1258 réponses à ce sujet

[PainCakesx]

Kazzuuk wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...


So basically, BioWare intentionally and knowingly witheld an ending that people would have preferred to railroad people into picking one of the other endings?

Sounds like a good plan. 

Additionally, if the premise is for there to be a variety of endings (as was advertised), then that should be the case. 3 shades of bittersweet with more assortments of just plain bleak endings isn't exactly variety. I get that some people may love bleak and dark endings, a sentiment that I don't fully understand (though there are some dark movies / stories I like), but as is evidenced here, there are also many people who wanted at least *one* option for a happy ending. Is one ending out of the many depressing and bitter endings so much to ask for?

Apparently it is. Baffling, but whatever. They've made their decision, as have I with regards to buying this next DLC. I don't enjoy playing as a character who's only destiny is suicide on the whim of a genocidal machine. 

I just really don't think I would describe any of the 3 main endings as bleak.  Even refuse has a ray of hope with your actions and beacon leading to victory in the next cycle.  You ended the reaper threat, to me that is worth almost any cost.  In the three main endings, your cycle of trillions of lives and various species continues on, not to mention the untold number of future species that will never have to endure the reaper threat.  Before your Shepard's actions, every single member of every single advanced race was repeatedly destroyed "on the whim of a genocidal machine".  You stopped that cycle.  Again, I would not describe that as bleak. 

Bleak refers to the lower EMS endings. The 3 high EMS endings are bittersweet, with the exception fo high-EMS destroy which can be *interpreted* as being happy. 

Given the events leading up to the breath scene, it's hard to logically interpret it as him surviving from a scientific perspective, yet it's clear that BioWare intended for it to show his survival. Hence, even a short clip providing a more concrete basis for his survival would have made that scene a whole lot easier to swallow. Otherwise, the cognitive dissonance is maddening.

As it stands, with Priestly and Hepler saying that "It means whatever you want it to mean," the ending and that scene remains clear as mud. That scene lacks catharsis and as a result is unsatisfying. This could be resolved so easily and so simply, and they refuse. It makes literally no sense and is frustrating as all hell.

Modifié par PainCakesx, 08 février 2013 - 08:51 .

[1337b0r0m1r]

Kazzuuk wrote...

1337b0r0m1r wrote...


I agree. If you play it "right", you don't have to make many hard choices. Apart from Kaidan or Ashley, no one in your squad(s) has to die. Legion and Mordin die too, but you have no influence over that. The number of important other characters not making it is quite small too. Sure, billions of people die in the reaper war, but only very few are close to you. A more recent game presenting you with harder - and more consequential choices - would be The Witcher 2.

Maybe if you had to suffer more losses over the course of the games, you would have been more deserving of a happier ending.

No spoilers on witcher 2!!!!  Playing through that right now .

No worries. While I find ME a better game and story than The Witcher, Bioware might still learn a thing or two from it. Like said decisions. Or decisions where all outcomes are bad, and leaving it up to the player to decide what he finds the least bad option, without any morality system.

[Robhuzz]

1337b0r0m1r wrote...

Kazzuuk wrote...

1337b0r0m1r wrote...


I agree. If you play it "right", you don't have to make many hard choices. Apart from Kaidan or Ashley, no one in your squad(s) has to die. Legion and Mordin die too, but you have no influence over that. The number of important other characters not making it is quite small too. Sure, billions of people die in the reaper war, but only very few are close to you. A more recent game presenting you with harder - and more consequential choices - would be The Witcher 2.

Maybe if you had to suffer more losses over the course of the games, you would have been more deserving of a happier ending.

No spoilers on witcher 2!!!!  Playing through that right now .

No worries. While I find ME a better game and story than The Witcher, Bioware might still learn a thing or two from it. Like said decisions. Or decisions where all outcomes are bad, and leaving it up to the player to decide what he finds the least bad option, without any morality system.

That's what I like most about the Witcher 2: lack of a morality system. There are no 'good' or 'bad' choices. There are no 'good' or 'evil' choices either, they're all just choices, and nothing is preventing you from picking one. And as for the outcomes of those choices...the player has to decide whether or not he or she is happy with them.

[liggy002]

Robhuzz wrote...

1337b0r0m1r wrote...

Kazzuuk wrote...

1337b0r0m1r wrote...


