391 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The quarians aren't the main focus. They are a secondary race. We knwo from the codex on Reaper Destroyers that the Destroyers are qoute "the remains of the races not harvested to be capitol ships."
So they DO harvest all the races. Some are considered more valuble then others. So they would have gotten to the quarians eventually. Also, with those upgrades, the geth should have rolled over the quarians completely by the time Shepard was called in. I think the Reapers were trapping the quarians there, until they could be harvested.
And the quarians get destroyed by the geth, not the Reapers. The geth themselves make that choice. Counter-strike six.

Damn... you know, I never looked at it that way, but it really does make perfect sense. The Reaper-controlled Geth are just as capable of destroying the Quarians as the post-upload Geth, but the Reaper-controlled Geth don't destroy them. In fact, the map description of the Migrant Fleet says something to the effect that  "it is a testament to Quarian tactical prowess that so few losses have been absorbed."

The Reaper-controlled Geth blockade the Mass Relay to prevent the Quarians from escaping (the whole point of Koris' mission is to keep the Civilian Fleet from rushing this blockade in a panicked, and ultimately failed, attempt to escape the fight). It makes sense that they're "corraling" them in-system to be harvested once bigger prizes (Asari, Turian, Human - the species with billions to their names instead of millions) have been finished off.

Incidentally, this is exactly why the Quarians had to attack when they did. They waited until the Reapers hit, then they could wait no longer - Legion severed contact with no progress made, and from that point forward, if the Reapers caught the Quarians in space, they'd be dead. The Reapers would employ the same tactic they have their Geth thralls use. Block relay access, and all you can do is fight (and get stomped) or flee out-system until you're out of fuel and wait around to either starve or get picked off.

By the way, I don't know if it's been brought up... but how did a Reaper Destroyer manage to end up on Rannoch without the Geth knowing about it?

Perhaps they DID know. That WAS a geth blast shield covering it at the Rannoch base. They could have willingly let it in, after they made their deal with the devils, in order to counter the quarian offensive.

[Meltemph]

Well, the geth were dumber at that point and we have no idea what the reaper code that the geth were given actually does(one of the main reasons I'm always tempted to destroy the geth anyways). The geth needing the reaper code to survive is a very annoying caveat of that whole scenario, because I dont want them basing their higher "brain" function based on reaper algorithms.

[DeinonSlayer]

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The quarians aren't the main focus. They are a secondary race. We knwo from the codex on Reaper Destroyers that the Destroyers are qoute "the remains of the races not harvested to be capitol ships."
So they DO harvest all the races. Some are considered more valuble then others. So they would have gotten to the quarians eventually. Also, with those upgrades, the geth should have rolled over the quarians completely by the time Shepard was called in. I think the Reapers were trapping the quarians there, until they could be harvested.
And the quarians get destroyed by the geth, not the Reapers. The geth themselves make that choice. Counter-strike six.

Damn... you know, I never looked at it that way, but it really does make perfect sense. The Reaper-controlled Geth are just as capable of destroying the Quarians as the post-upload Geth, but the Reaper-controlled Geth don't destroy them. In fact, the map description of the Migrant Fleet says something to the effect that  "it is a testament to Quarian tactical prowess that so few losses have been absorbed."

The Reaper-controlled Geth blockade the Mass Relay to prevent the Quarians from escaping (the whole point of Koris' mission is to keep the Civilian Fleet from rushing this blockade in a panicked, and ultimately failed, attempt to escape the fight). It makes sense that they're "corraling" them in-system to be harvested once bigger prizes (Asari, Turian, Human - the species with billions to their names instead of millions) have been finished off.

Incidentally, this is exactly why the Quarians had to attack when they did. They waited until the Reapers hit, then they could wait no longer - Legion severed contact with no progress made, and from that point forward, if the Reapers caught the Quarians in space, they'd be dead. The Reapers would employ the same tactic they have their Geth thralls use. Block relay access, and all you can do is fight (and get stomped) or flee out-system until you're out of fuel and wait around to either starve or get picked off.

By the way, I don't know if it's been brought up... but how did a Reaper Destroyer manage to end up on Rannoch without the Geth knowing about it?

Perhaps they DID know. That WAS a geth blast shield covering it at the Rannoch base. They could have willingly let it in, after they made their deal with the devils, in order to counter the quarian offensive.

Either that, or the Old Machines extended their offer prior to the Quarian offensive, and the Geth didn't take them up on it until their backs were against the wall. There's no way that destroyer showed up and flew down to Rannoch undetected after the Quarians were already in-system.

The Destroyer was probably hidden there before the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. As with Sovereign before it, the Geth deliberated on whether or not to take the Destroyer up on its offer - and ultimately accepted. The Reapers could have taken advantage of this in the manner you noted - wait until the Quarians were all in the system, THEN augment the Geth and let them corral the Quarians until the Reapers got around to harvesting them.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:42 .

[Meltemph]

The Destroyer was probably hidden there before the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. As with Sovereign before it, the Geth deliberated on whether or not to take the Destroyer up on its offer - and ultimately accepted. The Reapers could have taken advantage of this in the manner you noted - wait until the Quarians were all in the system, THEN augment the Geth and let them corral the Quarians until the Reapers got around to harvesting them.

Eh, I doubt that was the writers intent. More then likely the "timeline" was left out of our personal interaction(considering we were technically gone from earth for what? 6 months or something?).

Modifié par Meltemph, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:49 .

[silverexile17s]

3DandBeyond wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

If you can pull off Arrival as early as post-Horison, and Hackett lets you go scott-free all that time, I doubt an extra week or two would have killed them. Especally since it seems Arrival is ment to be played post-Suicide Mission. And Hackett sais he'd stall as long as he could. Which, if post Suicide Mission, would be perhaps a whole extra month.
So no, Cerberus and Arrival have NO bearring on Shepard being able to have started relations with the geth.

