesis becomes a voluntary transformation would do wonders for people (provided said ending could be achieved through SP)

Edit:  It's not about making an ending objectively better, it's about providing different endings to please a variety of subjective tastes.  ATM pretty much the only one the endings rea;ly cater to is "dark=deep"

But what you're proposing would completely change the context of those choices. It won't satisfy a broader range of subjective tastes. People who like the current endings are going to have to go out of their way to achieve a mid-level EMS to get the "tier" they want.

And again, this would be the majority of the DLC content. No new side story or anything. It wouldn't actually even be a DLC mission. Just a narrative patch in an attempt to please a crowd (who already don't think too highly of ME3 as a whole) that may or may not respond well to the changes made. A bunch of cinematics, like the Extended Cut, but for a premium price.

Bioware logically could not do this.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 27 janvier 2013 - 10:36 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
I don't see how making the endings "happier" will make it objectively better.

The EC actually downplayed the aspect of consequence through the epilogue when all the endings were portrayed as uplifting. Killed the Geth? Changed people's DNA? Doesn't matter, the galaxy has a bright future to look forward to.

That's a weakness of EC.  Just because people are graetful to"the Shepard" for comitting a given war crime, down't make said war crime okay.

I don't see a good way to call only the morality of the endings into question. You could make the endings worse in substance, of course, but I don't think that's what you're talking about here.

[AlanC9]

MegaSovereign wrote...
But what you're proposing would completely change the context of those choices. It won't satisfy a broader range of subjective tastes. People who like the current endings are going to have to go out of their way to achieve a mid-level EMS to get the "tier" they want. 

That's always been my problem with the proposal. Choosing to fail isn't any answer at all.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...

The point I was getting at is that the consequences were entirely downplayed.

And I don't deny that.  Rather than addressing the problems, EC only swept them under the rug.  That's why I say the inherent weaknesses of the endings are still there.

But what you're proposing would completely change the context of those choices. It won't satisfy a broader range of subjective tastes. People who like the current endings are going to have to go out of their way to achieve a mid-level EMS to get the "tier" they want.

Don't see how that's  much of a problem, given how hated the fetch quests are anyway...

And again, this would be the majority of the DLC content. No new side story or anything. It wouldn't actually even be a DLC mission. Just a narrative patch in an attempt to please a crowd (who already don't think too highly of ME3 as a whole) that may or may not respond well to the changes made. A bunch of cinematics, like the Extended Cut, but for a premium price

Bioware logically could not do this.

Would a few cinemativcs really take up that much of a DLC?  because that's all it would really be:  the endings as is, but with a few extra scenes.  Might even be able to do it without extra dialogue.

And I think you underestimate the number of people who would be pleased, or at least be happier, if such a patch/dlc were added.  Even if it cost money.

Modifié par iakus, 27 janvier 2013 - 11:44 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
But what you're proposing would completely change the context of those choices. It won't satisfy a broader range of subjective tastes. People who like the current endings are going to have to go out of their way to achieve a mid-level EMS to get the "tier" they want. 

That's always been my problem with the proposal. Choosing to fail isn't any answer at all.

Personally I fail to see how Bioware thrusting failure upon us is an answer either.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
That's always been my problem with the proposal. Choosing to fail isn't any answer at all.

Personally I fail to see how Bioware thrusting failure upon us is an answer either.

Yep. I think this is a zero-sum game.

You should relax , though. You get your way on this point most of the time.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 janvier 2013 - 11:57 .

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

The point I was getting at is that the consequences were entirely downplayed.

And I don't deny that.  Rather than addressing the problems, EC only swept them under the rug.  That's why I say the inherent weaknesses of the endings are still there.

Right, so attempting to change the tone of the ending to downplay the events that just occured wouldn't be the best way to handle the ending. Doubling down on the downplaying would further escalate that particular issue.

But what you're proposing would completely change the context of those choices. It won't satisfy a broader range of subjective tastes. People who like the current endings are going to have to go out of their way to achieve a mid-level EMS to get the "tier" they want.

Don't see how that's  much of a problem, given how hated the fetch quests are anyway...

That's really not a great argument. You don't need to do every fetch quest to get 3100 EMS, especially with DLC. You're asking those that have that taste for what you call "grim-dark"  to aim for semi-failure and or disregard certain content. Not to mention, by removing consequences you are changing the context of the ending. So no, I don't think it's an "everybody wins" scenario.

