1258 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm curious if there could be another ending option that is still somewhat on par with the existing ones in terms of benefit/consequences that would satiate those that feel the options that are present in the current EC are not satisfactory.

Would that still mean committing suicide because the Reaper leader kindly instructs you to, in order to advance its agenda? Because that would remain... problematic.

And yes, even the 'Destroy' ending appears to play into the whole 'Organic vs. Synthetic Deathmatch will have to determine everything anywhere forever' obsession that someone in the Mass Effect team came up with the night before deadline.

Wrong.

Its not his agenda...he is bound by the choices the Crucible creates...he tells you this when you reject his choices in low EMS.

And no, sacrificing all synthetics to destroying the Reaper fits the theme of ME3, victory through sacrifice. its called making the tough choices to achieve victory. Deal with it.

[Trav-O]

Honestly I cannot think of an ending using the catalyst as intended that would make it acceptable to me. Destroy is the only viable solution, lest one attempt to take the corrupted mantles of fallen men.
I can only visualize Catalyst plot device as a fake-out deception. I'm not a fan of Indoctrination Theory, but at least it has reasons for its weirdness. Catalyst is a passive doormat to every solution, deflating all tension and drama.

[SpamBot2000]

txgoldrush wrote...

Wrong.

Its not his agenda...he is bound by the choices the Crucible creates...he tells you this when you reject his choices in low EMS.

And no, sacrificing all synthetics to destroying the Reaper fits the theme of ME3, victory through sacrifice. its called making the tough choices to achieve victory. Deal with it.

Wrong right back at ya, Tex. The thing can go back to business as usual any time it likes, remember 'SO BE IT!'? It's not 'bound' to anything it doesn't want.  

And 'Deal with it', seriously? Is that what BioWare are in business of selling now? Do we somehow deserve the bitter frustration of 'lose/lose/lose... your pick' by having the audacity to purchase their products? If that is the case, the real sacrifice will turn out to be all the $$$$ BW are sacrificing in future profits.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 28 janvier 2013 - 09:03 .

[vialynn]

So, here is in a nutshell, what bothers me about this whole conversation; Bioware clearly wanted their game to end on a specific note.  Bittersweet, dark, whatever, the lack of a possible ending that many people would consider 'happy' means that the tone is being forced in a specific direction.  The reason for this may never be entirely known, but I think it says something that this many people are still emotionally involved enough 10 months later to still be arguing about it.

What I don't like is the feeling of betrayal I have towards Bioware.  I have played nearly all of their games for many years now and one thing always felt pretty consistent; the games ended on a relatively positive note.  Not everyone lived, not everything was saved, but the hero got to 'ride off into the sunset.'  I think its reasonable, then, to assume that Bioware games will bring this aspect to the table.  I certainly did not spend my time playing through three games expecting anything less.

It should be noted, the endings that currently exist I find to be interesting possibilities.  They are directions that are very awesome that they are included, even, or possibly especially, the ending where you just let the Reapers win.  What bothers me is that there couldn't also be included an ending where, at the very least, Shepard gets reunited with the crew.  If you're going to go as far as including the 'breath' scene, why not continue that to its logical conclusion?  Why stop there?

Mind you, I still wouldn't have entirely approved of all of the consequences of the "destroy" ending, but I would've at least felt more content about the fate of my character.

Ultimately, no matter what ending I had to deal with, I would have appreciated one that didn't behave as if the decisions I made in the entirety of ME1, 2, and 3 didn't matter.  Essentially my EMS score affects the 'variety' of three possible endings.  Nothing about my moral choices I made during the game have any impact on the endings available, nor their ultimate outcomes.  

[CommanderVyse]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm curious if there could be another ending option that is still somewhat on par with the existing ones in terms of benefit/consequences that would satiate those that feel the options that are present in the current EC are not satisfactory.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/368/index/14795358

[solidprice]

MassPredator wrote...

Sorry i have to post it....

"Artistic integrity"

yup this.

[Mouton_Alpha]

vialynn wrote...

What bothers me is that there couldn't also be included an ending where, at the very least, Shepard gets reunited with the crew.  If you're going to go as far as including the 'breath' scene, why not continue that to its logical conclusion?  Why stop there?

Mind you, I still wouldn't have entirely approved of all of the consequences of the "destroy" ending, but I would've at least felt more content about the fate of my character.

The main problem was going to be not how ending was conducted but that it was, in fact, an ending. The termination of such an epic saga was always meant to be a jarring experience, no matter what happened. Even the sight of blue babies would leave many people feel hollow.

For my part, I have read at least a few books that end abrubtly and thus, even in original endings, when I didn't see someone/somerace being killed, I automatically assumed they lived happily ever after anyway, including "breathing" Shepard. Many people have to see it to believe it and I understand this need even if I don't necessarily share it.

vialynn wrote...
Nothing about my moral choices I made during the game have any impact on the endings available, nor their ultimate outcomes.

Again, those who you saved are saved, those races that you helped, will thrive. Most of them are even in the EC stills. were there more snapshots, it would never be enough. The melancholy would always be strong, unfortunately.

