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Why can't Mass Effect 3 have a happy ending?


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#151
78stonewobble

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Reorte wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Well I can't get too worked up about facing the Reaper. To me it's small potatoes compaired to the catalyst.

The first one I can let go of with a sigh and a shrug. The second one... Well I feel like I would need one of my brains hemispheres peppered with railroad spikes to buy into that one.

I agree with that.

I think that where you overstep the mark and get daft matters a great deal. If the Catalyst had been some mid-game thing that was then dealt with and forgotten it would probably be easier to overlook.


Possibly. It's problematic it comes at the penultimate conclusion of what became 3 games, 100's of hours gameplay, virtual blood, sweat and tears. As your last forming memory to all that. Maybe more thought should have gone into "how do we want the players to feel as they leave this behind".

Well I'm actually quite glad that responcibility weren't on my shoulders. Image IPB

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 19 janvier 2013 - 02:17 .


#152
Brovikk Rasputin

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Because BioWare didn't want to make a happy ending.

High EMS Destroy is pretty happy. So choose that, if you want.

#153
Motherlander

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My main problem with the ending is not the 3 choices or even the Catalyst.

My main issue is that Shepard's final conversation before sacrificing him/herself is with the enemy and not with someone who matters.

The ending should be more personal.

I believe that Shepard should have had the option to "phone a friend" before the final act. Shep's final words should have been with his/her LI or friend, rather than with the Cayalyst. For me this may have given closure.

To do this effectively there would have to be dialogue with all significant characters and LIs. Then Shep chooses one and says his true final tearful goodbye.

If Shep has an LI, Shep can exchange emotional messages of everlasting love. These exchanges would be different depending in the LI.

Or Shep can choose a friend. Shep could talk about their ever lasting friendship (just like Spock and Kirk). Then Shep could apologise to Garrus for not having that last drink. Or apologise to EDI for killing her and the Geth in the upcoming destroy option. Or ask a friend to look after his/her hamster/fish. Or tell Joker than he can have Shep's collection of model ships.

I think this addition may have had an impact. It would allow us to say goodbye to Shep in the way of our choosing and in the way we feel best reflects the character of the Shep we have customised and created over so many hours.

It would not be the ideal ending. But at least it would be our ending.

Of course it would take a lot of work to do right and it will never happen. Also, I am sure this would not be enough for some fans. And I understand that.

I realise Shep did say goodbye before the final battle. But I feel Shep needed an opportunity to say the most meaningful goodbye before the final sacrifice. One final personal message for his 'friend' and for us. One last hurrah!

#154
AB Souldier

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Motherlander wrote...

ajsrise wrote...
No offence, that will make me feel even more guilty and even more like a Dic. Basically you are saying "Hey EDI, i am gonna kill you and commit genocide so that us organics can live."
That is just adding insult to injury. No thank you.


Now you can see why I don't work for Bioware. Not all my ideas are great. :P

Yes, it would not work for everyone. And it may not work at all. In the end, it is only an idea which will never happen anyway.

My view is that if Shep can apologise for the decision and receive forgiveness, some (but not all of us) may find some closure in this. It MAY work for some of us.

Bear in mind that EDI and the is synthetic and would probably accept the conclusion that it is the only logical wat to defeat the reapers.

To be honest I think each person would have to see how the ending is done before coming to a conclusion.

But one option to avoid upsetting those who don't want to see the aplology is to make the option of contacting EDI optional. That way, the scene can be avoided.


Dude you still have a lot of great ideas that should of been in the game in the first place! :)

#155
AB Souldier

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I just want an ending were i do what i was set out to do (destroy the reapers), Geth and EDI lives, and Shep lives OR a more personal death.

Modifié par ajsrise, 19 janvier 2013 - 02:35 .


#156
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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The ending is pretty happy already. You can destroy the Reapers and survive, and with the EC, they retconned the "galactic dark age" scenario. Not to mention the Synthesis ending, which apparently creates some kind of wacky utopia where people and husks can be friends.

The problem with the ending isn't that it's not happy enough; just that it's really bad.

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 19 janvier 2013 - 03:07 .


#157
GreyLycanTrope

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ajsrise wrote...

I just want an ending were i do what i was set out to do (destroy the reapers), Geth and EDI lives, and Shep lives OR a more personal death.

