190 réponses à ce sujet

[lil yonce]

Belyn wrote...

I don't notice and I don't care if I notice. Its none of my business. If they are safe and going about their business then its none of my business and I do not make it my business. If the situation changes, then so too does my perception. If a child is being beaten, someone is being robbed, someone is injured, then I make the choice to intervene or give aid if I can.

Your first sentence gets at a general trend I'm noticing. People don't notice others specifically strangers and when they do they just don't care or care enough to act. They find nothing about that person to relate to. But I'm unsure about your interpretation of the following sentence-- "Its none of my business."

Say you're in line at a restaraunt and the woman in front of you has three kids under the age of five with her and she just ordered their food. You notice she's trying to get to her wallet and can't. She left it in the car. She thinks. She can't send one of her kids to go get it because they don't know how to unlock and lock the doors. Now she has to leave her kids in the store and search for her wallet and hold up the line and if it turns out she can't find it cancel the order. You approach her and pay for the food. Was that an out of bounds none-of-my-business act of kindness?

What is your definition of kindness? Kindness can be an emotion, a thought or a behavior. Kindness is usually born out of the personality characteristics of compassion, generosity and benevolence. Yes you can physically feel things that are not emotions but, "feelings" as a word usually mean emotions.

As I know it kindness is an act of goodwill born of a relation of the heart. Kindness is an act and not an emotion. You express kindness. What you feel is empathy and a benevolent act you do from empathy is kindness. To say kindness is attached to traits implies not everyone can be kind. It implies you were born kind or you weren't. But if you weren't born kind how can you even occasionally do kind things?

Feelings as emotions, the four basic are happy, sad, angry, scared. From those all other emotions are derived. We learn what our emotions are through experience. Personality characteristics are based in our biological, sociological and environmental influences. 

I would say kindness is not one of them. Say you got a poor nights sleep. You can wake up feeling happy, sad, angry, scared, jealous, surprised, shamed etc., for any number of reasons because of that. You might be happy because now you can sleep in. You might be sad because you have to get up. You might be scared because inexplicably this keeps happening. You might be surprised because you always get a good nights sleep. You might jealous because your spouse did and you didn't. You might ashamed because you vowed to go to bed early but and broke your promise and consequently you're tired. But can you wake up feeling kind because you got a poor nights sleep? Do you feel like doing something nice for a stranger or family member even because you got a good nights sleep?

Within a human being, emotions, thoughts and behaviors can occur simultaneously and have different reasons for occurring. There is also intent. What does the person want to see happen and what do they want to obtain from the situation.

You can have conflicting thoughts or conflicting emotions or thoughts and emotions that conflict or thoughts and behaviors that conflict or emotions and behaviors that conflict but you can't actively practice conflicting behaviors. If you say you are simultaneously giving and selfish what are you going to do when in situations that require you to act? Say you're out late at a party and there is one cookie left on a tray and it's too small to split and there won't be any more food served for the night. Both you and another partygoer who haven't eaten anything want it?

There is no action you can take that would allow you to both eat the whole cookie and give the whole cookie away. You can eat it or you can give it away.

Humans are not just... kind. Or just mean. Or just selfish. Its not that simple. Humans have thoughts, that create emotions that propagate a behavior or more thoughts. All of this occurs very quickly and sometimes simultaneously. 

You believe thoughts always create feelings? You don't just feel things?

When kindness is researched, its usually acts of kindness that is studied. Acts are behaviors. Thus, you really need to define what kindness is, as you are looking at it.

I am more interested in what you think about it and what you think about yourself as a result but I have defined it above and on the sixth or seventh page of this thread.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 24 janvier 2013 - 10:41 .

[lil yonce]

modjospinster wrote...

This was a really interesting poll Youth. Thanks for posting....and the results have been really interesting ^.^

What observations have you made?

[Hainkpe]

Youth4Ever wrote...

Your first sentence gets at a general trend I'm noticing. People don't notice others specifically strangers and when they do they just don't care or care enough to act. They find nothing about that person to relate to. But I'm unsure about your interpretation of the following sentence-- "Its none of my business."

You are making the assumption that there is something to relate too. If the individual has intent with the other person, to get to know them, have a question, then there is a rationale for making contact. If not, there is nothing to drive the individual to do so. Hence, the person "minds their own business." Thus, I mind my own business.

Say you're in line at a restaraunt and the woman in front of you has three kids under the age of five with her and she just ordered their food. You notice she's trying to get to her wallet and can't. She left it in the car. She thinks. She can't send one of her kids to go get it because they don't know how to unlock and lock the doors. Now she has to leave her kids in the store and search for her wallet and hold up the line and if it turns out she can't find it cancel the order. You approach her and pay for the food. Was that an out of bounds none-of-my-business act of kindness?