And again, this would be the majority of the DLC content. No new side story or anything. It wouldn't actually even be a DLC mission. Just a narrative patch in an attempt to please a crowd (who already don't think too highly of ME3 as a whole) that may or may not respond well to the changes made. A bunch of cinematics, like the Extended Cut, but for a premium price

Bioware logically could not do this.

Would a few cinemativcs really take up that much of a DLC?  because that's all it would really be:  the endings as is, but with a few extra scenes.  Might even be able to do it without extra dialogue.

And I think you underestimate the number of people who would be pleased, or at least be happier, if such a patch/dlc were added.  Even if it cost money.

It's not necessarily a space issue. I'd imagine that the team that works on the DLC is considerably smaller, and as short as those cinematics may seem, a fraction of the limited time and resources they have would still have to be devoted to those extra scenes.

Again, those that have major issues with the ending, and by extension the entire game, will not be completely placated with a small patch. Hell, it may even backfire if it ends up upsetting the IT crowd.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 28 janvier 2013 - 01:34 .

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...
Edit:  It's not about making an ending objectively better, it's about providing different endings to please a variety of subjective tastes.  ATM pretty much the only one the endings rea;ly cater to is "dark=deep"

If you aren't making an objective argument, then you should try to not insult people who like the endings. It is, after all, just your personal taste as you say.

[CronoDragoon]

Here's a question:

If they removed the geth and EDI destruction but changed Destroy back to the OEs where the relays get completely destroyed (or near-to) then what would people think of that? The consequences would perhaps be worse but the act of choosing Destroy could perhaps be seen as less morally problematic from a non-consequentialist view. It by no means turns Destroy into the happy ending clear-best-option but also makes Destroy more consistent with a peace-on-Rannoch Shepard.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 janvier 2013 - 02:42 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...
Edit:  It's not about making an ending objectively better, it's about providing different endings to please a variety of subjective tastes.  ATM pretty much the only one the endings rea;ly cater to is "dark=deep"

If you aren't making an objective argument, then you should try to not insult people who like the endings. It is, after all, just your personal taste as you say.

That was a bit harsh.  But I do get tired of the "rainbows and butterflies" "Disney ending" etc.  I see zero reason why everyone couldn't have an ending that fit the tone of how their Shepard played.  Not just those who wanted a tragic end.  What we got was railroading, plain and simple.  And I'm sick of being mocked for calling Bioware on it.

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Here's a question:

If they removed the geth and EDI destruction but changed Destroy back to the OEs where the relays get completely destroyed (or near-to) then what would people think of that? The consequences would perhaps be worse but the act of choosing Destroy could perhaps be seen as less morally problematic from a non-consequentialist view. It by no means turns Destroy into the happy ending clear-best-option but also makes Destroy more consistent with a peace-on-Rannoch Shepard.

Throw in explicit proof Shepard survives and I'd take it in a heartbeat.

[hiraeth]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Here's a question:

If they removed the geth and EDI destruction but changed Destroy back to the OEs where the relays get completely destroyed (or near-to) then what would people think of that? The consequences would perhaps be worse but the act of choosing Destroy could perhaps be seen as less morally problematic from a non-consequentialist view. It by no means turns Destroy into the happy ending clear-best-option but also makes Destroy more consistent with a peace-on-Rannoch Shepard.

Throw in explicit proof Shepard survives and I'd take it in a heartbeat.

Yeah, Shepard was my #1 tie to the Mass Effect universe. I played the game and made choices through Shepard, so leaving him/her in a rubble full of questions (as the "survival" option) is unacceptable to me.

[Iakus]

MegaSovereign wrote...


Right, so attempting to change the tone of the ending to downplay the events that just occured wouldn't be the best way to handle the ending. Doubling down on the downplaying would further escalate that particular issue.

But that's not what I'm suggesting at all.  Any more than Earth being okay in High EMS destroy downplays Earth being destroyed in Low EMS Destroy.  

That's really not a great argument. You don't need to do every fetch quest to get 3100 EMS, especially with DLC. You're asking those that have that taste for what you call "grim-dark"  to aim for semi-failure and or disregard certain content. Not to mention, by removing consequences you are changing the context of the ending. So no, I don't think it's an "everybody wins" scenario.

I don't particularly agree with that appraisal, but fine.  How about a single optional side mission which, if completed a certain way, allows for a "happy" ending?

It's not necessarily a space issue. I'd imagine that the team that works on the DLC is considerably smaller, and as short as those cinematics may seem, a fraction of the limited time and resources they have would still have to be devoted to those extra scenes.