I would like that as well.

#158
CoolioThane

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Never understood how Shepard survives being incinerated and re-entry

#159
Teddie Sage

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Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Because BioWare didn't want to make a happy ending.

High EMS Destroy is pretty happy. So choose that, if you want.


Because you call this happy? *blinks* Unbelievable.

#160
AB Souldier

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

The ending is pretty happy already. You can destroy the Reapers and survive, and with the EC, they retconned the "galactic dark age" scenario. Not to mention the Synthesis ending, which apparently creates some kind of wacky utopia where people and husks can be friends.

The problem with the ending isn't that it's not happy enough; just that it's really bad.


Destroy is not a happy ending because you kill EDI and commit genocide by destroying the geth, and synthesis isn't happy because you screw with everyones dna and changes everyone. It it was me i would not want someone to change my dna without my permission.

#161
Brovikk Rasputin

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Teddie Sage wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Because BioWare didn't want to make a happy ending.

High EMS Destroy is pretty happy. So choose that, if you want.


Because you call this happy? *blinks* Unbelievable.

Sure you lose a bunch of synthetics, but you save a crazy amount of people in the process. Everyone you loved. If that's not happy, I don't know what is. 

#162
MegaSovereign

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CoolioThane wrote...

Never understood how Shepard survives being incinerated and re-entry


I believe he's still on the Citadel.

#163
fainmaca

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I don't think the problem is that the ending isn't happy. I've seen plenty of fiction that does a downer ending very well. Dark Knight, Empire Strikes Back, Revenge of the Sith and the Incredible Hulk are ones that come to me right off the top of my head, and generally they're pretty well recieved (SW prequel criticism aside).

The problem is that there is little to no reward to the ending. This is especially important for a video game where consumer investment is required, and exponentially more so for a game where choice and consequence is touted as the central feature. We need to get something out of all the time and thought we put in, an emotional payoff for our becoming involved in the story. There's no clear path from our choices to the conclusion we get. Rather, the conclusion just happens arbitrarily. BW could have even made the ending work if they'd just tweaked it to reward us a little more for playing their product. Show our war assets winning or losing the battle. Have heroes and villains we've encountered and influenced either kick some serious ass or go down in a blaze of glory. And then, when we finally get to the Catalyst, we can face one of two attitudes from the kid.

1) We've pushed the Reapers back, it actually looks like we're winning. We may have a shot at earning our own peace. The conversation with the SC is a little more guarded. He's cornered, and we may be about to destroy him. He tries to bargain, explains his purpose now that his back's against the wall, and pleads with Shepard to help him resolve the conflict he was designed to end. We have a choice- help the Reapers fulfil their purpose, or refuse to use their technology and gamble on winning with the assets we gathered. The colour chart choices or a successful refuse are all possible.

2) Positions are reversed. We're the ones losing. SC sees that this is happening, but decides the cycle will never end unless it changes. Its tone in the conversation is more that of someone doing a favour for someone else. Its talking down to us. It has chosen to give us this chance to end the conflict. Cue colour chart or our total failure.

This would give you a potential pool of eight or so endings- the RBG endings, with the flavour of us pushing the Catalyst to offer them or of the Catalyst pitying us and condescending to help end the cycle, giving each a completely different flavour. that's six alone. Seven- total annihilation. Eight- Victory, if you have enough for the first scenario. After that, you can have variations on whether shepard survives, the Normandy survives, the squad, etc. Its really not so much more than they made already, but that little extra makes it all the more palatable and makes the ending entirely of our making, not the brat. It properly rewards us for going through the narrative.

As it stands, it feels as though the writers used the ending to reward themselves with some haughty philosophical message rather than properly rewarding their consumers.

#164
Rhayak

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I don't remember: does post-EC Destroy still mean the destruction of all Geth, EDI and the like?

'Coz even with all the Synthesis-supporting i've been doing, i still can't call it a happy ending if Liara cries....

#165
sharkboy421

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Since people are debating the merits of what a "happy" ending is and just what it means, I'd like to throw my 2 cents into that discussion.