Supposition. Much of your theoretical situation would require me to know her thoughts. All I would see is a woman in line, struggling with her bag and then perhaps saying something to her children and then leaving. I would not know of her struggle as she most likely would not tell me, a stranger. As I do not have the information, I would not intervene.

As I know it kindness is an act of goodwill born of a relation of the heart. Kindness is an act and not an emotion. You express kindness. What you feel is empathy and a benevolent act you do from empathy is kindness. To say kindness is attached to traits implies not everyone can be kind. It implies you were born kind or you weren't. But if you weren't born kind how can you even occasionally do kind things?

What is the heart? To me its a muscle that resides in my chest. My thoughts, emotions and behaviors originate in my brain. Kindness can be an act and is most often defined as so. You act kind. When you are feeling kind, then you express it. Expression is a physical attribute usually connected to affect. To feel empathy means relating to another person's pain. To be benevolent is expressing kindness or good will. These two are not mutually exclusive. They do not mean that the person would then act kind. It means it would be what the person is experiencing. To act kindly would be a behavior that the person would choose to do.

Yes, people are born without feeling compassion for others. The popular term is sociopath. In clinical terms, it can be antisocial personality disorder or of the autism spectrum. Yet, these individuals may have feelings for others. They may appear indifferent but that doesn't mean that they would be "mean." Simply, indifferent.

I would say kindness is not one of them. Say you got a poor nights sleep. You can wake up feeling happy, sad, angry, scared, jealous, surprised, shamed etc., for any number of reasons because of that. You might be happy because now you can sleep in. You might be sad because you have to get up. You might be scared because inexplicably this keeps happening. You might be surprised because you always get a good nights sleep. You might jealous because your spouse did and you didn't. You might ashamed because you vowed to go to bed early but and broke your promise and consequently you're tired. But can you wake up feeling kind because you got a poor nights sleep? Do you feel like doing something nice for a stranger or family member even because you got a good nights sleep?

A poor nights sleep is a physical condition. You would awake physically tired. What that means in terms of your day, that would be highly individualized. Context is needed. For example, a person, we will say a man. He may have gotten a poor nights sleep because his wife was in labor and they just had a baby. The man maybe physically tired but excited and happy due to the situation. Again, the outcome isn't just the situation but the persons thoughts in relation to that situation. Its highly context oriented.

You can have conflicting thoughts or conflicting emotions or thoughts and emotions that conflict or thoughts and behaviors that conflict or emotions and behaviors that conflict but you can't actively practice conflicting behaviors. If you say you are simultaneously giving and selfish what are you going to do when in situations that require you to act? Say you're out late at a party and there is one cookie left on a tray and it's too small to split and there won't be any more food served for the night. Both you and another partygoer who haven't eaten anything want it?

There is no action you can take that would allow you to both eat the whole cookie and give the whole cookie away. You can eat it or you can give it away.

In that example, no you can't but there are a million of examples where you can. For example, a person signs over their house to their daughter. Outside looking in, it may appear a parent is helping their child. Inside looking out, the parents maybe hiding assets in order to enter a nursing home. So the act can be perceived by others as kind but the reality is, the act was selfish. Unless you know the context then you could be mistaken.

To use your example, there is one cookie left. You and your friend both want it but your friend whines and whines so you give it to them, after spitting on it. Outside looking in, that looks like a kind act. Inside looking out, that was mean. Again, intent and context highlight very important aspects of the situation.

Context is everything. Intent is necessary in order to understand the event. Human behavior does not occur in a vacuum and humans tend to not disclose all their private thoughts. Its the social desirability aspect.

You believe thoughts always create feelings? You don't just feel things?

My training teaches me to see behaviors as part of an overall system. Its called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. The man who created it is Aaron Beck. He formed the Beck Institute to teach behavioral health professionals the therapeutic technique. Feel free to google it.

I am more interested in what you think about it and what you think about yourself as a result but I have defined it above and on the sixth or seventh page of this thread.

I am more than willing to tell you what I think and what I was taught. I am unwilling to tell you more than what I have said. Good luck.

Modifié par Belyn, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:30 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]Belyn wrote...

You are making the assumption that there is something to relate too. If the individual has intent with the other person, to get to know them, have a question, then there is a rationale for making contact. If not, there is nothing to drive the individual to do so. Hence, the person "minds their own business." Thus, I mind my own business.[/quote]
So there is always a motive behind kindness? You have to want to "get to know them"? Or generally want something? Like a question answered to be kind to someone?




