190 réponses à ce sujet

[Orian Tabris]

IRL: yes (or at least, I'm not mean).

Online: not usually, no.

[TEWR]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...

Yes, there is such a thing as being truly kind. As there are such things as being truly loving, caring, humble, fair, etc.[/quote]

I just can't see that as being possible given human nature.

[quote]And being kind doesn't require that you take insults lying down. You just don't repay them with insults of your own. If can no longer be kind, why don't you walk away from the irritating person or move on from the irritating poster? Why is it that you can't simply shrug, and say, "I'm sorry you feel that way," and move on?[/quote]

Because there are times when I can't. Literally, I can't, because walking away would be just as bad for me as their thoughts laid bare are for them.

Some jobs are like that. If you just walk away to cool off, you're actually hurting yourself in the long run because the employers won't like it -- no matter your reasons.

[quote]
I would disagree strongly with this remark, but it's interesting that you've stated it. It seems to be the prevailing attitude toward kindness in this thread.[/quote]

The argument can be made that being kind at the worst of times shows how you're kind in the best light compared to everything else, but it would taste a lie to my being if one were to claim that's the sole factor in what makes a person kind.


[quote]But why don't you leave or ignore the poster making the insult if you know you are becoming unkind? Online, if you know is prompting you to act in a way that conflicts with your described character?[/quote]

Online? I thought this discussion was centered more around offline. That's what I've been talking about, mainly.

Online if you were to ask posters about my mentality, they'd probably all agree that I've never lost my temper online unless a troll was involved. An actual troll.

There have been times where I've lost my temper towards genuine posters, but it wasn't because of them. It was due to more external factors -- for instance, Opera shutting off as I was finishing up a post paragraphs and paragraphs long.


[quote]That's sentiment, and to be kind is an active form of kindness. I can feel concern for others, but that doesn't mean I have to do anything to help them.[/quote]

I'd argue that it's still a facet of kindness. If I see a report of a missing person and hear also about their tragic upbringing, I'm going to feel concern for them.

But if they went missing 400 miles away from me, what can I do? I can't just abandon home and kin to look for a total stranger. I can feel concern for their well-being, but barring their showing up in my area of travel there isn't much I can do.

So I'd still say that concern for others falls into kindness, whether one acts upon it or not.


[quote]Do you not feel that this makes your character conditional?[/quote]

Of course. I never said I was always a kindred soul. Only that usually so I am, until something else happens. Everyone is conditional. It's human nature.

[quote]Absolutely, but I now realize it was not the kind thing to do, it was the irrational thing to do, and if I truly want to be a kind person I can't express my feelings on a whim. I can't repay someone with insults or ugliness. I can feel angry. It's natural to feel angry. I'm going to feel angry. But I don't have to do things out of anger. It doesn't happen overnight, it requires training, but I think I'll be a better person for it. In my view, I'll at least be the person I claim and aspire to be IRL and online.[/quote]

I applaud your efforts in doing so, though I do think that even the best of us cannot hope to accomplish such a feat.

However, I do not think anger is itself an irrational thing.


[quote]If an adult won't listen to sound argument or reason, why do you think they would respond to sarcasm, snide, rudeness, etc.?[/quote]

It tends to open their eyes. I've tried sound arguments to people in the real world* and it doesn't work all the time. At which point, if I repeatedly try and repeatedly fail, then I lose my temper.

Then they start listening.

*Technically, this is still the real world. Always feels weird to say "IRL" when this is still real life.

Unless none of you exist?!



[quote]And do you really think you're being heard by the person you've just insulted or called out of name, etc.? Also, scolding or being firm is alot different from being insulting. I've never seen the latter work.[/quote]

You've never seen me in action. 

[quote]Yes, but in general that's easy. It's not hard for you to do that. Your character isn't being tested when help the needy after a payday. It's being tested when you're between paydays and the homeless person in the park begs you for a meal.[/quote]

Oh, I've done that. I've been poor many times in the last decade alone, but I always give a homeless person some money or food if I have some on me.

Even if I personally doubt where the money will be spent, I still give him some money even though I need it.

[quote]No, it's not just turning the other cheek, but it includes that as a hallmark in most defintions.[/quote]

But is turning the other cheek defined the same way in those definitions?


[quote]
Going by the standard defintions, I have to disagree, but this is an interesting remark. So, IRL you may punch a wall, not becasue it's reasonable, but because you felt angry and it makes you feel better? And online, you may insult someone, not be because it made your argument better, but because it also made you feel better?


take it back BSN, you've given me some great answers.
[/quote]

For real life, yes. Granted, I haven't punched a wall in well over a year now despite being angry. 

