1258 réponses à ce sujet

[PainCakesx]

scyphozoa wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

Uh, trillions of organics are not blended up into juice. That is a happy ending in my book.

In an abstarct sense. In a story, however, that centers around a protagonist (especially a video game given that almost every scene involves the protagonist), the protagonist is what the player is most emotionally invested in. 

Particularly in a game like Mass Effect where the actions the protagonist makes are directly influenced by the actions taken BY the player, thereby making the protagonist an extension of the player. 

Sure and the protagonist successfully completed the mission he/she started at the beginning of the trilogy, heroicly saving the entire galaxy from extinction. And by extension of that protagonist, it is the player who saved the galaxy heroicly. 

It's a bittersweet ending, if that. Having a couple of bittersweet or downright depressing endings is fine and dandy. The argument here is why couldn't there be even *one* ending where Shepard lives (unambiguously unlike the "breath" scene) and all is well? Too cheesy? Well great, don't go for that ending. Different strokes for different tastes - I thought that was the point of the whole "your choices make an impact" thing?

Modifié par PainCakesx, 08 février 2013 - 03:52 .

[PainCakesx]

scyphozoa wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
It's a bittersweet ending, if that. Having a couple of bittersweet or downright depressing endings is fine and dandy. The argument here is why couldn't there be even *one* ending where Shepard lives (unambiguously unlike the "breath" scene) and all is well? Too cheesy? Well great, don't go for that ending. Different strokes for different tastes - I thought that was the point of the whole "your choices make an impact" thing?

Right, this is just about Shepard living, its not about determing the value or happiness of the ending. Literally unicorns could be ****ting rainbows at the end of ME3, but if Shep didn't survive then it wouldn't be "happy enough" for some people. Oh well, you call it bittersweet, I call it trillions of lives being saved from brutal extinction.

Yes, I want *one* ending where Shepard lives. And the galaxy isn't all "happy rainbows." Billions are stranded due o Mass Relay destruction, billions more dead from the war, and virtually every major homeworld is in flames.

So Shepard living wouldn't even make it a "bunny and sunshine" ending. 

So yes, it's bittersweet.

And next time, feel free to check the attitude at the door. It's neither intimidating nor "badass."

[DC111]

PainCakesx wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
It's a bittersweet ending, if that. Having a couple of bittersweet or downright depressing endings is fine and dandy. The argument here is why couldn't there be even *one* ending where Shepard lives (unambiguously unlike the "breath" scene) and all is well? Too cheesy? Well great, don't go for that ending. Different strokes for different tastes - I thought that was the point of the whole "your choices make an impact" thing?

Right, this is just about Shepard living, its not about determing the value or happiness of the ending. Literally unicorns could be ****ting rainbows at the end of ME3, but if Shep didn't survive then it wouldn't be "happy enough" for some people. Oh well, you call it bittersweet, I call it trillions of lives being saved from brutal extinction.

Yes, I want *one* ending where Shepard lives. And the galaxy isn't all "happy rainbows." Billions are stranded due o Mass Relay destruction, billions more dead from the war, and virtually every major homeworld is in flames.

So Shepard living wouldn't even make it a "bunny and sunshine" ending. 

So yes, it's bittersweet.

And next time, feel free to check the attitude at the door. It's neither intimidating nor "badass."

Love this.  In an appreciative respectful kind of way. 

Folks want satisfaction.  Satisfaction does not have to be 'tied in a perfect bow'.  Options, Scarface, Death, Life can be synonymous, or in war, harmonious.  

I sometimes think if it would have been better if I had not sunk so much time, love, (money) and multiple play-throughs on ME1 and ME2 ..only to be left with a fantastic hole of 'What the Heck' following the ending of what would have been the greatest gaming 3 part series of all time.  

The sad thing is that I had to think about it... 

Modifié par DC111, 08 février 2013 - 04:24 .

[Iakus]

scyphozoa wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
It's a bittersweet ending, if that. Having a couple of bittersweet or downright depressing endings is fine and dandy. The argument here is why couldn't there be even *one* ending where Shepard lives (unambiguously unlike the "breath" scene) and all is well? Too cheesy? Well great, don't go for that ending. Different strokes for different tastes - I thought that was the point of the whole "your choices make an impact" thing?

Right, this is just about Shepard living, its not about determing the value or happiness of the ending. Literally unicorns could be ****ting rainbows at the end of ME3, but if Shep didn't survive then it wouldn't be "happy enough" for some people. Oh well, you call it bittersweet, I call it trillions of lives being saved from brutal extinction. Shep does not and should not need to survive for the ending to be considered "happy"

Or on the flip side, nothing could change but Shepard living, and some people would complain that it's too ":unicorns and rainbows" for their taste.  People are weird.