And the Alliance seizing the ship is BS, when the ship docked on the Citadel (the last place a Cerberus ship would be safe at) multiple times and wasn't impounded. Anderson and Hackett keep the Alliance and the Council off Shepard's back. And it only becomes trying after Arrival.

So none of that affects Shepard contacting the geth What-so-ever.

Uh no.

Except Shepard was trying to stop the Collectors from killing people and destroying colonies.  Shepard was also trying to build up a team and find the tech needed to get to the Collector base, so I don't think in ME2, they should have gone completely off track and along with Legion's loyalty mission, try to broker peace with the geth.  This then becomes some idea of ME2 making a mistake because Shepard didn't help the geth make friends?  Shepard doesn't meet Legion until looking for the IFF, so Shepard has no idea about the heretics until then and just thinks the geth were helping Saren and Sovereign.

For the record, I hate the Arrival, but even if you don't play it, Shepard is still in custody.  Good luck trying to go and broker a peace between the geth (who are still thought to all have been working with Saren and Sovereign).  And Shepard couldn't vouch for the geth.  Nobody in power believed Shepard (well Hackett and Anderson did but they have their fingers stuck in their noses and are no help) about anything, so I doubt that they'd believe Shepard about the geth.  In fact, the council races all believed Sovereign was a geth creation and that they'd used it to try and destroy the citadel.  So, explain how that all would work.  Shepard kept telling them Sovereign was a reaper and that it wasn't the geth and in ME2, the Alliance had Shepard going after the geth, even when they knew the Collectors were destroying colonies.

At what point was Shepard going to get anyone to believe the geth wanna be BFFs?  The galaxy would shoot on sight and would have locked Shepard up after all that happened in ME1-and they would have thrown away the key.  And Hackett and Anderson would have their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears, "la la la la la".

This is the same brain trust that let Shepard take the heat for The Arrival, when they could have created a story that let Shepard go free and help them prepare for the reapers. 

Or, it's the same brain trust that arrested Shepard no matter what.  In my game, since I only played the Arrival once "seriously" before I knew what it was about and then other times to refresh my memory, my Shepard doesn't do anything worthy of being locked up.  She was a Spectre and was using Cerberus to destroy the Collectors and save human colonies.  She completed the loyalty missions without killing or letting others be killed.  She forced those she worked with to choose to let their foes live.  And she save a lot of lives.  Cerberus had brought her back to life, and she was a Spectre so working with Cerberus wasn't out of order.  But, she didn't give information to Cerberus when she had the choice to either destroy it or give it to the Alliance.  So, darned if I can find a crime that equals killing 300k Batarians.

Remember that Hackett and Anderson both know the reapers are coming and do nothing to help Shepard, nor do they try and convince anyone that it isn't the geth, but the reapers.  Everyone else thinks Shepard is either delusional or mistaken and the geth sent Sovereign and so on.

"Hackett and Anderson do nothing to help Shepard?"
Politics is alot more complicated then that. There's miles of red-tape and multi-species rules and regulations to cut through on a daily basis. In fact, they're likely the reason the Normandy - flying Cerberus colors and insignias - isn't shot down on sight every time it docks with the Citadel.
Anderson tells you when you first meet him "Don't worry about the Alliance or the Council. I'll find some way to keep them off yoru back."
Anderson is likely the reason that Shepard isn't shot on sight for being... HELL, there's a WHOLE LIST of things Shepard could have been gotten on, after being stripped of Spectre immunity for the sake of fairness in the tribunal hearing:

Source: www.fanfiction.net/s/6985394/1/  (with a few edits of mine here)

Massive xenocide – Destruction of Batarian colony

Destruction of Infrastructure / Historic Artifact – Destruction of relay

Noncompliance with Alliance Regulations on Dangerous Xenobiology – Rachni

Noncompliance with Alliance Regulations on Nuclear Devices - Virmire

Noncompliance with Alliance Regulations on Artificial Intellegences – 'EDI'

Destruction of Undocumented Xenobiology (Sentient) – Thorian

Collusion with enemy – Cerberus

Collusion with enemy – Geth

Harboring known criminal – Kasumi Goto

Harboring known criminal – Subject Zero, aka 'Jack'

Harboring known criminal – Thane Krios

Nurmerous counts of breaking and entering / theft

Burgularly – Donovan Hock's estate

Nurmerous counts of murder (combat situations: Alliance Base at Alpha Relay - Bahak Sysrtem, Omega, Tuchanka, Korlus, Illium, Citadel, Pragia, Sanctum, 2175 Aeia - Hugo Gersback crash, Bekenstien, Zorya, Joab, Watson, Helyme, Lorek, Noveria, Mavigon, Klensal, Xawin, Sharjila, ect)

Unliscenced salvage operations – Derelict 'Reaper,' Collector Ship, nurmerous derilect vessals. (Hunt for Saren)

Ecological Devastation / Unlicensed orbital mining operations

Tax Evasion – 'Dead for two years'

Posing as Citadel health inspector (possible during Thane's mission)

Harvesting of endangered species – Krogan ('Grunt')

Tampering with ongoing military reprisals – 'Genophage cure'

Nurmerous counts of cruelty to animals (Verran, Pyjak, Klixen)

Disturbing the peace – weapons fired on Citadel grounds

False advertisement / Conflicting store sponsorships

Keeping Shepard from being caught on just one of these, let along ALL of them, is taxing. You should be kissing Anderson and Hackett's shoes for stalling as long as they do!