Online, I tend to not really insult people -- trolls being the exception. I may take issue with their stance, or say it's absurd, or something else and then give as much of a post on why I feel that way as I can -- depending on my mood -- but I won't go "You're a ****ing idiot" and leave it at that.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 janvier 2013 - 02:51 .

[Knight of Dane]

IRL yeah. Most seem to enjoy my company at least.

On tha netz I speak my mind.
But i think that I tend to more not think about how I sound at all rather than actually sound mean intentionally.. ^^

[TEWR]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Generally, you find it difficult to relate on most levels to people you don't know or don't like, or often you're not interested in reaching that level of intimacy with strangers?

For myself it's the former. Difficult in the sense that it's hard to establish that type of paradigm, but not difficult to continue it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 21 janvier 2013 - 02:57 .

[Fidget6]

I'm very kind, I don't understand people that are unnecessarily cruel. There are a lot, and it makes me sad. =/

[lil yonce]

Insaner Robot wrote...

As I said it only seems to me. this isn't really my field (I study palaeontology). But I'm not sure if I can truly say that I'm kind merely that I try to do the right thing when I can, whether it's benificial for me or a complete stranger is irrelevent.

I think the best test would be to gauge whether or not the action came from your "heart". Did you relate to the person you helped? Did you do something for no other reason than having made a genuine connection to someone (you didn't hope to gain something)? And the "right thing" doesn't necessarily mean an action came from your "heart". With kindness, I think it's the "right thing" because it came from a pure place within you. It came from your ability and decision to empathize with your fellow man. It came from your decision to act on that empathy.

However the prideful aspect (and I'm sorry if it seemed as though I'm overstating this as I don't mean to) is from personal observation. I've known people, former coworkers/friends/schoolmates who in all the years I knew them were fairly obnoxious, but suddenly and on average once, each would make a point of telling this tale to everyone they knew. About how they offered aid to someone that was in tears or broke up a fight for example, making it a point to say how great they are for doing this. When I would point out that it sounded like they simply did what they should have done, the right thing and they should continue to do it, I was called cold or cruel.

Their behavior sounds boastful and that is unkind behavior. I don't think it disqualifies the kindness they've shown in the past, but in the moment they boast about their past kindness, they're being unkind which is ironic. It's self centered appraisal. There is no relating to anyone. There's no builiding up of or helping others. You're focusing only on yourself when you boast.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:21 .

[SafetyShattered]

Yeah, I'd say I'm kind. Unless people insult my friends...then I'm an ass.

[lil yonce]

eroeru wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

I try to be as loving and good as I can be. Hopefully that translates at least partially to kindness. I have a low tolerance of sweet, whether food or mannerisms, so I can be rather tart, even to myself.

I relate to this.

The second most famous bible verse states that "Love is kind...". I don't know that either of you believe in the teachings of the Christian bible, but if you generally identify with that statement and you consider yourself a loving person, that could certainly mean you are kind. And the verse doesn't say that you have to be "nice" to anyone. It doesn't say or read that love is "nice" or "sweet". You're safe!

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:19 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I just can't see that as being possible given human nature.[/quote]
What's your view on human nature? Humans are innately selfish?

[quote]Because there are times when I can't. Literally, I can't, because walking away would be just as bad for me as their thoughts laid bare are for them. Some jobs are like that. If you just walk away to cool off, you're actually hurting yourself in the long run because the employers won't like it -- no matter your reasons.[/quote]
But any response you make must mirror theirs? You can't fake it with politeness? Niceness is a step down from kindness and almost everyone I know can be "nice" or polite when a situation calls for it as with a job. I'd say "niceness" is the broad area between kindness and meanness. It's a more political arena. You're polite usually not because you genuinely care, but because there are negative consequences of some kind for you not being so.

[quote]The argument can be made that being kind at the worst of times shows how you're kind in the best light compared to everything else, but it would taste a lie to my being if one were to claim that's the sole factor in what makes a person kind.[/quote]
You wouldn't call a mother who beats her child out unrelated anger loving though she otherwise treats that child fairly. Would you say a person has an honest character if they told the truth in every situation except for an instance they perjured themselves in court?

And you are never boasting about kindness when you are being kind. Kindness comes from a relation of the heart. If you're doing something to show off or build yourself up in the eyes of others, you're not focusing no anyone other than yourself. You're not being kind. That's a fakeness. That's boasting. At most that's being "nice" and politicing for a social reward. Kindness never seeks anything in return.