You know what should be the great thing about multiple endings?  Everyone can pick what thier own 'best" ending is and go for that.  Maybe some game companies should ook into that.

[BleedingUranium]

There's no happy because there's no ending.

[Kazzuuk]

iakus wrote...

You know what should be the great thing about multiple endings?  Everyone can pick what thier own 'best" ending is and go for that.  Maybe some game companies should ook into that.

I disagree with this to a certain extent.  When you have one ending "happier" than the other, it eliminates choice for the most part.  When you have a "best" solution, you are more compelled to choose that one than the others.  For example, I've played through the trilogy 4 times now (I first started in July, so I have catching up to do) and I feel like I have to cure the genophage and make peace between the geth and quarians because those are both "best possible solutions".  The choice from a logical perspective is eliminated.  As good as those subplots are, I think they are weaker than they could be otherwise because of a lack of a hard choice.  I think this series is at it's strongest when you have to make real choices, Ashley or Kaiden is a great example of this.  Love or hate the endings themselves, I absolutely loved that you had to make a real hard choice. 

Modifié par Kazzuuk, 08 février 2013 - 06:55 .

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
Or on the flip side, nothing could change but Shepard living, and some people would complain that it's too ":unicorns and rainbows" for their taste.  People are weird.

That wouldn't even be a change in the first place. But yeah, people are weird.

[AlanC9]

Kazzuuk wrote...
For example, I've played through the trilogy 4 times now (I first started in July, so I have catching up to do) and I feel like I have to cure the genophage and make peace between the geth and quarians because those are both "best possible solutions".  The choice from a logical perspective is eliminated. 

Well, in the case of the genophage, you can make a case that putting Wreav in charge of a resurgent krogan race wouldn't be a great idea.  The really hard choice is with Wrex dead and Eve alive. And regardless of his opinion of the krogan, Shepard might think that he can get away with the betrayal in the short term and deal with the genophage later. (If I was designing the game, I'd make it random whether the sabotage is discovered. Say, 70% chance of detection with Wrex in charge, 20% with Wreav.)

Rannoch is no choice at all if your ME2 save is good, true. If you didn't have enough P/R points at the quarian fleet, or if you somehow got Tali and/or Legion killed, things get more interesting.

I'm with you on the general point. In the end, I don't think this issue has a solution. Having a best ending and being able to get out of dilemmas is something that some of us want, and some of us don't want.

Modifié par AlanC9, 08 février 2013 - 07:12 .

[Iakus]

Kazzuuk wrote...

iakus wrote...

You know what should be the great thing about multiple endings?  Everyone can pick what thier own 'best" ending is and go for that.  Maybe some game companies should ook into that.

I disagree with this to a certain extent.  When you have one ending "happier" than the other, it eliminates choice for the most part.  When you have a "best" solution, you are more compelled to choose that one than the others.  For example, I've played through the trilogy 4 times now (I first started in July, so I have catching up to do) and I feel like I have to cure the genophage and make peace between the geth and quarians because those are both "best possible solutions".  The choice from a logical perspective is eliminated.  As good as those subplots are, I think they are weaker than they could be otherwise because of a lack of a hard choice.  I think this series is at it's strongest when you have to make real choices, Ashley or Kaiden is a great example of this.  Love or hate the endings themselves, I absolutely loved that you had to make a real hard choice. 

In one Dragon Age playthough, Alistair claimed the throne, executed Loghain, and did the Dark Ritual

In another, Alistair and Anora rule together, Loghain became a Grey Warden and slew the archdemon, redeeming his name and honor.

In a third, my Warden killed Loghain,  Alistair renounced his claim to the throne.  Anora ruled alone, and Alistair killed the archdemon, saving my Warden's life.

In a fourth playthrough, Alistair personally executed Loghain and ruled alone.  My warden refused the Dark Ritual, and went on the slay the archdemon himself, becoming a Paragon posthumously.

Which is the "best ending"?

[Kazzuuk]

LineHolder wrote...


Not necessarily. Some people just love bleak endings for the sake of it. Which is fine by me, whatever floats your boat. 

A full spectrum of resolutions is always nice though (yes and it includes 'nice' endings). It gives more varying narration possibilities. 