Modifié par Mouton_Alpha, 28 janvier 2013 - 11:48 .

[Daniel_N7]

vialynn wrote...

(...) What bothers me is that there couldn't also be included an ending where, at the very least, Shepard gets reunited with the crew.  If you're going to go as far as including the 'breath' scene, why not continue that to its logical conclusion?
Why stop there?

I think this is the main reason why so many people express a problem with moving on to another Mass Effect (4) saga without Shepard. Because we haven't had a chance to "say" goodbye to her/him properly, wether it's a reunion scene (destroy scenario) or a memorial tribute of some kind on Earth (the EC Normandy scene just doesn't feel like it's enough). Also, an epilogue would feel much more emotionally rewarding if you had a glimpse of future scenes including your former crew members.

[wright1978]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm curious if there could be another ending option that is still somewhat on par with the existing ones in terms of benefit/consequences that would satiate those that feel the options that are present in the current EC are not satisfactory.

I'm also curious how destroy would be received if the knowledge of all synthetics being affected was not presented to Shepard (and hence, couldn't affect Shepard's thought process).

I'd accept any ending separated from the catalyst personally that is on par with the benefit/consequences. 

As to the issue of withholding key information from the player. I'd certainly be against this. I think the cost of using the crucible should have been revealed much earlier personally. Imagine withholding the knowledge that player will die killing archdemon in DAO. I don't think that would have resulted in a fulfilling experience.

[SpamBot2000]

wwinters99 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm curious if there could be another ending option that is still somewhat on par with the existing ones in terms of benefit/consequences that would satiate those that feel the options that are present in the current EC are not satisfactory.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/368/index/14795358

Indeed. Seems a simple little thing to implement, compared to the benefits of doing so. BW really ought to have a look at it.

[crimzontearz]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Fair, but given the context, how the characters in the game are reacting is somewhat irrelevant.

What I find interesting about the destroy ending is the discussion that ensues.

I don't consider any of the endings to be dark (particularly after the EC), nor do I consider the crucible's blast being indiscriminate towards EDI and the Geth a war crime either. I think this divide is what complicates any sort of motivation for additional variations on the ending. You certainly don't feel the same as me, and it's certainly not that your perspective is any more right or wrong than mine.

I'm curious if there could be another ending option that is still somewhat on par with the existing ones in terms of benefit/consequences that would satiate those that feel the options that are present in the current EC are not satisfactory.

I'm also curious how destroy would be received if the knowledge of all synthetics being affected was not presented to Shepard (and hence, couldn't affect Shepard's thought process).

in all honesty, my priorities are

1 kill the reapers

2 get Shepard the **** out of there alive to reunite with the crew and his LI

Once I have that I am golden regardless of the rest of the state of the galaxy.


 
Sure I may have come to terms with the possible "intention" bioware had about the breath scene but that does not mean I do not consider the endings grim or the death of the geth and EDI in destroy to be an arbitrary drawback put in solely to allow the other two endings to get more hits

Modifié par crimzontearz, 28 janvier 2013 - 01:53 .

[EnvyTB075]

A super bleak ending would work well with a game that was super bleak....which it wasn't. Of course i'm referring to Spec Ops as the game that did it all right and where a bleak ending worked.

ME3 needed a somewhat upbeat ending as it contained a lot of upbeat elements in its story with moments of bleak, which is why so many people are disillusioned by the sudden change at the end.

[Mouton_Alpha]

EnvyTB075 wrote...

A super bleak ending would work well with a game that was super bleak....which it wasn't.

None of the endings was super bleak or even bleak. They simply weren't perfect.

Also, Spec Ops

[GimmeDaGun]

wwinters99 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm curious if there could be another ending option that is still somewhat on par with the existing ones in terms of benefit/consequences that would satiate those that feel the options that are present in the current EC are not satisfactory.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/368/index/14795358

...problem is: it's not on par with the existing endings in terms of benefit-consequences.

It's a lot more traditional happy ending which has no real weight to it compared to the others. Shepard miraculously saved by Joker, Crucible turns into a simple reaper off switch, reunion with love interest... a strange memorial scene for Anderson (everybody is too emotionally moved in that scene... and it's Anderson... some of them didn't even know him really... anyway, that's the only thing that makes it "bitter"(sweet)), and there's no moral dilemma at all... none. The only thing that stops it being a traditional true-happy ending is the limited resourses which were at the modder's disposal. But the overall message is: reapers are killed (with no strings attached), everybody (who survived) lives happily ever after (most importantly Sheppard and LI), but the whole final act has no (moral) weight to it... there's no responsibility of choice.

... so it's not a good example. 

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 28 janvier 2013 - 02:29 .

[Fawx9]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

A super bleak ending would work well with a game that was super bleak....which it wasn't.

None of the endings was super bleak or even bleak. They simply weren't perfect.

Also, Spec Ops

You're saying a galactic dark age isn't super bleak?

Cause that's what we had.

Modifié par Fawx9, 28 janvier 2013 - 02:37 .