And if they could keep the Alliance AND the Council off Shepard's back for ALL THIS, then they could stall for another month or so.
So AGAIN, NO. Shepard steeing up the groundwork to broker peace with the geth is not impossible. Given that he can storm the Collector Base in ONE DAY. This would be a cakewalk compaired to the other things Shepard would have done at that point.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 janvier 2013 - 01:00 .

[knightnblu]

Dhoozy77 wrote...

It not like they could fight back being such on said glass canon. Once the heavy fleet was gone there were no reason to kill the children and hunt down every last quarian survivor.  It was hypocritcal of the geth to say " we regret the death of the creators" when clearly they could have spared some. 

Yeah, and the last time that they did that resulted in the need to kill them all now. Vicious cycles anyone?

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The quarians aren't the main focus. They are a secondary race. We knwo from the codex on Reaper Destroyers that the Destroyers are qoute "the remains of the races not harvested to be capitol ships."
So they DO harvest all the races. Some are considered more valuble then others. So they would have gotten to the quarians eventually. Also, with those upgrades, the geth should have rolled over the quarians completely by the time Shepard was called in. I think the Reapers were trapping the quarians there, until they could be harvested.
And the quarians get destroyed by the geth, not the Reapers. The geth themselves make that choice. Counter-strike six.

Damn... you know, I never looked at it that way, but it really does make perfect sense. The Reaper-controlled Geth are just as capable of destroying the Quarians as the post-upload Geth, but the Reaper-controlled Geth don't destroy them. In fact, the map description of the Migrant Fleet says something to the effect that  "it is a testament to Quarian tactical prowess that so few losses have been absorbed."

The Reaper-controlled Geth blockade the Mass Relay to prevent the Quarians from escaping (the whole point of Koris' mission is to keep the Civilian Fleet from rushing this blockade in a panicked, and ultimately failed, attempt to escape the fight). It makes sense that they're "corraling" them in-system to be harvested once bigger prizes (Asari, Turian, Human - the species with billions to their names instead of millions) have been finished off.

Incidentally, this is exactly why the Quarians had to attack when they did. They waited until the Reapers hit, then they could wait no longer - Legion severed contact with no progress made, and from that point forward, if the Reapers caught the Quarians in space, they'd be dead. The Reapers would employ the same tactic they have their Geth thralls use. Block relay access, and all you can do is fight (and get stomped) or flee out-system until you're out of fuel and wait around to either starve or get picked off.

By the way, I don't know if it's been brought up... but how did a Reaper Destroyer manage to end up on Rannoch without the Geth knowing about it?

Perhaps they DID know. That WAS a geth blast shield covering it at the Rannoch base. They could have willingly let it in, after they made their deal with the devils, in order to counter the quarian offensive.

Either that, or the Old Machines extended their offer prior to the Quarian offensive, and the Geth didn't take them up on it until their backs were against the wall. There's no way that destroyer showed up and flew down to Rannoch undetected after the Quarians were already in-system.

The Destroyer was probably hidden there before the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. As with Sovereign before it, the Geth deliberated on whether or not to take the Destroyer up on its offer - and ultimately accepted. The Reapers could have taken advantage of this in the manner you noted - wait until the Quarians were all in the system, THEN augment the Geth and let them corral the Quarians until the Reapers got around to harvesting them.

In other words, the Reapers set up an embassy of sorts, and the geth only accepted the offer, (or were still debating on accepting or rejecting) when the quairans steamrolled through to Rannoch?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:54 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

The Destroyer was probably hidden there before the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. As with Sovereign before it, the Geth deliberated on whether or not to take the Destroyer up on its offer - and ultimately accepted. The Reapers could have taken advantage of this in the manner you noted - wait until the Quarians were all in the system, THEN augment the Geth and let them corral the Quarians until the Reapers got around to harvesting them.

Eh, I doubt that was the writers intent. More then likely the "timeline" was left out of our personal interaction(considering we were technically gone from earth for what? 6 months or something?).

It is entirely possible we're overthinking this...

That said, I'd rather analyze and maneuver within a more intelligent and nuanced plot than simply accept what's shovel-fed into me. Same reason I'll never do a pure-paragon playthrough: I refuse to let the game think for me.

[DeinonSlayer]

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The quarians aren't the main focus. They are a secondary race. We knwo from the codex on Reaper Destroyers that the Destroyers are qoute "the remains of the races not harvested to be capitol ships."
So they DO harvest all the races. Some are considered more valuble then others. So they would have gotten to the quarians eventually. Also, with those upgrades, the geth should have rolled over the quarians completely by the time Shepard was called in. I think the Reapers were trapping the quarians there, until they could be harvested.
And the quarians get destroyed by the geth, not the Reapers. The geth themselves make that choice. Counter-strike six.

Damn... you know, I never looked at it that way, but it really does make perfect sense. The Reaper-controlled Geth are just as capable of destroying the Quarians as the post-upload Geth, but the Reaper-controlled Geth don't destroy them. In fact, the map description of the Migrant Fleet says something to the effect that  "it is a testament to Quarian tactical prowess that so few losses have been absorbed."

The Reaper-controlled Geth blockade the Mass Relay to prevent the Quarians from escaping (the whole point of Koris' mission is to keep the Civilian Fleet from rushing this blockade in a panicked, and ultimately failed, attempt to escape the fight). It makes sense that they're "corraling" them in-system to be harvested once bigger prizes (Asari, Turian, Human - the species with billions to their names instead of millions) have been finished off.