I agree some will choose bleak for the sake of bleak, though I don't think anything except maybe low ems endings in ME 3 are truly bleak.  My point was that a greater number will be compelled to choose the "nice" ending, and choice would really be an illusion for most.  I would think that would just be human nature.  As a longtime gamer (my first game was Empire Strikes Back........ for atari), I really enjoyed having to make difficult choices.  There are nice endings, bleak endings, etc in gaming, but having to make a hard choice is still fairly rare, and I think that is so often overlooked here on BSN.  Just my 2 cents.

[Iakus]

Kazzuuk wrote...

I agree some will choose bleak for the sake of bleak, though I don't think anything except maybe low ems endings in ME 3 are truly bleak.  My point was that a greater number will be compelled to choose the "nice" ending, and choice would really be an illusion for most.  I would think that would just be human nature.  As a longtime gamer (my first game was Empire Strikes Back........ for atari), I really enjoyed having to make difficult choices.  There are nice endings, bleak endings, etc in gaming, but having to make a hard choice is still fairly rare, and I think that is so often overlooked here on BSN.  Just my 2 cents.

The endings still have to feel worth the cost.  Currently, the ME3 endings made the entire trilogy feel pointless to me.  Even the "best" endings felt like the bad ending in Jade Empire.

Edit:  And I'm an Atari 2600 vetran myself.  Wasted more hours on Asteroids than I care to admit 

Modifié par iakus, 08 février 2013 - 08:06 .

[1337b0r0m1r]

Kazzuuk wrote...

I agree some will choose bleak for the sake of bleak, though I don't think anything except maybe low ems endings in ME 3 are truly bleak.  My point was that a greater number will be compelled to choose the "nice" ending, and choice would really be an illusion for most.  I would think that would just be human nature.  As a longtime gamer (my first game was Empire Strikes Back........ for atari), I really enjoyed having to make difficult choices.  There are nice endings, bleak endings, etc in gaming, but having to make a hard choice is still fairly rare, and I think that is so often overlooked here on BSN.  Just my 2 cents.

I agree. If you play it "right", you don't have to make many hard choices. Apart from Kaidan or Ashley, no one in your squad(s) has to die. Legion and Mordin die too, but you have no influence over that. The number of important other characters not making it is quite small too. Sure, billions of people die in the reaper war, but only very few are close to you. A more recent game presenting you with harder - and more consequential choices - would be The Witcher 2.

Maybe if you had to suffer more losses over the course of the games, you would have been more deserving of a happier ending.

Modifié par 1337b0r0m1r, 08 février 2013 - 09:53 .

[Kazzuuk]

iakus wrote...

The endings still have to feel worth the cost.  Currently, the ME3 endings made the entire trilogy feel pointless to me.  Even the "best" endings felt like the bad ending in Jade Empire.

Edit:  And I'm an Atari 2600 vetran myself.  Wasted more hours on Asteroids than I care to admit 

Three of the four endings save the galaxy in one way or another, I would argue any cost is worth that.  To your earlier post, I sadly cannot answer, I missed out on DA:O as real life commitments during those years prevented more gaming.

And Asteroids was amazing, though arcade verison with the vector graphics was mind blowing, lol.

[Kazzuuk]

1337b0r0m1r wrote...


I agree. If you play it "right", you don't have to make many hard choices. Apart from Kaidan or Ashley, no one in your squad(s) has to die. Legion and Mordin die too, but you have no influence over that. The number of important other characters not making it is quite small too. Sure, billions of people die in the reaper war, but only very few are close to you. A more recent game presenting you with harder - and more consequential choices - would be The Witcher 2.

Maybe if you had to suffer more losses over the course of the games, you would have been more deserving of a happier ending.

No spoilers on witcher 2!!!!  Playing through that right now .

[Xellith]

Kazzuuk wrote...

1337b0r0m1r wrote...


I agree. If you play it "right", you don't have to make many hard choices. Apart from Kaidan or Ashley, no one in your squad(s) has to die. Legion and Mordin die too, but you have no influence over that. The number of important other characters not making it is quite small too. Sure, billions of people die in the reaper war, but only very few are close to you. A more recent game presenting you with harder - and more consequential choices - would be The Witcher 2.

Maybe if you had to suffer more losses over the course of the games, you would have been more deserving of a happier ending.

No spoilers on witcher 2!!!!  Playing through that right now .

To be fair.. there are many variations on the story and endings.  Its not just a different color. 

[PainCakesx]

[quote]1337b0r0m1r wrote...

[quote]Kazzuuk wrote...