[quote]Supposition. Much of your theoretical situation would require me to know her thoughts. All I would see is a woman in line, struggling with her bag and then perhaps saying something to her children and then leaving. I would not know of her struggle as she most likely would not tell me, a stranger. As I do not have the information, I would not intervene.[/quote]
You overheard her as she rambled the situation at the counter. I'll clarify she was thinking out loud and everyone in earshot heard her.




[quote]What is the heart? To me its a muscle that resides in my chest. My thoughts, emotions and behaviors originate in my brain. [/quote]
\\The spirit. The soul. The intuition. The gut. The mind or brain if that is your prefered term. I say heart because that is how it is commonly recognized today. You hear often "He did it out of the kindness of his heart." Just an easily understood term.




[quote]Kindness can be an act and is most often defined as so. You act kind. When you are feeling kind, then you express it. Expression is a physical attribute usually connected to affect. To feel empathy means relating to another person's pain. To be benevolent is expressing kindness or good will. These two are not mutually exclusive. They do not mean that the person would then act kind. It means it would be what the person is experiencing. To act kindly would be a behavior that the person would choose to do.[/quote]
Exactly. You don't have to act kindly. Its a choice. Its isn't a feeling you get that you can't control having. You can't feel kind. You can't feel kind on the inside as I've recently read either. If I said I was a kind person and someone asked me what kind things I did exactly and I respond with I do nothing -- I just feel kind -- That doesn't compute. That doesn't work because kindness is something you express.

You can't tell someone to be happy. You're telling them to stop feeling sad -- stop feeling an emotion and you can't control how you feel. But you can preach kindness. You call tell someone to be kind because you aren't telling them to stop feeling anything. You can do something for someone when you're happy and when you're sad. Most people chose not to and focus on how they feel but you can be kind regardless of your emotional state.




[quote]Yes, people are born without feeling compassion for others. The popular term is sociopath. In clinical terms, it can be antisocial personality disorder or of the autism spectrum. Yet, these individuals may have feelings for others. They may appear indifferent but that doesn't mean that they would be "mean." Simply, indifferent. [/quote]
The evaluation of antisocial personality disorder doesn't include being born without the ability to empathize. It requires at the time of diagonsis that the patient doesn't demonstrate the ability and that is based on typical behavior and not every act they've ever commited. It could in part influenced by genetics but there are signigicant environmental factors to be accounted for in its expression.


[quote]Snip --

 You might ashamed because you vowed to go to bed early but and broke your promise and consequently you're tired. But can you wake up feeling kind because you got a poor nights sleep? Do you feel like doing something nice for a stranger or family member even because you got a good nights sleep?[/quote]

[quote]A poor nights sleep is a physical condition. You would awake physically tired.[/quote]
I mentioned that. "Consequently you're tired."



[quote]What that means in terms of your day, that would be highly individualized. Context is needed. For example, a person, we will say a man. He may have gotten a poor nights sleep because his wife was in labor and they just had a baby. The man maybe physically tired but excited and happy due to the situation.[/quote]
I don't think I denied this a possibility. And you might be happy simply because now you can sleep in to make up for a poor nights rest.



[quote]Again, the outcome isn't just the situation but the persons thoughts in relation to that situation. Its highly context oriented.[/quote]
If you believe emotions originate in the mind or brain that is fine. As I said the heart or soul or mind or brain etc. You feel through it. After getting a good nights sleep do you think about kindness? Do you think "I'm feeling kind today," as an outcome of not being tired? After getting a good nights sleep do you feel how you're going to relate to someone and do something for them?




[quote]In that example, no you can't but there are a million of examples where you can. For example, a person signs over their house to their daughter. Outside looking in, it may appear a parent is helping their child. Inside looking out, the parents maybe hiding assets in order to enter a nursing home. So the act can be perceived by others as kind but the reality is, the act was selfish. Unless you know the context then you could be mistaken.[/quote]
That is not kindness no matter how it is spun. Kindness isn't a distorted perception. It is a real thing. There is not motive behind kindness. There is nothing to be gained when being kind. In your example that would be tricky and not kindness.




[quote]To use your example, there is one cookie left. You and your friend both want it but your friend whines and whines so you give it to them, after spitting on it. Outside looking in, that looks like a kind act. Inside looking out, that was mean. Again, intent and context highlight very important aspects of the situation.[/quote]
That is not kindness either. You didn't choose to do anything. You didn't choose to act. The friend made the decision for you when they spat on it.