[quote]Online? I thought this discussion was centered more around offline. That's what I've been talking about, mainly.[/quote]
No, it's both really. I asked for IRL and Online self perceptions. I wanted to see if they were identical. They seem to be with most posters. I'm giving a speech in my Public Speaking class this week on the coarseness of internet culture and hoped to give the topic of kindness an exercise on the BSN in preparation.

[quote]Online if you were to ask posters about my mentality, they'd probably all agree that I've never lost my temper online unless a troll was involved. An actual troll. There have been times where I've lost my temper towards genuine posters, but it wasn't because of them. It was due to more external factors -- for instance, Opera shutting off as I was finishing up a post paragraphs and paragraphs long.[/quote]
So, it's mostly about you when you're no longer being kind, or other posters you feel? In the instance you feel it is only about you, why do others have to pay for how you feel?

[quote]I'd argue that it's still a facet of kindness. If I see a report of a missing person and hear also about their tragic upbringing, I'm going to feel concern for them.[/quote]
But that's still sentiment. Kindness is not a sentiment. I don't you can feel kind like you can feel concern. I've never heard someone say, "I feel kind right now." You can't feel kind things. You do kind things. What you mentioned sounds like sympathy or empathy, and kindness goes beyond both. You've been kind when you act on sympathy or empathy. If this happened in your neighborhood and you visited the family to offer support that would be kind. If you picked up their other kids from school so they'd have one less thing to worry about, that's kindness.

[quote]But if they went missing 400 miles away from me, what can I do? I can't just abandon home and kin to look for a total stranger. I can feel concern for their well-being, but barring their showing up in my area of travel there isn't much I can do.[/quote]
Did you write them a letter? If you believe in such things, did you pray for the family? That would be an act of kindness shown towards them. That's something feasible.

[quote]So I'd still say that concern for others falls into kindness, whether one acts upon it or not.[/quote]
Not simply concern but acting on that concern with benevolence constitues kindness. I don't particularly like the word concern as I can be concerned about a lot of things. I can be concerned about the economy. I can be concerned about a leaky faucet. I can be concerned about the spot on my shirt. Kindess requires more than concern or pity. It requires you relate to or empathize with someone and that's harder to do.

[quote]Of course. I never said I was always a kindred soul. Only that usually so I am, until something else happens. Everyone is conditional. It's human nature.[/quote]
I disagree. How do you know someone if everything about them is conditional? How do you trust them? How do you believe them if you can't count on to be who they say they are? Can you say someone is "A" when they do the opposite of "A" with regularity?

What you describe sounds more like a personality of politeness which isn't bad-- it just isn't kindness as I understand it. With kindness you never stop relating to people no matter the situation. You don't view your feelings as being so unique or personal. You wouldn't justify anger as a barrier to kindness. The kind person would use that anger to relate to the irritating person.

[quote]I applaud your efforts in doing so, though I do think that even the best of us cannot hope to accomplish such a feat. However, I do not think anger is itself an irrational thing.[/quote]
I think it is absolutely possible. There has to be a commitment to being so. And anger is not irrational. Of course it's natural. But doing hurtful things out of anger is. Doing something because you have a feeling is irrational.

[quote]It tends to open their eyes. I've tried sound arguments to people in the real world* and it doesn't work all the time. At which point, if I repeatedly try and repeatedly fail, then I lose my temper. Then they start listening.[/quote] Everytime they start listening when you lose your temper?

[quote]*Technically, this is still the real world. Always feels weird to say "IRL" when this is still real life.[/quote]
But it's different. No one knows who you are on the interent. You could do things on the interent that seemingly would never affect your daily life. I think every action no matter the setting affects who you are, but some people don't and if they made such distinctions, I thought it would be worthwhile to note.

[quote]You've never seen me in action.[/quote]
I've seen it in action though and I've never seen it work. Insults start flying after someone draws first blood and its downhill from there. It's never worked on me. I've never listened more after someone started yelling or cursing or started being insulting. That's usally the point I stop listening and either walk away or try to hammer my opinion as they hammer theirs.

[quote]Oh, I've done that. I've been poor many times in the last decade alone, but I always give a homeless person some money or food if I have some on me.[/quote]
That's kindness then. You acted on empathy. Just try to make connections like that with everyone and you'll never stop being kind.

[quote]Even if I personally doubt where the money will be spent, I still give him some money even though I need it.[/quote]
If you know the person -- you give to them or see them often enough -- maybe the next step in showing kindness is helping them in a more long term beneficial way.