Again, those that have major issues with the ending, and by extension the entire game, will not be completely placated with a small patch. Hell, it may even backfire if it ends up upsetting the IT crowd.

I think you'd be amazed and what people would be willing to forgive.  How many people love ME1 and ME2 despite its flaws?  A happy ending  can cover a multitude of misteps.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

I don't particularly agree with that appraisal, but fine.  How about a single optional side mission which, if completed a certain way, allows for a "happy" ending?

Nah, it's still implying that doing more = better ending.

I'm honestly not sure how you'd do a "happier" Control or Synthesis. I'm not sure your suggestions work, especially as it applies to Synthesis. For anyone that chooses Synthesis because they do feel the need for a permanent solution to the organic/synthetic conflict, then introducing it as a voluntary process really changes the nature of the ending. Sure, it works better morally. But Synthesis is no longer creating a new world: it's simply a new scientific breakthrough. Now, morally this is obviously less problematic but it is still a major change in theme from the "old" Synthesis. Arguably you are changing very little about the world.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 janvier 2013 - 03:04 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Nah, it's still implying that doing more = better ending.

::sigh::  okay, how about outcome=happy or tragic?

Dialogue option?

Toggle in gameplay menu?

I'm honestly not sure how you'd do a "happier" Control or Synthesis. I'm not sure your suggestions work, especially as it applies to Synthesis. For anyone that chooses Synthesis because they do feel the need for a permanent solution to the organic/synthetic conflict, then introducing it as a voluntary process really changes the nature of the ending. Sure, it works better morally. But Synthesis is no longer creating a new world: it's simply a new scientific breakthrough. Now, morally this is obviously less problematic but it is still a major change in theme from the "old" Synthesis. Arguably you are changing very little about the world.

I admit, Syntheis is so far out there I have trouble coming up with possible ways to alter it simply because I don't see how it fits in the game as it is.

I imagine a "good" Control would be one where the Reapers stay under human (or at least organic) control or where they can be ordered to do someting besides beiing the ultimate Big Brother.  

[CronoDragoon]

My answer would be a cutscene for each ending: Destroy lives/dies, Control, and Synthesis.

The Destroy decision is a dialogue wheel with the Catalyst. When the Catalyst mentions that you are part synthetic, he follows that up with this question: Are you willing to die merely to ensure our destruction?You have two options, you can either say that you have no problem sacrificing yourself to protect what's important (insert defiant line) or that you have people waiting for you and can't afford to die (still choosing Destroy mind you. this is more a Firefly "that ain't plan A" type of thing). That dialogue choice determines the nature of your memorial scene, along with either a Reunion scene or a DA Origins funeral scene. Combine all this with swapping the geth/edi for the relays as I described and you have what has GOT to be happy enough for people to finally be satisfied.

For Control, the scene is your squad finding the new Shepard AI on the Citadel and speaking with it, with the dialogue influenced by your P/R standing. Personally I really, really want to see this scene even as a Destroyer, because I think it would be fascinating to see your squad's reactions.

For Synthesis, you can add a scene that fleshes something out in particular that would be good for Synthesis. (I don't know much about the specifics of the Synthesis ending or what people would like to see, so I'll leave those specifics to better minds. Personally I'd like to see a scene that deals with the Reapers integration into society. i.e. it has provoked some acceptance but a LOT of anger).

For Refuse, you could see a victorious fleet of aliens erecting a statue of Shepard as a symbol of the past cycles that died to provide them the info they needed to defeat the Reapers (with an implication that they were able to construct the Crucible in a way that didn't destroy synthetics or something. IDK. Is anyone picking Refuse that likes the idea of the next cycle choosing one of the same choices?)

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 28 janvier 2013 - 03:29 .

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

My answer would be a cutscene for each ending: Destroy lives/dies, Control, and Synthesis.

The Destroy decision is a dialogue wheel with the Catalyst. When the Catalyst mentions that you are part synthetic, he follows that up with this question: Are you willing to die merely to ensure our destruction?You have two options, you can either say that you have no problem sacrificing yourself to protect what's important (insert defiant line) or that you have people waiting for you and can't afford to die (still choosing Destroy mind you. this is more a Firefly "that ain't plan A" type of thing). That dialogue choice determines the nature of your memorial scene, along with either a Reunion scene or a DA Origins funeral scene. Combine all this with swapping the geth/edi for the relays as I described and you have what has GOT to be happy enough for people to finally be satisfied.

What you describe would satisfy me, I give you that.