[quote]Context is everything. Intent is necessary in order to understand the event. Human behavior does not occur in a vacuum and humans tend to not disclose all their private thoughts. Its the social desirability aspect.[/quote]
There is not intent or motive behind kindness. That is why it is called being kind instead of being sly or being tricky or being cunning like a con artist etc. 




[quote]My training teaches me to see behaviors as part of an overall system. Its called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. The man who created it is Aaron Beck. He formed the Beck Institute to teach behavioral health professionals the therapeutic technique. Feel free to google it.[/quote]
I know of Behaviorism in general.




[quote]I am more than willing to tell you what I think and what I was taught. I am unwilling to tell you more than what I have said. Good luck. [/quote]
Okay then... [shrug].

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 25 janvier 2013 - 03:37 .

[lil yonce]

J. Reezy wrote...

This discussion going on between you two be hella interesting tbh.

J. Reezy, are you kind? I don't think you've answered yet.

[Hainkpe]

[quote]Youth4Ever wrote...
So there is always a motive behind kindness? You have to want to "get to know them"? Or generally want something like a question answered to be kind to someone?[/quote]

Intent is part of human behavior. Its inherent to choice and thought processes as a whole.


[quote]You overheard her as she rambled the situation at the counter. I'll clarify she was thinking out loud and everyone in earshot heard her.[/quote]

Again its all hypothetical. My response would depend on many things, predominantly, if I could afford to pay. Most likely, the outcome of the scenario would be the clerk/cashier offering to hold her food while she retrieved said wallet. This does happen and it is not an aspect that would require a stranger to purchase the food for the woman.. If the woman reported she didn't have the money then other resources would be a better option. Such as information on a food shelf or informing her to contact her county about assistance.


[quote]The spirit. The soul. The intuition. The gut. The mind or brain if that is your prefered term. I say heart because that is how it is commonly recognized today. You hear often "He did it out of the kindness of his heart." Just an easily understood term.[/quote]

Metaphysical aside. Kindness is an act. Where you identify it as originating is purely personal choice.


[quote]Exactly. You don't have to act kindly. Its a choice. Its isn't a feeling you get that you can control having. You can't feel kind. You can't feel kind on the inside as I've recently read either. If I said I was a kind person and someone asked me what kind things I did exactly and I respond with I do nothing -- I just feel kind -- That doesn't compute. That doesn't work because kindness is something you express.[/quote]

To that person, the feeling/emotion they label as feeling kind, is their reality. Its how they identify their emotion. Just as you earlier identified the heart as the originating center for kindness. So to does this person perceive kindness as an emotion. A person can feel empathy and compassion but choose to not act in a kind manner. It doesn't invalidate their feeling. Its their feeling.


[quote]You can't tell someone to be happy. You're telling them to stop feeling sad -- stop feeling an emotion and you can't control how you feel. But you can preach kindness. You call tell someone to be kind because you aren't telling them to stop feeling anything. You can do something for someone when you're happy and when you're sad. Most people chose not to and focus on how they feel but you can be kind regardless of your emotional state.[/quote]

Actually research shows that modeling kindness to children makes them happy. You can't tell them but you can show them. They can experience kindness as a way to feel good, not in the receiving but in the giving.


[quote]The evaluation of antisocial personality disorder doesn't include being born without the ability to empathize. It requires at the time of diagonsis that the patient doesn't demonstrate the ability and that is based on typical behavior and not every act they've ever commited. It could in part be genetic but there are signigicant environmental factors to be accounted for in its expression.[/quote]

Antisocial personality disorder is a next step in an evaluation related to the person's bio-psycho-social where information on their history is gathered. As a personality disorder is pervasive, a good clinician would look to the individuals behavior as an adolescent and determine if they had behaviors that would constitute conduct disorder. An aspect of conduct disorder is lack of empathy. A behavior that is a result is the harming of animals. It's a spectrum. That doesn't mean all people who have these disorders are bad people. Far from it. It just means it's a diagnosis and negative connotations should not be placed.

[quote]
I mentioned that. "Consequently you're tired."[/quote]
Tired can be emotional, psychological and intellectual. Not necessarily physical. People can be "tired' due to Depression or a medical condition. This may or may not impact their choice in doing a kind act.


[quote]I don't think I denied this a possibility. And you might be happy simply because now you can sleep in to make up for a poor nights rest.[/quote]

Or you could be happy because you have another shift but in a day your weekend begins.