Of the current endings, Synthesis is pretty damn happy.  It has a huge rainbows and sunshine and bunny rabbits feel to me.  Everyone comes together in peace and harmony; organics and synthetics understand each other and so there will be no more wars.  Eh, ok I guess?  Control seems pretty happy too, the reaper threat is removed and you have reaper-shep in command now.  No more reaper threat and people seem to be getting along.  Destroy feels the most natural, but the geth and EDI are dead plus Shep may still be dead (though I imagine for most picking destroy she is alive) so its ehhh.  Refuse. . .well it ends well for the next cycle.

My point is, all the current endings do have some amount of happiness in them.  However I personally, and I think other people feel this way though obviously I am just guessing, still utterly detest the endings as they are.  It has nothing to do with the content or the execution of the endings though.  My problem is that the whole premise of the endings feels so detached from the rest of the trilogy.  The catalyst presents some interesting ideas and concepts that are well done and would actually make for a cool sci-fi game in their own right.  But they feel bolted on to the ending of ME3 and this is why the ending sequence feels so jarring.  I remember thinking on my first finish, "what the hell game did I just finish?"  It simply did not feel like Mass Effect.

For me, its never been about a "happy" ending (though I do want one certainly).  What I want is an ending that is appropriate for Mass Effect, even if that means Shepard must sacrifice herself for the good of the galaxy.  I could accept that, I'd cry for Shepard and her love and friends, but I could accept it.  I cannot accept an ending that is simply bolted on no matter how happy it is.

#166
Auld Wulf

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Synthesis is the happy ending.

If you choose that one, what you're doing is changing the organic state to be able to upgrade themselves. Let's say, for a moment, that this involves introducing all organic minds to a consensus, one where feelings are automatically shared and thoughts can be optionally shared. Now, let's also say that it upgrades synthetics to be able to understand these emotions (pain, fear, love, and so on).

We see that synthetics can now understand emotions via EDI; this most likely extends to all synthetics throughout the galaxy. So all synthetics now understand emotions, and emotions are being shared across a galaxy-wide consensus. Thus, every living creature (organic and synthetic) now has a better understanding of every other living creature. You feel their joy, you feel their pain. You feel inclined to share joy with them, and help them when they're down.

Empathy is something that we, as a species, are becoming desensitised to, I feel. And that actually bothers me. To me, synthesis is a statement of the importance of empathy. And I'm really not sure how that's "letting the reapers win." A galaxy where everyone finally understands each other, so that xenophobia no longer has a place is one where the reapers win? Then fine! I want the reapers to win if that's the case!

But it's silly to think that way.

Of course, I think that for xenophobes, a prospect like synthesis is a very, very scary one.

#167
AB Souldier

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Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Because BioWare didn't want to make a happy ending.

High EMS Destroy is pretty happy. So choose that, if you want.


Because you call this happy? *blinks* Unbelievable.

Sure you lose a bunch of synthetics, but you save a crazy amount of people in the process. Everyone you loved. If that's not happy, I don't know what is. 



"Sure you lose a bunch of synthetics"

I can garentee you that 90% of mass effect players will disagree with you.

#168
AB Souldier

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Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

Because BioWare didn't want to make a happy ending.

High EMS Destroy is pretty happy. So choose that, if you want.


Because you call this happy? *blinks* Unbelievable.

Sure you lose a bunch of synthetics, but you save a crazy amount of people in the process. Everyone you loved. If that's not happy, I don't know what is. 


EDIT: I dont know why this got posted twice. ^

"Sure you lose a bunch of synthetics"

I can garentee you that 90% of mass effect players will disagree with you. Did you main renegade? Because my paragon shep can't call that a happy ending.

Modifié par ajsrise, 19 janvier 2013 - 04:41 .


#169
Motherlander

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fainmaca wrote...

As it stands, it feels as though the writers used the ending to reward themselves with some haughty philosophical message rather than properly rewarding their consumers.


Isn't it ironic (or is it a coincidence??) that the BW treated its customers in the same way that the Catayst treated Shepard.

BW became what Shepard was fighting.

You are right that there is no feeling of reward. At the very least, we should have had a direct message of love or friendship between Shep and one of the crew directly before the sacrifice. That would have made the sacrifice more personal and allowed the gamer to also to tell Shepard how much he/she loves him/her through that crew member.

That would have made the event more meaningful. 