Incidentally, this is exactly why the Quarians had to attack when they did. They waited until the Reapers hit, then they could wait no longer - Legion severed contact with no progress made, and from that point forward, if the Reapers caught the Quarians in space, they'd be dead. The Reapers would employ the same tactic they have their Geth thralls use. Block relay access, and all you can do is fight (and get stomped) or flee out-system until you're out of fuel and wait around to either starve or get picked off.

By the way, I don't know if it's been brought up... but how did a Reaper Destroyer manage to end up on Rannoch without the Geth knowing about it?

Perhaps they DID know. That WAS a geth blast shield covering it at the Rannoch base. They could have willingly let it in, after they made their deal with the devils, in order to counter the quarian offensive.

Either that, or the Old Machines extended their offer prior to the Quarian offensive, and the Geth didn't take them up on it until their backs were against the wall. There's no way that destroyer showed up and flew down to Rannoch undetected after the Quarians were already in-system.

The Destroyer was probably hidden there before the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. As with Sovereign before it, the Geth deliberated on whether or not to take the Destroyer up on its offer - and ultimately accepted. The Reapers could have taken advantage of this in the manner you noted - wait until the Quarians were all in the system, THEN augment the Geth and let them corral the Quarians until the Reapers got around to harvesting them.

In other words, the Reapers set up an embassy of sorts, and the geth only accepted the offer, (or were still debating on accepting or rejecting) when the quairans steamrolled through to Rannoch?

Exactly. The Reapers didn't give the code to the Geth until they had the Quarians where they wanted them - on the near side of the Tikkun Relay, ready to be penned and held in place until harvesting could commence.

The Quarians deliberated whether to go to war with the Geth until the Reapers' arrival forced their hand. The Geth, in turn, deliberated whether to side with the Reapers (like the Heretics) until the Quarian invasion forced their hand.

[Meltemph]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

The Destroyer was probably hidden there before the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. As with Sovereign before it, the Geth deliberated on whether or not to take the Destroyer up on its offer - and ultimately accepted. The Reapers could have taken advantage of this in the manner you noted - wait until the Quarians were all in the system, THEN augment the Geth and let them corral the Quarians until the Reapers got around to harvesting them.

Eh, I doubt that was the writers intent. More then likely the "timeline" was left out of our personal interaction(considering we were technically gone from earth for what? 6 months or something?).

It is entirely possible we're overthinking this...

That said, I'd rather analyze and maneuver within a more intelligent and nuanced plot than simply accept what's shovel-fed into me. Same reason I'll never do a pure-paragon playthrough: I refuse to let the game think for me.

Eh, I guess.  However, viewing fiction in a vaccum normally leads to argumentum ad infinitum or getting lost in the forest.

[xAmilli0n]

Why did the Geth kill all the Quarians after the upgrade?

BECAUSE THEY ARE EVIL SYNTHETICS WHOSE ONLY GOAL IS TO DESTORY ORGANICS AND THUS SHOULD BE PUT DOWN AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!

*cough*

Oh, did I just say that out loud?  I should go...

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

The Destroyer was probably hidden there before the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. As with Sovereign before it, the Geth deliberated on whether or not to take the Destroyer up on its offer - and ultimately accepted. The Reapers could have taken advantage of this in the manner you noted - wait until the Quarians were all in the system, THEN augment the Geth and let them corral the Quarians until the Reapers got around to harvesting them.

Eh, I doubt that was the writers intent. More then likely the "timeline" was left out of our personal interaction(considering we were technically gone from earth for what? 6 months or something?).

It is entirely possible we're overthinking this...

That said, I'd rather analyze and maneuver within a more intelligent and nuanced plot than simply accept what's shovel-fed into me. Same reason I'll never do a pure-paragon playthrough: I refuse to let the game think for me.

Eh, I guess.  However, viewing fiction in a vaccum normally leads to argumentum ad infinitum or getting lost in the forest.

We are on page 10... I've seen them get much, much longer than this.

Speculations from everyone, and all that jazz.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

The Destroyer was probably hidden there before the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. As with Sovereign before it, the Geth deliberated on whether or not to take the Destroyer up on its offer - and ultimately accepted. The Reapers could have taken advantage of this in the manner you noted - wait until the Quarians were all in the system, THEN augment the Geth and let them corral the Quarians until the Reapers got around to harvesting them.

Eh, I doubt that was the writers intent. More then likely the "timeline" was left out of our personal interaction(considering we were technically gone from earth for what? 6 months or something?).

It is entirely possible we're overthinking this...

That said, I'd rather analyze and maneuver within a more intelligent and nuanced plot than simply accept what's shovel-fed into me. Same reason I'll never do a pure-paragon playthrough: I refuse to let the game think for me.

I know. That was probablay my top gripe with the game: the gray area was left out in conversations. You were either black or white. It didn't really reward you for trying to find the middle path. If anything, it seemed to penelize you for it.
Like the Geth hub. Those recordings Legion shows you shouldn't be compeling evidence to make the entire war the fault of the quarians. It pisses me off that, based on the auto-doilouge between Shepard and Raan, those recordings are supposed to be genuine and accurate because the deves wrote it that way. It kills the player interpertation element that helps you feel immersed by forming your own opinions on things.
They should have at least given an element where you could actually enter a 3D environment of the point in their history, like a holodeck from Star Trek, where you could investigate everything and see the whole picture of the War - not just a censored image of a geth strapped to a chair, among other things.  At least then we would have more context to the viewpoints the devs are trying to showcase, and decide for ourselves if we agree, insetad of being completely forced to just take everything on word of mouth.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The quarians aren't the main focus. They are a secondary race. We knwo from the codex on Reaper Destroyers that the Destroyers are qoute "the remains of the races not harvested to be capitol ships."
So they DO harvest all the races. Some are considered more valuble then others. So they would have gotten to the quarians eventually. Also, with those upgrades, the geth should have rolled over the quarians completely by the time Shepard was called in. I think the Reapers were trapping the quarians there, until they could be harvested.
And the quarians get destroyed by the geth, not the Reapers. The geth themselves make that choice. Counter-strike six.