I agree. If you play it "right", you don't have to make many hard choices. Apart from Kaidan or Ashley, no one in your squad(s) has to die. Legion and Mordin die too, but you have no influence over that. The number of important other characters not making it is quite small too. Sure, billions of people die in the reaper war, but only very few are close to you. A more recent game presenting you with harder - and more consequential choices - would be The Witcher 2.

Maybe if you had to suffer more losses over the course of the games, you would have been more deserving of a happier ending.

No spoilers on witcher 2!!!!  Playing through that right now .

No worries. While I find ME a better game and story than The Witcher, Bioware might still learn a thing or two from it. Like said decisions. Or decisions where all outcomes are bad, and leaving it up to the player to decide what he finds the least bad option, without any morality system.

That's what I like most about the Witcher 2: lack of a morality system. There are no 'good' or 'bad' choices. There are no 'good' or 'evil' choices either, they're all just choices, and nothing is preventing you from picking one. And as for the outcomes of those choices...the player has to decide whether or not he or she is happy with them.

What I also liked about the Witcher is that decisions would also unexpected and surprise outcomes, and sometimes far reaching consequences.  For instance, helping out somebody only to find out that they stab you in the back as opposed to having them arrested.  An entire new mission arises because you chose to help that person.

[Sir George Parr]

[quote]PainCakesx wrote...

[quote]1337b0r0m1r wrote...

[quote]Kazzuuk wrote...

[/quote]

I agree some will choose bleak for the sake of bleak, though I don't think anything except maybe low ems endings in ME 3 are truly bleak.  My point was that a greater number will be compelled to choose the "nice" ending, and choice would really be an illusion for most.  I would think that would just be human nature.  As a longtime gamer (my first game was Empire Strikes Back........ for atari), I really enjoyed having to make difficult choices.  There are nice endings, bleak endings, etc in gaming, but having to make a hard choice is still fairly rare, and I think that is so often overlooked here on BSN.  Just my 2 cents.

[/quote]

I agree. If you play it "right", you don't have to make many hard choices. Apart from Kaidan or Ashley, no one in your squad(s) has to die. Legion and Mordin die too, but you have no influence over that. The number of important other characters not making it is quite small too. Sure, billions of people die in the reaper war, but only very few are close to you. A more recent game presenting you with harder - and more consequential choices - would be The Witcher 2.

Maybe if you had to suffer more losses over the course of the games, you would have been more deserving of a happier ending. [/quote]
--------------------------------

So basically, BioWare intentionally and knowingly witheld an ending that people would have preferred to railroad people into picking one of the other endings?

Sounds like a good plan. 

Additionally, if the premise is for there to be a variety of endings (as was advertised), then that should be the case. 3 shades of bittersweet with more assortments of just plain bleak endings isn't exactly variety. I get that some people may love bleak and dark endings, a sentiment that I don't fully understand (though there are some dark movies / stories I like), but as is evidenced here, there are also many people who wanted at least *one* option for a happy ending. Is one ending out of the many depressing and bitter ending

Apparently it is. Baffling, but whatever. They've made their decision, as have I with regards to buying this next DLC. I don't enjoy playing as a character who's only destiny is suicide on the whim of a genocidal machine. 

[/quote]

XM-417 wrote ...
I would have being happy for that one option to have existed, instead of being left with depressing and bitter endings.Unless there is a nice surprise in store with that final dlc then its time to trade the games in and move on as i just don't enjoy the player character having to commit suicide. As i find the pet endings just to replusive.

Modifié par XM-417, 08 février 2013 - 02:17 .

[JaegerBane]

PainCakesx wrote...
Bleak refers to the lower EMS endings. The 3 high EMS endings are bittersweet, with the exception fo high-EMS destroy which can be *interpreted* as being happy. 

Given the events leading up to the breath scene, it's hard to logically interpret it as him surviving from a scientific perspective, yet it's clear that BioWare intended for it to show his survival. Hence, even a short clip providing a more concrete basis for his survival would have made that scene a whole lot easier to swallow. Otherwise, the cognitive dissonance is maddening.

As it stands, with Priestly and Hepler saying that "It means whatever you want it to mean," the ending and that scene remains clear as mud. That scene lacks catharsis and as a result is unsatisfying. This could be resolved so easily and so simply, and they refuse. It makes literally no sense and is frustrating as all hell.

That depends on how you view it. For me, the uber-high EMS destroy ending, post-EC, reminded me of the ending of the Dark Knight Rises (and therefore the ending of the entire Batman trilogy). Sacrifice, victory, and everyone thinks he gave it all.... but in the end, there was just a quick bit to show that against all odds, he came out of it after all. It was a good ending that caused me to sit back from my PC with the same smile I had on my face when I left the cinema after DKR.