[quote]If you believe emotions originate in the mind or brain that is fine. As I said the heart or soul or mind or brain etc. You feel through it. After getting a good nights sleep do you think about kindness? Do you think "I'm feeling kind today," as an outcome of not being tired? After getting a good nights sleep do you feel how you're going to relate to someone and do something for them?[/quote]

Equating a good nights sleep with a positive attitude does not make a case for kindness. It makes a case for being well rested. If you are well rested, you can do many things. One choice is to do a kind act. If that person is so inclined.


[quote]That is not kindness no matter how it is spun. Kindness isn't a distorted perception. It is a real thing. There is not motive behind kindness. There is nothing to be gained when being kind. In your example that would be tricky and not kindness.[/quote]

Then how would you define kindness? As an act you can observe or as a behavior you are choosing to do? Kindness itself can be the intent. Having intent does not take away from the act.

Example: Over a year ago, I volunteered to ring the bell for Salvation Army at a local department store. People would come and put money in the red bucket. A woman came and she was digging and digging in her purse. She pulls out this handful of pennies. She drops them in the bucket and fishes for more. Soon she can't find another penny so she smiles and laughs as she says to me, "My bag is lighter!" Then she leaves. She made a donation that would help people in need. Her intent though was to alleviate the burden of the weight of her bag. Does that take away from her act of kindness? Who am I to judge?

She could have easily taken the money out of her bag at home. Instead she chose to do a kind act when she saw the opportunity, as well as to alleviate the weight of her bag. Both occurred simultaneously but it didn't take away from her act.

My choice to ring the bell wasn't an act of kindness but one of charity. I stood in the cold, rang a bell and had to listen to God aweful music the entire time I did it. Yet, I did it because it was what I believe in to do. Giving to charity doesn't make you kind. Its a behavior. In fact, there are cultures in the world that believe a certain sum of their money should be given to the poor. Not because they personally believe in doing it rather because it would make them a good person in the eyes of God. Is that kindness?


[quote]That is not kindness either. You didn't chose to do anything. You didn't chose to act. The friend made the decision for you when they spit on it.[/quote]

Outside looking in, you wouldn't know and could misjudge the behavior. Where do you start and stop the line at labeling something as kind?

Example. A friend of the family had a horse that went lame. It was in pain. There was nothing that could be done. He shot the horse to put it out of its pain.

To some, that is an act of kindness. To others, he killed an animal needlessly. Where is the difference? Whose perception do you follow or choose to employ?


[quote]There is not intent or motive behind kindness. That is why it is called being kind instead of being sly or being tricky or being cunning like a con artist etc. [/quote]

Again, outside looking in. Context is highly important. What can look like kindness could be in fact something else.


[quote]I know of Behaviorism in general.[/quote]
Going to uni for a bachelors in Psychology?


[quote]Okay then... [shrug].[/quote]
As I said, I can talk about this subject.

Modifié par Belyn, 25 janvier 2013 - 01:29 .

[lil yonce]

[quote]Belyn wrote...

Intent is part of human behavior. Its inherent to choice and thought processes as a whole.[/quote]
A girl at the bus stop dropped her books trying to get to her ticket. I've never seen her in my life. I wasn't thinking about anything with the exception of how cold it was and how the bus was late and how I wish I had a pair of gloves. But I knew she was embarrased and I picked up her stuff. She said thank you. I said no problem. We didn't speak again. I went back to wishing the bus would hurry up and thinking about how I didn't have any gloves in the cold. She didn't have a pair of gloves either. She didn't have a car. She wasn't getting a ride and she had a jacket instead of a coat. There was no motive. There was no angle. It was a gift essentially.

Real kindness is a gift.


[quote]Again its all hypothetical. My response would depend on many things, predominantly, if I could afford to pay. Most likely, the outcome of the scenario would be the clerk/cashier offering to hold her food while she retrieved said wallet. This does happen and it is not an aspect that would require a stranger to purchase the food for the woman.. If the woman reported she didn't have the money then other resources would be a better option. Such as information on a food shelf or informing her to contact her county about assistance.[/quote]
Middle class woman with three kids and assuming she had her wallet where she could find it yes she could pay for it easily.



[quote]Metaphysical aside. Kindness is an act. Where you identify it as originating is purely personal choice.[/quote]
It is a choice to act. Its a choice to be kind.



[quote]To that person, the feeling/emotion they label as feeling kind, is their reality. Its how they identify their emotion.[/quote]
Is their perception the truth and not only their truth?