Damn... you know, I never looked at it that way, but it really does make perfect sense. The Reaper-controlled Geth are just as capable of destroying the Quarians as the post-upload Geth, but the Reaper-controlled Geth don't destroy them. In fact, the map description of the Migrant Fleet says something to the effect that  "it is a testament to Quarian tactical prowess that so few losses have been absorbed."

The Reaper-controlled Geth blockade the Mass Relay to prevent the Quarians from escaping (the whole point of Koris' mission is to keep the Civilian Fleet from rushing this blockade in a panicked, and ultimately failed, attempt to escape the fight). It makes sense that they're "corraling" them in-system to be harvested once bigger prizes (Asari, Turian, Human - the species with billions to their names instead of millions) have been finished off.

Incidentally, this is exactly why the Quarians had to attack when they did. They waited until the Reapers hit, then they could wait no longer - Legion severed contact with no progress made, and from that point forward, if the Reapers caught the Quarians in space, they'd be dead. The Reapers would employ the same tactic they have their Geth thralls use. Block relay access, and all you can do is fight (and get stomped) or flee out-system until you're out of fuel and wait around to either starve or get picked off.

By the way, I don't know if it's been brought up... but how did a Reaper Destroyer manage to end up on Rannoch without the Geth knowing about it?

Perhaps they DID know. That WAS a geth blast shield covering it at the Rannoch base. They could have willingly let it in, after they made their deal with the devils, in order to counter the quarian offensive.

Either that, or the Old Machines extended their offer prior to the Quarian offensive, and the Geth didn't take them up on it until their backs were against the wall. There's no way that destroyer showed up and flew down to Rannoch undetected after the Quarians were already in-system.

The Destroyer was probably hidden there before the Quarians attacked the Dyson Sphere. As with Sovereign before it, the Geth deliberated on whether or not to take the Destroyer up on its offer - and ultimately accepted. The Reapers could have taken advantage of this in the manner you noted - wait until the Quarians were all in the system, THEN augment the Geth and let them corral the Quarians until the Reapers got around to harvesting them.

In other words, the Reapers set up an embassy of sorts, and the geth only accepted the offer, (or were still debating on accepting or rejecting) when the quairans steamrolled through to Rannoch?

Exactly. The Reapers didn't give the code to the Geth until they had the Quarians where they wanted them - on the near side of the Tikkun Relay, ready to be penned and held in place until harvesting could commence.

The Quarians deliberated whether to go to war with the Geth until the Reapers' arrival forced their hand. The Geth, in turn, deliberated whether to side with the Reapers (like the Heretics) until the Quarian invasion forced their hand.

A perfect catch 22. Nother side could afford to NOT take the action they did. I only wish the quarian's motivations were as defined as the geth.
I didn't like feeling as though the whole point of the war arc was to try  to hammer me over the head with a  "quarians are dicks. Sympathise with the geth, or your a dick too" mentality. THAT'S what I didn't like about it. It's not that I hate the geth. Hell, I usually am a geth SYMPATHISER, and even I can see that this arc was too one-sided in the 'moral debate' department.
It's that they are never seen owning up to their mistakes. It's always someone elses fault.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 janvier 2013 - 01:13 .

[DeinonSlayer]

silverexile17s wrote...

A perfect catch 22. Nother side could afford to NOT take the action they did. I only wish the quarian's motivations were as defined as the geth.
I didn't like feeling as though the whole point of the war arc was to try  to hammer me over the head with a  "quarians are dicks. Sympathise with the geth, or your a dick too" mentality. THAT'S what I didn't like about it. It's not that I hate the geth. Hell, I usually am a geth SYMPATHISER, and even I can see that this arc was too one-sided in the 'moral debate' department.
It's that they are never seen owning up to their mistakes. It's always someone elses fault.

And the thing is, as we've established, all of the pieces are there. They could have vocalized this. Easily. But they wanted people to sympathize with the Geth, so they took the blunt (...the first word which actually came to mind was "cowardly") strategy of only presenting one side's perspective and effectively burying the other. It's all there in the lore, only no dialogue is committed to it. The word "billions" doesn't appear once after ME1. There's no mention of the Geth's centuries of hostile isolation in ME3, or how that affected the galaxy's perception of them. We can call out Raan for violating a treaty that doesn't apply to them, but we can't question the ramifications of the Geth building a dyson bubble around Rannoch's sun. We can question Xen's sanity, but we can't question Legion about the authenticity of the footage in the Geth Consensus (Joker even hypothesizes that Shepard is still in the consensus).

Anyone who hasn't played ME1 (and seen the one elevator conversation where casualties are mentioned), read the books, or dug through the codex will be completely ignorant of these things, and it taints the decision-making process.

Tuchanka struck a far better balance.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 janvier 2013 - 01:46 .

[Meltemph]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

A perfect catch 22. Nother side could afford to NOT take the action they did. I only wish the quarian's motivations were as defined as the geth.
I didn't like feeling as though the whole point of the war arc was to try  to hammer me over the head with a  "quarians are dicks. Sympathise with the geth, or your a dick too" mentality. THAT'S what I didn't like about it. It's not that I hate the geth. Hell, I usually am a geth SYMPATHISER, and even I can see that this arc was too one-sided in the 'moral debate' department.
It's that they are never seen owning up to their mistakes. It's always someone elses fault.