You can argue it was actually just his last breath or whatever, but that's really the point behind that kind of ending - I don't really understand why you think that's such a bad thing.

[vialynn]

JaegerBane wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
Bleak refers to the lower EMS endings. The 3 high EMS endings are bittersweet, with the exception fo high-EMS destroy which can be *interpreted* as being happy. 

Given the events leading up to the breath scene, it's hard to logically interpret it as him surviving from a scientific perspective, yet it's clear that BioWare intended for it to show his survival. Hence, even a short clip providing a more concrete basis for his survival would have made that scene a whole lot easier to swallow. Otherwise, the cognitive dissonance is maddening.

As it stands, with Priestly and Hepler saying that "It means whatever you want it to mean," the ending and that scene remains clear as mud. That scene lacks catharsis and as a result is unsatisfying. This could be resolved so easily and so simply, and they refuse. It makes literally no sense and is frustrating as all hell.

That depends on how you view it. For me, the uber-high EMS destroy ending, post-EC, reminded me of the ending of the Dark Knight Rises (and therefore the ending of the entire Batman trilogy). Sacrifice, victory, and everyone thinks he gave it all.... but in the end, there was just a quick bit to show that against all odds, he came out of it after all. It was a good ending that caused me to sit back from my PC with the same smile I had on my face when I left the cinema after DKR.

You can argue it was actually just his last breath or whatever, but that's really the point behind that kind of ending - I don't really understand why you think that's such a bad thing.

Sure, its like TDKR - if, say, every single cop including Gordon all died in the nuclear blast.  Just the cops though, everyone else was fine.  

Thats really my beef at least.  The high-EMS destroy ending without the Geth and EDI dying?  I could probably live with that.  What we got was just too bitter to outweigh what tiny portion of possible 'sweet' we got.

At least IMO.

Edit - Also, there's no awesome scene with your love intrest at the end either, which I think would've probably helped wrap things up and give the game some closure.  Imagine TDKR ending right after the scene of the nuclear blast, with one brief scene of Batman washing up on shore taking one quick breath and BAM - credits.

The end of ME3 was so abrupt it really felt more like the end of the second movie in a triology; not the end of a triology.  All the ending monologue was about what happened to the Galaxy, and nothing about what happened to your friends other than them flying off the planet.

Modifié par vialynn, 08 février 2013 - 05:48 .

[HomerIsLegend]

I just can't believe that a group of professional writers that were involved in creating this franchise sat around a table at one point and said "Yeah I think this is a good way to send off the series".

Modifié par HomerIsLegend, 08 février 2013 - 05:47 .

[JaegerBane]

vialynn wrote...
Sure, its like TDKR - if, say, every single cop including Gordon all died in the nuclear blast.  Just the cops though, everyone else was fine.  

Thats really my beef at least.  The high-EMS destroy ending without the Geth and EDI dying?  I could probably live with that.  What we got was just too bitter to outweigh what tiny portion of possible 'sweet' we got.

Sort of. While I agree the loss of Edi and the Geth (particularly after they'd achieved so much and actually allied with the Quarians in the end) was pretty bitter, I didn't really see it as any different to the situation of with Kaidan/Ash in the first game. Put simply, you were going to lose someone, and you had to pick who, but this time it was on the scale of species. I didn't feel that loss actually affected the sheer weight of the result as such.

The end of ME3 was so abrupt it really felt more like the end of the second movie in a triology; not the end of a triology.  All the ending monologue was about what happened to the Galaxy, and nothing about what happened to your friends other than them flying off the planet.

I think that was something that passed me by - I knew they were alive and well, and the specifics of what happened to them weren't necessary to know that they could continue.

I don't know, I just didn't feel it was needed to actually draw a line under the story. What *was* needed, of course, was explaining how the galaxy continued, which is what the EC fixed.

[vialynn]

JaegerBane wrote...

I think that was something that passed me by - I knew they were alive and well, and the specifics of what happened to them weren't necessary to know that they could continue.

I don't know, I just didn't feel it was needed to actually draw a line under the story. What *was* needed, of course, was explaining how the galaxy continued, which is what the EC fixed.

Whereas for me, I wanted the exact opposite.  I can readily assume that the Galaxy, which has been in the backgorund the entire time, will now go along without a hitch since the Reapers are now dead.  What happened to my friends, and my love intrest (Tali) was FAR more important.  Those are the people I connected with and cared what happened to and what we got just wasn't enough, at least for me.