[/quote]

I agree some will choose bleak for the sake of bleak, though I don't think anything except maybe low ems endings in ME 3 are truly bleak.  My point was that a greater number will be compelled to choose the "nice" ending, and choice would really be an illusion for most.  I would think that would just be human nature.  As a longtime gamer (my first game was Empire Strikes Back........ for atari), I really enjoyed having to make difficult choices.  There are nice endings, bleak endings, etc in gaming, but having to make a hard choice is still fairly rare, and I think that is so often overlooked here on BSN.  Just my 2 cents.

[/quote]

I agree. If you play it "right", you don't have to make many hard choices. Apart from Kaidan or Ashley, no one in your squad(s) has to die. Legion and Mordin die too, but you have no influence over that. The number of important other characters not making it is quite small too. Sure, billions of people die in the reaper war, but only very few are close to you. A more recent game presenting you with harder - and more consequential choices - would be The Witcher 2.

Maybe if you had to suffer more losses over the course of the games, you would have been more deserving of a happier ending. [/quote]
--------------------------------

So basically, BioWare intentionally and knowingly witheld an ending that people would have preferred to railroad people into picking one of the other endings?

Sounds like a good plan. 

Additionally, if the premise is for there to be a variety of endings (as was advertised), then that should be the case. 3 shades of bittersweet with more assortments of just plain bleak endings isn't exactly variety. I get that some people may love bleak and dark endings, a sentiment that I don't fully understand (though there are some dark movies / stories I like), but as is evidenced here, there are also many people who wanted at least *one* option for a happy ending. Is one ending out of the many depressing and bitter endings so much to ask for?

Apparently it is. Baffling, but whatever. They've made their decision, as have I with regards to buying this next DLC. I don't enjoy playing as a character who's only destiny is suicide on the whim of a genocidal machine. 

Modifié par PainCakesx, 08 février 2013 - 08:30 .

[Sajuro]

I thought post EC the ending was rather happy, unless of course you messed up and did a low EMS option. If you are asking about why it didn't have an unambiguous happy ending, I feel it would have been inappropriate and people would still be mad because it would be anti-climatic or it wouldn't be something their Shepard would do. Even though Shepard dies in most endings, I still think that should not preclude them from being happy, even if it is that can of sad way, because the galaxy recovers and rebuilds, and it has a bright new future ahead of it in any ending you choose that wouldn't have been possible otherwise.
Even Refuse ends happily (despite not being a real ending) that the Cycle after us was able to defeat the Reapers without a big war, even if they did use the Crucible.

[PainCakesx]

Sajuro wrote...

I thought post EC the ending was rather happy, unless of course you messed up and did a low EMS option. If you are asking about why it didn't have an unambiguous happy ending, I feel it would have been inappropriate and people would still be mad because it would be anti-climatic or it wouldn't be something their Shepard would do. Even though Shepard dies in most endings, I still think that should not preclude them from being happy, even if it is that can of sad way, because the galaxy recovers and rebuilds, and it has a bright new future ahead of it in any ending you choose that wouldn't have been possible otherwise.
Even Refuse ends happily (despite not being a real ending) that the Cycle after us was able to defeat the Reapers without a big war, even if they did use the Crucible.

How is Shepard's survival anti-climactic? Did you find ME1 and ME2 anti-climactic?

Interestingly enough, I found ME3 to be very anti-climactic relative to its predecessors. 

[Kazzuuk]

PainCakesx wrote...


So basically, BioWare intentionally and knowingly witheld an ending that people would have preferred to railroad people into picking one of the other endings?

Sounds like a good plan. 

Additionally, if the premise is for there to be a variety of endings (as was advertised), then that should be the case. 3 shades of bittersweet with more assortments of just plain bleak endings isn't exactly variety. I get that some people may love bleak and dark endings, a sentiment that I don't fully understand (though there are some dark movies / stories I like), but as is evidenced here, there are also many people who wanted at least *one* option for a happy ending. Is one ending out of the many depressing and bitter endings so much to ask for?

Apparently it is. Baffling, but whatever. They've made their decision, as have I with regards to buying this next DLC. I don't enjoy playing as a character who's only destiny is suicide on the whim of a genocidal machine. 

I just really don't think I would describe any of the 3 main endings as bleak.  Even refuse has a ray of hope with your actions and beacon leading to victory in the next cycle.  You ended the reaper threat, to me that is worth almost any cost.  In the three main endings, your cycle of trillions of lives and various species continues on, not to mention the untold number of future species that will never have to endure the reaper threat.  Before your Shepard's actions, every single member of every single advanced race was repeatedly destroyed "on the whim of a genocidal machine".  You stopped that cycle.  Again, I would not describe that as bleak.