[Codename_Code]

About a happy ending : The sentence " is impossible to stop the reapers" is repeated a lot in the series, and you start to believe it. I went into ME3 hoping for a massive and well thought twist to stop the reapers and not just some brute force deus ex cannon, But I also went into it thinking " god, this looks impossible" I was ready to see Shepard die, and maybe a grim ending where the war is lost.

Right now, My ending is the following : Shepard suffered an indoctrination attempt, she rejected successfully ( first organic to do this ), but the war is still unfolding in favor to the reapers since she is apparently hurt and hopeless. My Shepard is still lying in that debris in London, trapped in a narrative twist that Bioware wants to push as an ending... my shepard is alive, defeated, but with a free mind and I´ll probably never see when she stands up and keeps fighting.

that is a sad lame ending.

And if we take the ending in a literal way. Well, it is an abysmal disaster.

About the destroy ending : The space justin bieber tells you that if you pick destroy your friends the geth will die, EDI will die, and shepard will die, this little piece of crap is blackmailing you with his innocent voice. Well, what if I get there with the geth killed by the quarians ? plus, he is just lying, Shepard is alive ( only way to save her ), and EDI, that conversation with her in the Normandy is foreshadow to that destroy decision " it is worth defending to the death"It is so obvious that EDI would give her life so bravely if that would kill the reapers "The Reapers are repulsive. Their only goal is self-preservation. I am different." Everybody in the Normandy is ready to give their lives for Shepard, everybody in the damn galactic fleet. There is no reason not to pick destroy, Unless you reaaally like the puke inducing synthesis and control endings.

Modifié par Codename_Code, 28 janvier 2013 - 04:09 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Kazzuuk wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

I've played the face value interpretation...
You're a complete monster no matter what you do...
You, the player...

Morality and Ethics are completely meaningless, and you are outright punished for having them...
Galaxy dies...

"War is Hell" - William Tecumseh Sherman

http://social.biowar...1973/6#15588011

[SpamBot2000]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

...problem is: it's not on par with the existing endings in terms of benefit-consequences.

Yet again, the question arises: Why exactly would this be a problem again?

Oh, and inb4 "No one is allowed to be satisfied, because life is grim!" 

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 28 janvier 2013 - 02:43 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

...problem is: it's not on par with the existing endings in terms of benefit-consequences.

Yet again, the question arises: Why exactly would this be a problem again?

Oh, and inb4 "No one is allowed to be satisfied, because life is grim!"

It wouldn't be a problem in itself. It might make the game feel shallow for some, but not necessarily.

In the end, this is a design choice. Some books/films/games end well, others end less well. Once the creators chose, you can't do much about it. You don't like it, others don't like other options, such is life. You can make a mod or write a fanfic or sigh and move on.

[crimzontearz]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

...problem is: it's not on par with the existing endings in terms of benefit-consequences.

Yet again, the question arises: Why exactly would this be a problem again?

Oh, and inb4 "No one is allowed to be satisfied, because life is grim!" 

because life does not beat us down enough and entertainment needs tough choices that make you feel like you did not win and if you want a happier ending you are a child who seeks wish fulfillment or a childish adult who wants escapism and ART IS BLEAK


 

 
-Mordin inhale- better? 

[Mouton_Alpha]

Fawx9 wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

EnvyTB075 wrote...

A super bleak ending would work well with a game that was super bleak....which it wasn't.

None of the endings was super bleak or even bleak. They simply weren't perfect.

Also, Spec Ops

You're saying a galactic dark age isn't super bleak?

Cause that's what we had.

Did we? The EC thankfully retconned the part about destroying mass relays. In Destroy, Hackett clearly says they will soon rebuild everything. Reaper problem gone, races united, universe is the limit.

[crimzontearz]

In all fairness....that was the original intent as per the devs themselves

[SpamBot2000]

It's not like the choice is tough per se, even. I'd never pick Syphilis or Becoming Reaper. It just that it makes you feel like crap, to bow down to these freaking monsters in obedient suicide. Is that a valuable life lesson or something?

And it's funny how everyone who is all 'It really makes you THINK, maaan' is also dead set against considering what happens beyond 'The voiceover told us it was happy! Ever after! I SAID EVER AFTER!'

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 28 janvier 2013 - 03:17 .

[DeinonSlayer]

wwinters99 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm curious if there could be another ending option that is still somewhat on par with the existing ones in terms of benefit/consequences that would satiate those that feel the options that are present in the current EC are not satisfactory.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/368/index/14795358

You completely ignored the "on par with existing benefits/consequences" part of his post.

[BirdsallSa]

To me, it's not even about a happy ending. It's about an ending that makes sense. I think part of that has to deal with mistakes made earlier in the game. There was not enough information given about the Crucible to make it in any way realistic. I'm not a guy that really analyzes things the first time through a game, but even I found it ridiculous how people were building something, yet didn't know what it could do. Then it turns out to just be a power source, a simplistic one at that. Apparently, the Catalyst has a magic wand to do whatever he wants with arbitrary consequences, so long as he is aided by a power source that only a naive coalition of species with no knowledge of what they're building can create. These fundamental flaws cannot be fixed by making the choices "better" as they are still contrived and always will be, as the Crucible is held as an utter mystery until the final 5 minutes of the game.

PL