[CronoDragoon]

vialynn wrote...
The end of ME3 was so abrupt it really felt more like the end of the second movie in a triology; not the end of a triology.  All the ending monologue was about what happened to the Galaxy, and nothing about what happened to your friends other than them flying off the planet.

I can understand the LI thing since pretty much everyone agrees in principle on the nature of such an epilogue, but I prefer them not showing me exactly what my squad was doing post-ending because in some cases - like Garrus - I had a specific thing in mind. In this case leaving it to the player is a good thing for me.

It's similar to Dragon Age 2: All I needed to know was that my party members were safe and free to continue their lives however they wished. I actually really liked the lack of a LI scene in that one because for a Hawke/Isabella romance, for example, there's so many different paths they could take.

[Kabraxal]

vialynn wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I think that was something that passed me by - I knew they were alive and well, and the specifics of what happened to them weren't necessary to know that they could continue.

I don't know, I just didn't feel it was needed to actually draw a line under the story. What *was* needed, of course, was explaining how the galaxy continued, which is what the EC fixed.

Whereas for me, I wanted the exact opposite.  I can readily assume that the Galaxy, which has been in the backgorund the entire time, will now go along without a hitch since the Reapers are now dead.  What happened to my friends, and my love intrest (Tali) was FAR more important.  Those are the people I connected with and cared what happened to and what we got just wasn't enough, at least for me.

This... I connected to the characters.  I want tos ee how my choices affected them all and how their stories ended.  Instead, we get no closure on any character's story unless they are killed basically.  

[BizkitRebellion]

vialynn wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

I think that was something that passed me by - I knew they were alive and well, and the specifics of what happened to them weren't necessary to know that they could continue.

I don't know, I just didn't feel it was needed to actually draw a line under the story. What *was* needed, of course, was explaining how the galaxy continued, which is what the EC fixed.

Whereas for me, I wanted the exact opposite.  I can readily assume that the Galaxy, which has been in the backgorund the entire time, will now go along without a hitch since the Reapers are now dead.  What happened to my friends, and my love intrest (Tali) was FAR more important.  Those are the people I connected with and cared what happened to and what we got just wasn't enough, at least for me.

I agree, Alot of people were connected to these characters since ME1, and not AT LEAST showing us (in cutscene or text) what happen to our squadmates and LI (mines was/still is Liara) was kinda of a slap in the face.

I heard that your squadmates already told you what they would do after the war during Priority: Earth.
The only people I heard was Garrus and Javik. 

[Corkus LeBlunth IV]

It's a known fact that all happy endings lack artistic integrity.

[Khevan77]

I'm ok with a bittersweet ending, even a dark tragic ending (if victory is achieved at least), so long as that ending makes sense. ME3's endings just don't. Most of the basic plot of ME3 is contrived, asinine, and nonsensical.

It had some great moments, the Tuchanka arc in particular was my favorite gaming experience ever, and I loved some of the things Bioware did with the atmosphere of the game, the feeling of growing desperation as the war continues. Bioware worked hard, in my opinion, and I appreciate that part of what they did, but ME3 is probably my biggest gaming disappointment.

[SpamBot2000]

HomerIsLegend wrote...

I just can't believe that a group of professional writers that were involved in creating this franchise sat around a table at one point and said "Yeah I think this is a good way to send off the series".

Nor should you, for that never happened. Instead, Casey Hudson (not a professional writer) and Mac Walters (who is a professional writer, since he apparently gets paid) locked themselves in a room and came up with the grande finale all by themselves, then snuck it into the game without showing it to the real writers on the team.

Why did they do this? Obviously they knew the writers would not find it great. One theory is they just wanted to torch the franchise and move on. Hudson has certainly been known to advertise his desire to move onto something different. Alas, EA apparently didn't think so.

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 08 février 2013 - 10:14 .

[Atekimagus]

Khevan77 wrote...

I'm ok with a bittersweet ending, even a dark tragic ending (if victory is achieved at least), so long as that ending makes sense. ME3's endings just don't. Most of the basic plot of ME3 is contrived, asinine, and nonsensical.

It had some great moments, the Tuchanka arc in particular was my favorite gaming experience ever, and I loved some of the things Bioware did with the atmosphere of the game, the feeling of growing desperation as the war continues. Bioware worked hard, in my opinion, and I appreciate that part of what they did, but ME3 is probably my biggest gaming disappointment.