And the thing is, as we've established, all of the pieces are there. They could have vocalized this. Easily. But they wanted people to sympathize with the Geth, so they took the blunt (...the first word which actually came to mind was "cowardly") strategy of only presenting one side's perspective and effectively burying the other. It's all there in the lore, only no dialogue is committed to it. The word "billions" doesn't appear once after ME1. There's no mention of the Geth's centuries of hostile isolation in ME3, or how that affected the galaxy's perception of them. We can call out Raan for violating a treaty that doesn't apply to them, but we can't question the ramifications of the Geth building a dyson bubble around Rannoch's sun. We can question Xen's sanity, but we can't question Legion about the authenticity of the footage in the Geth Consensus (Joker even hypothesizes that Shepard is still in the consensus).

Anyone who hasn't played ME1 (and seen the one elevator conversation where casualties are mentioned), read the books, or dug through the codex will be completely ignorant of these things, and it taints the decision-making process.

Tuchanka struck a far better balance.

I think what you are witnessing is them running away from teh blunt object that was "tech singularity"(which was essetnially mentioned right before talking about the geth in revelation), and tried to go the way of Asimov.  What they seemed to have missed though, was that Asimov didnt hold up his robots as "angels" or demons.  ME2 and 3 just showed them as misunderstood, and kept portraying the Quarians as extremely agressive in tactics and ect(without showing anying to the contrary in terms of actions made).

They tried to run away from the portrayal of the excessivly simplistic view(and overly portayed in hollywood) of the "tech singualirty leads to robots with the desire to kill all" and tried to run to the Asimov school of thought, but they ended up doing neither that well.

[Iamjdr]

@silverexile17s
Thank you that's really the best way to put what I was trying to say. The game tries to force you to feel like the quarians are the bad guys and the Geth are super innocent victims and it actually ended up having quite the opposite affect on me.

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

A perfect catch 22. Nother side could afford to NOT take the action they did. I only wish the quarian's motivations were as defined as the geth.
I didn't like feeling as though the whole point of the war arc was to try  to hammer me over the head with a  "quarians are dicks. Sympathise with the geth, or your a dick too" mentality. THAT'S what I didn't like about it. It's not that I hate the geth. Hell, I usually am a geth SYMPATHISER, and even I can see that this arc was too one-sided in the 'moral debate' department.
It's that they are never seen owning up to their mistakes. It's always someone elses fault.

And the thing is, as we've established, all of the pieces are there. They could have vocalized this. Easily. But they wanted people to sympathize with the Geth, so they took the blunt (...the first word which actually came to mind was "cowardly") strategy of only presenting one side's perspective and effectively burying the other. It's all there in the lore, only no dialogue is committed to it. The word "billions" doesn't appear once after ME1. There's no mention of the Geth's centuries of hostile isolation in ME3, or how that affected the galaxy's perception of them. We can call out Raan for violating a treaty that doesn't apply to them, but we can't question the ramifications of the Geth building a dyson bubble around Rannoch's sun. We can question Xen's sanity, but we can't question Legion about the authenticity of the footage in the Geth Consensus (Joker even hypothesizes that Shepard is still in the consensus).

Anyone who hasn't played ME1 (and seen the one elevator conversation where casualties are mentioned), read the books, or dug through the codex will be completely ignorant of these things, and it taints the decision-making process.

Tuchanka struck a far better balance.

I think what you are witnessing is them running away from teh blunt object that was "tech singularity"(which was essetnially mentioned right before talking about the geth in revelation), and tried to go the way of Asimov.  What they seemed to have missed though, was that Asimov didnt hold up his robots as "angels" or demons.  ME2 and 3 just showed them as misunderstood, and kept portraying the Quarians as extremely agressive in tactics and ect(without showing anying to the contrary in terms of actions made).

They tried to run away from the portrayal of the excessivly simplistic view(and overly portayed in hollywood) of the "tech singualirty leads to robots with the desire to kill all" and tried to run to the Asimov school of thought, but they ended up doing neither that well.

Same reason I hated Cerberus' progression from "Mad scientists on backwater planets" to "Machiavellian pro-Human organization with 150 operatives" to "Sith Empire 2.0," and shake my head at the abrupt changeover to thermal clips. I actually thought ME2's Cerberus was the most intriguing of the three, but still... if you're gonna establish something in the lore, at least try to stick to it.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 janvier 2013 - 02:02 .

[Meltemph]

Ya, it is the main reason I put a large amount of blame at Walters feet. Not because I KNOW who made the decisions, but because the larger the roll he got, the more issues that cropped up with the game. The biggest issues with ME2 and 3 were the main story setting pieces. Everything not revolving around the reaper plot as really well done, to me.

Unfortunately the Geth got caught in the reaper plot, almost exclusively, so they took the biggest hit in terms of consistency, besides Cerberus. Honestly, I find it very hard not to blame a specific person with ME2 and 3 for the main gripes in both games, and I normally dont like doing that, at all.

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

Ya, it is the main reason I put a large amount of blame at Walters feet. Not because I KNOW who made the decisions, but because the larger the roll he got, the more issues that cropped up with the game. The biggest issues with ME2 and 3 were the main story setting pieces. Everything not revolving around the reaper plot as really well done, to me.

Unfortunately the Geth got caught in the reaper plot, almost exclusively, so they took the biggest hit in terms of consistency, besides Cerberus. Honestly, I find it very hard not to blame a specific person with ME2 and 3 for the main gripes in both games, and I normally dont like doing that, at all.