[quote]Just as you earlier identified the heart as the originating center for kindness. So to does this person perceive kindness as an emotion. A person can feel empathy and compassion but choose to not act in a kind manner. It doesn't invalidate their feeling. Its their feeling.[/quote]
I don't believe I said it did-- invalidated their feelings. It just means you weren't kind. You didn't do something kind -- you weren't kind. I agree with the bolded. You can't choose to feel-- you just do. That's why you can't feel kindness because its an act you can choose or choose not to engage in. And perception isn't necessarily the truth. If I say I'm a writer and someone asks me what I've written and I say nothing I just have stories in my head that doesn't compute. I'm not a writer. You have to write to be a writer. Same thing with kindness.



[quote]Actually research shows that modeling kindness to children makes them happy. You can't tell them but you can show them. They can experience kindness as a way to feel good, not in the receiving but in the giving.[/quote]
It can feel good but you can practice it when you feel badly and not only when you feel good -- that was my point. And feeling good in this situation requires the act of kindness to have occured. They didn't feel the effects of kindness without doing something kind. Kindness wasn't the feeling.



[quote]Antisocial personality disorder is a next step in an evaluation related to the person's bio-psycho-social where information on their history is gathered. As a personality disorder is pervasive, a good clinician would look to the individuals behavior as an adolescent and determine if they had behaviors that would constitute conduct disorder. An aspect of conduct disorder is lack of empathy. A behavior that is a result is the harming of animals. It's a spectrum. That doesn't mean all people who have these disorders are bad people. Far from it. It just means it's a diagnosis and negative connotations should not be placed.[/quote]
I don't think I placed negative connotations on the person with the disorder. Simply its not a requirement the patient be born without the ability to empathize for diagnosis. They haven't shown a history of it but that is not the same as being unable to do it at birth. There are theories that support genetics as risk factors or as influential in the expression of antisocial personality disorder but there is no more evidence to suggest environmental factors don't contribute similarly or are less significant in the development of the disorder. I haven't read that someone with a particular gene is going to be unable to empathize period.



[quote]Tired can be emotional, psychological and intellectual. Not necessarily physical. People can be "tired' due to Depression or a medical condition. This may or may not impact their choice in doing a kind act.[/quote]
Because the example concerns sleep deprivation it would be physical tiredness.



[quote]Or you could be happy because you have another shift but in a day your weekend begins.[/quote]
Absolutely.



[quote]Equating a good nights sleep with a positive attitude does not make a case for kindness. It makes a case for being well rested. If you are well rested, you can do many things. One choice is to do a kind act. If that person is so inclined. [/quote]
Can you think of a reason at for feeling kind after becoming well rested? You think of a reason for feeling happy so can you think of a reason for feeling kind?



[quote]Then how would you define kindness? As an act you can observe or as a behavior you are choosing to do? Kindness itself can be the intent. Having intent does not take away from the act.[/quote]
Firstly, as I know it kindess is a behavior you choose to engage in. Secondly, if you're being kind just to be kind that isn't kindness. Kindness is born of empathy and not of itself. It doesn't negate that an act was "kind" but in a scenario you describe (personally I would call it "nice" at most and not kind) it was an act in a theatrical sense. A put on. Or it mimicked kindness.



[quote]Example: Over a year ago, I volunteered to ring the bell for Salvation Army at a local department store. People would come and put money in the red bucket. A woman came and she was digging and digging in her purse. She pulls out this handful of pennies. She drops them in the bucket and fishes for more. Soon she can't find another penny so she smiles and laughs as she says to me, "My bag is lighter!" Then she leaves. She made a donation that would help people in need. Her intent though was to alleviate the burden of the weight of her bag. Does that take away from her act of kindness? Who am I to judge?[/quote]
It wasn't born of empathy for the needy. It was about lightening her coin purse. Making her life easier because she doesn't have to lug around a heavy bag. I won't say it was a bad thing but a kind thing? No. I wouldn't call it that.



[quote]She could have easily taken the money out of her bag at home. Instead she chose to do a kind act when she saw the opportunity, as well as to alleviate the weight of her bag. Both occurred simultaneously but it didn't take away from her act.[/quote]
She did it because it was convienient for her. Ultimately was it a good thing? Yes. The change helps the poor. But was it a kind thing? No.