I think the problem is that BW ended ME like it was a game and not a movie. Fans like me came to see ME as more an interactive movie. And so it should have ended like a heroic action movie. But BW dud not realise this.

#170
78stonewobble

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ajsrise wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

The ending is pretty happy already. You can destroy the Reapers and survive, and with the EC, they retconned the "galactic dark age" scenario. Not to mention the Synthesis ending, which apparently creates some kind of wacky utopia where people and husks can be friends.

The problem with the ending isn't that it's not happy enough; just that it's really bad.


Destroy is not a happy ending because you kill EDI and commit genocide by destroying the geth, and synthesis isn't happy because you screw with everyones dna and changes everyone. It it was me i would not want someone to change my dna without my permission.


Forcibly, and it also kinda goes against Legion's point in the 2nd game, which I rather liked.

It's not about getting technology / abilities in any way you can. The route taken to the endgoal is part of slowly discovering and learning what these new technologies / abilities mean.

All the races in the galaxy, artificial or organics didn't "grow up" themselves. It was handed to them on a silver platter.

#171
fainmaca

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@Auld Wulf: See, now if you were to ask me, I'd say that Synthesis is not an expression of empathy, but rather the ultimate expression of Xenophobia.

Empathy is all the more potent when expressed for someone different from you. Shoehorning us all onto the same level of existence, all inhabiting the same plane of understanding, completely nullifies empathy. You don't need to feel for your fellow man anymore, because you're all the same (inside, anyway, where empathy comes from). You see Synthesis as achieving ultimate empathy, I see it as the death of empathy.

Xenophobia cannot be overcome by doing away with what separates us from each other. All that synthesis does is confirm that the previous forms of life (synthetics in particular) were not valid and had to be done away with and replaced with this new lifeform.

Synthesis is, in effect, the ultimate form of genocide. it eliminates all life in the Galaxy to replace it with a new and supposedly better, more deserving form, that of the hybrid. Destroy may be genocide as well, but that's only genocide of the body (in that case, the geth's). Synthesis is genocide of the soul.

#172
Motherlander

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sharkboy421 wrote...

My point is, all the current endings do have some amount of happiness in them. However I personally, and I think other people feel this way though obviously I am just guessing, still utterly detest the endings as they are. It has nothing to do with the content or the execution of the endings though. My problem is that the whole premise of the endings feels so detached from the rest of the trilogy.

For me, its never been about a "happy" ending (though I do want one certainly). What I want is an ending that is appropriate for Mass Effect, even if that means Shepard must sacrifice herself for the good of the galaxy. I could accept that, I'd cry for Shepard and her love and friends, but I could accept it. I cannot accept an ending that is simply bolted on no matter how happy it is.


Agreed. I think all the endings could be seen as happy. But only if they are accompanied by a personal touch to put them into context.

What is the true soul of ME? It is Shep developing his/her character and relationships with other characters through dialogue. That is what what we really love about ME.

But we don't get any of that at the point Shep has to sacrifice hi/her life. We don't get a goodbye dialogue with a character we care about. We get dialogue with the catalyst...I.e. the enemy.

The thing that made ME so good (I.e dialogue with characters we love) is not there at the most critical point of the game.

That is why many of us can't relate to it. Because ME lost its soul in the end.

#173
Kulbelbolka

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 They can't make happy ending because they don't want to create precedent when customers rage can bring creators of mass product to make critical changes.
Also there is such thing as artistic integrity (yeah, yeah, I know). Can you imagine that some book author would change the ending of a book because of fans butthurt? Yeah, there were some cases, but it's not standart procedure. And it should never be. There should be border between art and fan fiction.

But... There is still this last single player DLC coming out soon, maybe it will bring peace for some fans.

#174
ApuLunas

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a massive force that ended countless cycles, ended much more powerful civilizations like protheans and leviathans, and one expect happy ending? you can't find any drop of happiness in galaxy after a war against such powerful existence. even if cycle wins, it will cost enormous sacrifices, remember the war stories of javik. turning own children against a civilization, slitting throats of comrade soldiers... sorry guys, but ending whiners have no idea what game they played since the very start.

#175
james1976

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garrusfan1 wrote...

i want a happy ending as well or they could just add A REUNION.


That would be nice.

I'm not sure what's worse....not having a happy ending or the fact that they inserted that "devil child" at the end.