[quote]But is turning the other cheek defined the same way in those definitions?[/quote]
Yes. Perhaps I shouldn't say defintions. Concepts may be the the more appropriate word. The phrase "turn the other cheek" is interpretated the same way in each concept because the defintion came from the same source. This psychology today article explains "turn the other cheek" very well. http://www.psycholog...the-other-cheek

[quote]For real life, yes. Granted, I haven't punched a wall in well over a year now despite being angry. 

Online, I tend to not really insult people -- trolls being the exception. I may take issue with their stance, or say it's absurd, or something else and then give as much of a post on why I feel that way as I can -- depending on my mood -- but I won't go "You're a ****ing idiot" and leave it at that.[/quote]
But whatever the insult, do you feel you made it because it made your argument better or because it made you feel better? I don't think there is a wrong answer.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:42 .

[YochiDekinai]

In both real life and online, I am not mean unless someone is mean to me first. I treat people fairly and with kindness unless they decide to be a jerk in return.

[lil yonce]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I try to balance being kind and being honest.

You don't think honesty can be kind? Do you think honesty is always unkind?

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:09 .

[lil yonce]

I tallied every response on kindness so far:

And 10 posters believe they are unconditionally kind.

35 posters stated they are kind with a caveat -- "I am kind, but..." "I am kind when..." "I am kind unless..." "I am kind to [these people]..." . etc.

11 posters said they were not generally kind.

15 posters said they did not know stating, "It's debatable..." "I hope so..." "Some people would say I am..." "I'm not the best judge..." etc.

Not all posts were serious and those were not included in the tally. EDIT: Re-read through the entire thread and included a few more posts, re-evaluated a few posts, and added new posts.

Interesting results BSN.

EDIT: Also posted in the OP. Look there for update on thread polling. This post will not be further updated.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 23 janvier 2013 - 03:32 .

[lil yonce]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Honesty is frank and straightforward, to me. Oftentimes when I'm honest I'm telling people what they may not necessairly want to hear, but something they need to hear. The lack of sugarcoating can definately be precieved as unkind. I do it with the best of intentions, though.

Informing someone of something they need to know is not being unkind. If it is to make them feel small then that would be unkind, but if it is done to benefit them that would be kind. Being honest without tact, without sensitivity would be unkind. If you're empathizing with someone, as kindness requires, you would bring sensitivity to the relationship.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 21 janvier 2013 - 07:45 .

[Volus Warlord]

I am.. Not kind. On both the forums and IRL.

Well, I am told I can be very patient and very polite, but I've never had a good temper.

On top of that.. where should I begin?

Judgmental. Confrontational. Avaricious. Emotionless. Utilitarian view of people. Cold-hearted. Unsympathetic. So on and so forth.

Maybe it's because I'm so privileged.

[Chewin]

My mother tells me that I'm the kindest / sweetest person to exist on this earth. I'm afraid appearances can be deceiving.

In all seriousness though, I generally consider myself kind hearted, but that doesn't exclude me from sometimes being a bit rude to people.

[lil yonce]

Lathrim wrote...

I'm curious, you counted me as...?

I identified you as not generally kind after our dialogue. I think that is what you meant in your clarification rather than "kind with a caveat" as you generally agree with my concept of kindness. If that is wrong, I'll change it though.

For clarification and a more accurate tally, I'll start a poll.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 21 janvier 2013 - 07:00 .

[mousestalker]

I try to be polite always. As far as honesty goes, only when its my business or it concerns something that might hurt the feelings of another person and is easily remedied. Honesty can be cruel or kind, depending upon how it is used. Most of the time a situation is improved by keeping your mouth shut. You get less protein that way, but you also do a lot less harm.

I will tell a person, privately, that they have toilet paper trailing their shoe. I won't give make up suggestions to a burn victim, unless they ask (I have an acquaintance who did that to a friend of mine. He is very shy and her interference made him even more self conscious). Too many people are too free with suggestions, advice and rules for other people which is odd because almost every adult hates being told how to live their life.

[Veganterror]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Lathrim wrote...

I'm curious, you counted me as...?

I identified you as not generally kind after our dialogue. I think that is what you meant in your clarification rather than "kind with a caveat" as you generally agree with my concept of kindness. If that is wrong, I'll change it though.

For clarification and a more accurate tally, I'll start a poll.

Same, I'm curious what you counted me as

[Tiina]

It depends at the situation.

[Shaleene1]

Really it's all about perception. One person could think you nice while another thinks you cruel. I am nice to those who deserve it, cold to those who don't. I consider myself a very loving person, but I know people who think I am terrible because I believe "Do unto others as they do unto you". I won't be friendly and loving toward someone who is cruel and disrespectful in which case I am going to be labeled a heartless cold ****.