Autodialogue is a big part of the problem. For example, in ME2, you could respond in four different ways to Legion's attempt to contact the larger collective (the conversation where he retrieves the audio recording). In ME3, autodialogue tells you what to think and feel in many circumstances. The worst example of this, IMO, is Shepard apologizing to Tevos after Thessia. After learning the Asari hid that beacon, I wanted to chew her out.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

A perfect catch 22. Nother side could afford to NOT take the action they did. I only wish the quarian's motivations were as defined as the geth.
I didn't like feeling as though the whole point of the war arc was to try  to hammer me over the head with a  "quarians are dicks. Sympathise with the geth, or your a dick too" mentality. THAT'S what I didn't like about it. It's not that I hate the geth. Hell, I usually am a geth SYMPATHISER, and even I can see that this arc was too one-sided in the 'moral debate' department.
It's that they are never seen owning up to their mistakes. It's always someone elses fault.

And the thing is, as we've established, all of the pieces are there. They could have vocalized this. Easily. But they wanted people to sympathize with the Geth, so they took the blunt (...the first word which actually came to mind was "cowardly") strategy of only presenting one side's perspective and effectively burying the other. It's all there in the lore, only no dialogue is committed to it. The word "billions" doesn't appear once after ME1. There's no mention of the Geth's centuries of hostile isolation in ME3, or how that affected the galaxy's perception of them. We can call out Raan for violating a treaty that doesn't apply to them, but we can't question the ramifications of the Geth building a dyson bubble around Rannoch's sun. We can question Xen's sanity, but we can't question Legion about the authenticity of the footage in the Geth Consensus (Joker even hypothesizes that Shepard is still in the consensus).

Anyone who hasn't played ME1 (and seen the one elevator conversation where casualties are mentioned), read the books, or dug through the codex will be completely ignorant of these things, and it taints the decision-making process.

Tuchanka struck a far better balance.

Don't forget the ramafacations of the geth having as many dreadnoughts as the turians, and that each one is larger and more powerful than the Council regulations normally allow.  That Geth  Dreadnought was a monster. To think the geth have nearly 30 of them.
And you NEVER bring that massive military power the geth have into question. Not ONCE in the game. You can berate the quarians for converting liveships, but never get anything to say regarding the ramafacations of how the geth can nearly rival the turians in military strength.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 janvier 2013 - 02:19 .

[Meltemph]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Ya, it is the main reason I put a large amount of blame at Walters feet. Not because I KNOW who made the decisions, but because the larger the roll he got, the more issues that cropped up with the game. The biggest issues with ME2 and 3 were the main story setting pieces. Everything not revolving around the reaper plot as really well done, to me.

Unfortunately the Geth got caught in the reaper plot, almost exclusively, so they took the biggest hit in terms of consistency, besides Cerberus. Honestly, I find it very hard not to blame a specific person with ME2 and 3 for the main gripes in both games, and I normally dont like doing that, at all.

Autodialogue is a big part of the problem. For example, in ME2, you could respond in four different ways to Legion's attempt to contact the larger collective (the conversation where he retrieves the audio recording). In ME3, autodialogue tells you what to think and feel in many circumstances. The worst example of this, IMO, is Shepard apologizing to Tevos after Thessia. After learning the Asari hid that beacon, I wanted to chew her out.

Autodialog to me, is a symptom, not a cause.  The game(ME1-3) has tons of autodialog, but the way they did it came from you pikcing an idea of a tone or direction in terms of where the conversation was going.  With ME3, to me, due to the lack of consistency of the plot along 3 games, they felt the need to "tell you" what the writers were intending.

Either that or IT is real and autodialog is proof /sarcasm.  

[DeinonSlayer]

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

A perfect catch 22. Nother side could afford to NOT take the action they did. I only wish the quarian's motivations were as defined as the geth.
I didn't like feeling as though the whole point of the war arc was to try  to hammer me over the head with a  "quarians are dicks. Sympathise with the geth, or your a dick too" mentality. THAT'S what I didn't like about it. It's not that I hate the geth. Hell, I usually am a geth SYMPATHISER, and even I can see that this arc was too one-sided in the 'moral debate' department.
It's that they are never seen owning up to their mistakes. It's always someone elses fault.

And the thing is, as we've established, all of the pieces are there. They could have vocalized this. Easily. But they wanted people to sympathize with the Geth, so they took the blunt (...the first word which actually came to mind was "cowardly") strategy of only presenting one side's perspective and effectively burying the other. It's all there in the lore, only no dialogue is committed to it. The word "billions" doesn't appear once after ME1. There's no mention of the Geth's centuries of hostile isolation in ME3, or how that affected the galaxy's perception of them. We can call out Raan for violating a treaty that doesn't apply to them, but we can't question the ramifications of the Geth building a dyson bubble around Rannoch's sun. We can question Xen's sanity, but we can't question Legion about the authenticity of the footage in the Geth Consensus (Joker even hypothesizes that Shepard is still in the consensus).

Anyone who hasn't played ME1 (and seen the one elevator conversation where casualties are mentioned), read the books, or dug through the codex will be completely ignorant of these things, and it taints the decision-making process.

Tuchanka struck a far better balance.

Don't forget the ramafacations of the geth having as many dreadnoughts as the turians, and that each one is larger and more powerful than the Council regulations normally allow.  That Geth  Dreadnought was a monster. To think the geth have nearly 30 of them.
And you NEVER bring that massive military power the geth have into question. Not ONCE in the game. You can berate the quarians for converting liveships, but never get anything to say regarding the ramafacations of how the geth can nearly rival the turians in military strength.

Well, in fairness, Farixen doesn't apply to the Geth. They were never signatories. Thing is, ever since the Council stripped them of their embassy and kicked them to the curb (after they got burned for trying to comply with Council law on artificial intelligence by destroying the Geth), the Quarians aren't subject to Farixen's restrictions either.