[quote]My choice to ring the bell wasn't an act of kindness but one of charity. I stood in the cold, rang a bell and had to listen to God aweful music the entire time I did it. Yet, I did it because it was what I believe in to do. Giving to charity doesn't make you kind. Its a behavior. In fact, there are cultures in the world that believe a certain sum of their money should be given to the poor. Not because they personally believe in doing it rather because it would make them a good person in the eyes of God. Is that kindness?[/quote]
I agree. Its not kindness. Being kind to build yourself up or look good is not kindness. The bible tells its followers to be kind. Specifically Ephesians 4:32 says Be kind to one another, tenderhearted.... Foremost the bible instructs its followers to be loving. Love thy neighbor. And to be loving you have to relate to people. Be tenderhearted -- compassionate. Tenderheartedness a requirement of lovingkindness. You can't love yourself more than you love others and be kind. You can't put yourself before others and be kind. What you feel or what you want is not more important than what someone else feels or wants in the larger scheme of things. You have to acknowledge that to be kind. This belief enables followers of the bible to be loving -- to be tenderhearted and consequently kind. But you don't have to follow the bible to be kind. It works the same way for everyone.



[quote]Outside looking in, you wouldn't know and could misjudge the behavior. Where do you start and stop the line at labeling something as kind? [/quote]
I do want perception but I'm not concerned so much about how kindness is wrongly judged. I'm concerned more with what kindness is and who is kind.



[quote]Example. A friend of the family had a horse that went lame. It was in pain. There was nothing that could be done. He shot the horse to put it out of its pain. To some, that is an act of kindness. To others, he killed an animal needlessly. Where is the difference? Whose perception do you follow or choose to employ?[/quote]
Alleviating the suffering of others is kindness. If there was nothing else that could be done that wouldn't be needless death.



[quote]Again, outside looking in. Context is highly important. What can look like kindness could be in fact something else.[/quote]
Then you believe kindness doesn't actually exist as a concept?



[quote]Going to uni for a bachelors in Psychology?[/quote]
English Lit major. Minor in philosophy.



[quote]As I said, I can talk about this subject.[/quote]
I thought you wrote you were ending the discussion. My mistake.

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 25 janvier 2013 - 03:37 .

[rapscallioness]

About ppl not noticing strangers and then not caring abt them if they do notice them:

My 2 cents worth---I live in a fairly rural area now, but I was born and raised in the city. It's difficult to explain the difference, but I'll try.

In the city you definitely notice each other, but you learn not to be obvious about it...because there is...possibility of threat. Either, you will be perceived as being a threat, or that other person may be a threat.

Sometimes ppl are afraid to act kindly because they are afraid they will be taken advantage of because it was ruse. And they may be putting themselves in danger.

I think most ppl would like to be more kind, but are afraid.

In the city, you keep to yourself. It's also considered rude behavior to be minding someone else's business. There's alot of regular ppl, but there's also more than a few aggressive, mentally ill ppl wandering the streets. There's also straight up criminals looking for a target.

You notice everything, more so than ppl in rural, or suburban areas because it's a matter of survival. You don't make eye contact while walking down the city street--or you keep it very brief because it does open up a connection. It invites an interaction you may not want.

When I moved out to this more rural area---whew--it took a long while for me to adjust to how ppl are here. Complete strangers just start talking to you. Long conversations telling you all their business.

They're much more helpful. Courteous. Small things, but it was so weird to me. And out here it's considered rude to not mind other ppl's biz. To not be involved. Or helpful.

I think overpopulation has something to do with it. I saw a study once--and I'm sorry I can't find--it was years ago. But in this study w/mice, they had a fair amount in their environment. And the mice instinctively treated each other well. Even in their mating process they were not aggressive. They had a certain "dance", if you will, that they heeded.

Then the scientist put alot more mice in together, and there was a marked diff in the way they treated each other. They became much more aggressive with other. Much more aggressive towards the females--the respectful back and forth ritual they did with the female prior to mating was gone. They would just jump her.

In general, the more mice that were locked up together--the more aggressive they became.

Also, even so called acts of kindness can be selfish. Ppl can act kind to others cuz it makes them look good. The act can be used in a passive aggressive way. Or to try to set themselves up as better than everyone else. There are ppl that act kind cuz they think there will be sum kinda pay off for themselves.

So, I don;t think true kindness can be accurately judged by an act of kindness. I think the only true measure is the intent behind the act. And no one will ever know that. Sometimes not even the ppl if they're not totally honest with themselves. And really who's totally honest with themselves.

Why are ppl rude on the internet? sigh...well, some ppl do have real anger management issues, or mental health issues. The internet is a very large community. You may have cultural differences in how ppl express themselves. You have miscommunication because it's text only.

Sometimes ppl are only speaking matter of factly and it can come off as offensive, or hostile cuz there's no tone of voice to clarify it.

As a species we rely heavily on non verbal---or non "word" communication to express ourselves. Now we find ourselves in an age when so much communication is being done only with words. It's like we have to re educate ourselves on how to communicate more effectively in this new age. Without body language;facial expressions; tone of voice.