Pretty much this! I went into the game fully expecting that Shepard and most of his crew won't make it out alive.

I didn't expect that they introduce some major plotholes which invalidate the whole ME1 story in the space of the last two minutes.

Best not to think to hard about it, no matter if you like it or not. This ending is worthy of being analysed by Mr. Plinkett imho.

[Atekimagus]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

HomerIsLegend wrote...

I just can't believe that a group of professional writers that were involved in creating this franchise sat around a table at one point and said "Yeah I think this is a good way to send off the series".

Nor should you, for that never happened. Instead, Casey Hudson (not a professional writer) and Mac Walters (who is a professional writer, since he apparently gets paid) locked themselves in a room and came up with the grande finale all by themselves, then snuck it into the game without showing it to the real writers on the team.

If true, that would explain a great many things. Still, I don't get the underlying motivation to do so. If it's brilliant there is no need lock themselves away avoiding feedback from their own team, if they knew it's not.........I don't get it.

[SpamBot2000]

Atekimagus wrote...


If true, that would explain a great many things. Still, I don't get the underlying motivation to do so. If it's brilliant there is no need lock themselves away avoiding feedback from their own team, if they knew it's not.........I don't get it.

Already edited my post a bit to address this in a vague and unsatisfactory way, but yeah, that is the question.

Apparently, that "TV tropes" web site that everyone keeps quoting calls it a "Torch the franchise and run". 

[Iakus]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Atekimagus wrote...


If true, that would explain a great many things. Still, I don't get the underlying motivation to do so. If it's brilliant there is no need lock themselves away avoiding feedback from their own team, if they knew it's not.........I don't get it.

Already edited my post a bit to address this in a vague and unsatisfactory way, but yeah, that is the question.

Apparently, that "TV tropes" web site that everyone keeps quoting calls it a "Torch the franchise and run". 

Torch the Franchise and Run

Of course, doesn' t look like it worked here.  but Bioware Montreal has one heck of a cleanup job ahead of them.

And marketing's gonna be a serious challenge to win back all the burned fans...

[Atekimagus]

I don't know....are the guys that came up with the ending the same guys who invented ME in the first place? If not than "torch your franchise and run" makes no sense, it wasn't ever theirs to begin with.

That being said, whoever wrote the tuchanka arc should have been in charge of the whole game storywise. The writing quality and attention to detail is so far above and beyond the rest of the game it is very very noticable. Whoever did that had at least the cortesy to play ME1 and ME2 prior to writing for ME3, something I am not so sure about the people who wrote the ending.

[squaredgonzo]

I wish they made it like what they did in Awakening, having the option of your Warden being dead or having him to complete the story. Wishful thinking

[AlanC9]

XM-417 wrote...
So basically, BioWare intentionally and knowingly witheld an ending that people would have preferred to railroad people into picking one of the other endings?

"Withheld" there means "declined to write", right?

[L_B_123]

Probably wont get read that much but how emotional would it be if there was one ending where shepard did survive and you get a scene with your crew looking across earth. He take back earth would be shown and we would get closure, it would at least make up for lack of harbinger too for me.

[christrek1982]

CronoDragoon wrote...

vialynn wrote...
The end of ME3 was so abrupt it really felt more like the end of the second movie in a triology; not the end of a triology.  All the ending monologue was about what happened to the Galaxy, and nothing about what happened to your friends other than them flying off the planet.

I can understand the LI thing since pretty much everyone agrees in principle on the nature of such an epilogue, but I prefer them not showing me exactly what my squad was doing post-ending because in some cases - like Garrus - I had a specific thing in mind. In this case leaving it to the player is a good thing for me.

It's similar to Dragon Age 2: All I needed to know was that my party members were safe and free to continue their lives however they wished. I actually really liked the lack of a LI scene in that one because for a Hawke/Isabella romance, for example, there's so many different paths they could take.

I do agree on some level with what you say but at the end of DA 2 it is stated that Hawke and his/her love intrest go off together to parts unknown and although it is abrupt it's due to the build up with the war and not the state of hawke and the party.

as for TDKR you get to see the Bruce is ok and happy how good would it of been if you saw shep and love intrest together on the Normandy one last time or just them both walking ont a shuttle and setting of to parts unknow.  How dose somthing like that wreck anyones cannon?

Modifié par christrek1982, 08 février 2013 - 11:14 .