And is this really the time for Shepard to complain about a species taking the initiative to slap some big-ass guns on their ships? I'm glad the dialogue option supporting the armament is there - the alternative is just plain derpy.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 janvier 2013 - 02:23 .

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Ya, it is the main reason I put a large amount of blame at Walters feet. Not because I KNOW who made the decisions, but because the larger the roll he got, the more issues that cropped up with the game. The biggest issues with ME2 and 3 were the main story setting pieces. Everything not revolving around the reaper plot as really well done, to me.

Unfortunately the Geth got caught in the reaper plot, almost exclusively, so they took the biggest hit in terms of consistency, besides Cerberus. Honestly, I find it very hard not to blame a specific person with ME2 and 3 for the main gripes in both games, and I normally dont like doing that, at all.

Autodialogue is a big part of the problem. For example, in ME2, you could respond in four different ways to Legion's attempt to contact the larger collective (the conversation where he retrieves the audio recording). In ME3, autodialogue tells you what to think and feel in many circumstances. The worst example of this, IMO, is Shepard apologizing to Tevos after Thessia. After learning the Asari hid that beacon, I wanted to chew her out.

He certinly chewed out the asari in front of poor, shell-shocked Liara - The LAST person who needed to be raved at about her people screwing up when, you know, HER HOMEWORLD IS BURNING AROUND HER, AND HER PEOPLE ARE DYING IN DROVES. (It's even worse if you bring the extremely blunt prothean Javik with her.)
I half-expected to be able to yell at Tevos (or whoever is Councilor at the time) about what the HELL the asari were thinking when they hid the beacon. Shepard could have proven the Reapers existance right then and there had they not kept it so secret. Hell, if they had allowed others to look at it, they could have found  Vendetta and learned about the Reapers LONG before they ever invaded.
But instead of confronting Tevos, you rant to poor Liara?

This is one of the things I hated about autodiolouge. I would have had like three to six different ways to go with in responce to that in ME1. Instead, now it's (a) or (.  And even worse, is that trying to find a gray path seems to penalize the player. You are either a Renagade or a Paragon fully, in order to get the best rewards. You get less if you try to play both fields. And with how Renagade choices are structured, it makes you feel like the right choice is always going to bo the Paragon option. As though you either are a Paragon, or you aren't. And that if it's Paragon, it's the "right" choice. There's little to no gray, when, in a time of war, having there be an overwhelming amount of gray would have made perfect sense.

[silverexile17s]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

A perfect catch 22. Nother side could afford to NOT take the action they did. I only wish the quarian's motivations were as defined as the geth.
I didn't like feeling as though the whole point of the war arc was to try  to hammer me over the head with a  "quarians are dicks. Sympathise with the geth, or your a dick too" mentality. THAT'S what I didn't like about it. It's not that I hate the geth. Hell, I usually am a geth SYMPATHISER, and even I can see that this arc was too one-sided in the 'moral debate' department.
It's that they are never seen owning up to their mistakes. It's always someone elses fault.

And the thing is, as we've established, all of the pieces are there. They could have vocalized this. Easily. But they wanted people to sympathize with the Geth, so they took the blunt (...the first word which actually came to mind was "cowardly") strategy of only presenting one side's perspective and effectively burying the other. It's all there in the lore, only no dialogue is committed to it. The word "billions" doesn't appear once after ME1. There's no mention of the Geth's centuries of hostile isolation in ME3, or how that affected the galaxy's perception of them. We can call out Raan for violating a treaty that doesn't apply to them, but we can't question the ramifications of the Geth building a dyson bubble around Rannoch's sun. We can question Xen's sanity, but we can't question Legion about the authenticity of the footage in the Geth Consensus (Joker even hypothesizes that Shepard is still in the consensus).

Anyone who hasn't played ME1 (and seen the one elevator conversation where casualties are mentioned), read the books, or dug through the codex will be completely ignorant of these things, and it taints the decision-making process.

Tuchanka struck a far better balance.

Don't forget the ramafacations of the geth having as many dreadnoughts as the turians, and that each one is larger and more powerful than the Council regulations normally allow.  That Geth  Dreadnought was a monster. To think the geth have nearly 30 of them.
And you NEVER bring that massive military power the geth have into question. Not ONCE in the game. You can berate the quarians for converting liveships, but never get anything to say regarding the ramafacations of how the geth can nearly rival the turians in military strength.

Well, in fairness, Farixen doesn't apply to the Geth. They were never signatories. Thing is, ever since the Council stripped them of their embassy and kicked them to the curb (after they got burned for trying to comply with Council law on artificial intelligence by destroying the Geth), the Quarians aren't subject to Farixen's restrictions either.

And is this really the time for Shepard to complain about a species taking the initiative to slap some big-ass guns on their ships? I'm glad the dialogue option supporting the armament is there - the alternative is just plain derpy.

I know that both sides aren't bound by the Treaty of Farixan, but then if that's true, why does Shepard chew out Raan for the quarians converting liveships, but not Legion for building nearly 30 of the most powerful ships in the galaxy?

Quarians retrofit civilan ships for safety because the galaxy is literally going to hell in a hand-basket: Chew them out.
Geth build dozens of monster warships that can each rival the power of the prothean flagship, but don't use them when it counts: No problem with that!
See the problem with this logic?

Obviously,  one of the devs or writers had favortisim for the geth, That's fine and all, but you NEVER let that leak into the game! The PC has to be an unbiased character, because their reaction is supposed to mirrior the player.
This doesn't seem to do that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 22 janvier 2013 - 02:39 .