I'm tired now. I need to go.

[lil yonce]

rapscallioness wrote...

In the city you definitely notice each other, but you learn not to be obvious about it...because there is...possibility of threat. Either, you will be perceived as being a threat, or that other person may be a threat. Sometimes ppl are afraid to act kindly because they are afraid they will be taken advantage of because it was ruse. And they may be putting themselves in danger. I think most ppl would like to be more kind, but are afraid.

So the fear is your kindness may be met with deception? The fear is someone might be threatening? Even a perceived regular person-- the majority-- someone like you-- they might be a threat to you? That's interesting.

In the city, you keep to yourself. It's also considered rude behavior to be minding someone else's business.

What would be an out-of-bounds act of kindness? 

There's alot of regular ppl, but there's also more than a few aggressive, mentally ill ppl wandering the streets. There's also straight up criminals looking for a target. You notice everything, more so than ppl in rural, or suburban areas because it's a matter of survival. You don't make eye contact while walking down the city street--or you keep it very brief because it does open up a connection. It invites an interaction you may not want.

I understand protecting yourself against the obvious threats and I don't think kindness requires you do something ill-advised-- its reasonable behavior. If you called the police to arrest a criminal that was a kind thing you did.

When I moved out to this more rural area---whew--it took a long while for me to adjust to how ppl are here. Complete strangers just start talking to you. Long conversations telling you all their business. They're much more helpful. Courteous. Small things, but it was so weird to me. And out here it's considered rude to not mind other ppl's biz. To not be involved. Or helpful.

Where are you happier living? In the city or in the country?

I think overpopulation has something to do with it. I saw a study once--and I'm sorry I can't find--it was years ago. But in this study w/mice, they had a fair amount in their environment. And the mice instinctively treated each other well. Even in their mating process they were not aggressive. They had a certain "dance", if you will, that they heeded. Then the scientist put alot more mice in together, and there was a marked diff in the way they treated each other. They became much more aggressive with other. Much more aggressive towards the females--the respectful back and forth ritual they did with the female prior to mating was gone. They would just jump her. In general, the more mice that were locked up together--the more aggressive they became.

That does sound like the same way people generally behave in well-off groups. If space and food are plentiful you don't have to share or be kind-- there is enough for every mouse to be comfortable and have its own. There was no choice for the mouse to make about kindness. But when they had the opportunity to be kind in an overpopulated environment with little food they weren't.

Also, even so called acts of kindness can be selfish. Ppl can act kind to others cuz it makes them look good. The act can be used in a passive aggressive way. Or to try to set themselves up as better than everyone else. There are ppl that act kind cuz they think there will be sum kinda pay off for themselves.

I wouldn't call that kindness then. It was an act in a theatrical sense. A put on. It was pretend. Or it mimicked kindness but it wasn't genuine kindness.

So, I don;t think true kindness can be accurately judged by an act of kindness. I think the only true measure is the intent behind the act. And no one will ever know that. Sometimes not even the ppl if they're not totally honest with themselves. And really who's totally honest with themselves.

But there is no intent behind kindness. There is no motive or angle. If there were that would be manipulation and not kindness. Kindness is born of empathy and there is no motive behind empathy.

Why are ppl rude on the internet? sigh...well, some ppl do have real anger management issues, or mental health issues. The internet is a very large community.

If we use the bell curve most posters you encounter on the internet will not have anger management or mental health issues that promt unkindness. They would be a tiny segment of the internet population.

You may have cultural differences in how ppl express themselves. You have miscommunication because it's text only. Sometimes ppl are only speaking matter of factly and it can come off as offensive, or hostile cuz there's no tone of voice to clarify it. As a species we rely heavily on non verbal---or non "word" communication to express ourselves. Now we find ourselves in an age when so much communication is being done only with words. It's like we have to re educate ourselves on how to communicate more effectively in this new age. Without body language;facial expressions; tone of voice.

So unkindness is only perception? For example someone wasn't actually rude to you that's just how you read it?

[lil yonce]

The Science of Kindness --

UC Berkeley Psychology website -- Greater Good: The Science Behind a Meaningful Life.
http://greatergood.b...u/about/history

The Compassionate Instinct -- http://greatergood.b...ionate_instinct

Modifié par Youth4Ever, 26 janvier 2013 - 12:02 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Well, I'm not a serial killer so I guess I'm kind.

[NWN_baba yaga]

I´m only kind when i want to. I´m good as I am evil!

[Noctis Augustus]

Sometimes, but only with people that I like.