[quote]Ender Ghost wrote...
[quote]silverexile17s wrote...
[quote]Ender Ghost wrote...
[quote]silverexile17s wrote...
[quote]DirtySHISN0 wrote...
[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...
They would eventually be used against the Reapers, a ship without a way to defend it self would have been an easy target for the Reapers.
[/quote]
Agreed, but for the moment at hand, it was unnecessary.
[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...
the Geth blocked the relay, preventing escape.
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after the initial attack...could have not taken the civilians with them to begin with.
[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...
So the Quarians should pay for their "mistake", while the Geth get a free pass.
[/quote]
if they continue to make the same mistakes without learning from them, yes.
[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...
and potentially other visiting alien races. in ME2 the Asari Erinya says she lost her bondmate during the initial Geth uprising)
[/quote]
She says she lost her bond mate when the Geth rebelled, then goes on the express how she dislikes all aliens that aren't Asari. This to me suggests the
possibility exists that she could have been a victim of the Quarians.
[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...
Legion withholding information during Rannoch missions.
[/quote]
you prefer gerrel straight up trying to kill you?
[quote]Cyrax86 wrote...
Quarians attack the Geth, Quarians are winning, Geth lose intelligence and run to the Reapers. Geth winning, Reapers no longer have a reason to attack/harvest Quarians(at least not so soon).
No Quarian attack on Geth, Reapers have a reason to get involved, Geth and Quarians fight Reapers, Geth lose intelligence over the course of the fight, they choose submission over extinction and side with Reapers, Quarians get blindsided.
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Quarians extend olive branch and attempt peaceful coexistence...wait! they never try this. (i took legion to Tali's trail in ME2, so the possibility of peace was presented by the Geth already)
Also, no Quarian attack on the Geth. Shepard recruits them (quarians), suggests recruiting Geth. Two communities fight together without needless loss of life in between.
It all Hinges on the Quarians mistakes.
Create Geth - not the mistake.
Fear Geth - mistake.
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1.Again, not when there are Reapers killing everything. Either arm up now, or risk waiting. You never take risks like that with Reapers. (Unless you name is Shepard:P)
2. I talked about this before. The two fleets are symbioticly linked. The civilian ships are the source of raw supplies (meds, fuel, food, repair materials, ect), and the combat sips the source of defense. They can't function without each-other. That's why they always travel together. The alternitive to bringing them would have been to leave them alone, out in space with the Reapers cralwing everywhere.
Which seems less risky?
3. And what of the geth? They stayed in isolation after the Heretcis ravaged the Citadel.
Hell, even after meeting Shepard, the geth stayed in isolation while
both Earth and Palaven
burned. We really could have used their help
then. (And DON'T say the quarians tied them up. ME3 spans several months, and based on when it's avalible, the quarians don't attack either till right after, during, or right before the Cerberus Coup)
Mistake repeated: Isolation.So don't say the geth haven't made mistakes.
4. A vcitim of....?!
The quarians weren't the ones using
chemical weapons against civilians in a crusade to drive everyone away from them in overzelous self-defense. The geth were! It was also a rouge faction of geth that killed her daughters.
Asari being killed while visiting Rannoch is only proof that they were overzelous in their attack. Especally since Rannoch was attacked seperatly, near the end of the year-long Morning War. A
seperate attack. Meaning they didn't
need to attack Rannoch, but still did.
5. It was the flagship of the geth fleet, and it tore through a good 10% of the quarian fleet. It's disabled and vunerable, and if you pull out now, you'll have to face the thing
again. I'd sure as hell be making sure the thing didn't get back up.
It's called a tactical decision. Admiral Hackett says he had no choice but to sacrifice the entire Alliance Second fleet so that the Third and Fifth fleets could escape the destruction of Arcturus Station. Decisions like that happen in war.
6. Again, the geth made mistakes too. They say they were
willing to have peace, but never extend the offer. They never leave the Veil, even
after Legion's talk with Koris on the possibilaty. They stay in isolation even after the Reapers arrive, while Earth and Palaven burn under Reaper fire. You can't blame the quarians for not believeing in peace when the geth never made the offer. What, were the quarians supposed to psycically know that the geth were waiting for them to come in and ask? Yes, the geth can't strive for peace alone, but they
still need to make the
attempt first. You can't say you wan't peace, and yet refuse to extend your hand out to the other. Especally when you did nothing about the rouge faction of yours that ripped the Attican Traverse a new one.
Admit it. Both sides are at a fault for their past actions, which in turn drove each side to take the path they did. Nither one had a choice but to do what they did.
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1. (I'm just jumping in here I really have no idea where you guys were with this point) But the Quarians attacking the Geth when they both had the two biggest fleets in the galaxy was suicidal and put the rest of the galaxy in danger, if they been able to get a truce then maybe not as many war assets would have been wasted, instead the Quarians jumped out there during the middle of a reaper invasion to go kill some nonagressive bystandards.
2. (Again not sure where you guys were going with this but...) In the event that the Quarian fleet was smashed and they made a run for the relay, I'm willing to bet some miltiary ships would be going with the civilian ships aswell.
3. (Bingo) The thing with the heretics is that we're never really told if the rest of the geth go and fight them or not, we know the heretics were spying on the rest of the geth but we really don't know much past that. But why should the Geth go running to save Earth and Palaven, the Reapers weren't fighting them, and honestly, if you were an Admiral in the Alliance would you have said "Oh hey, its some Geth! They must be here to save us!" Or would fire on them as soon as they came within range?
4. A: How do we know they were using chemical weapons on Rannoch? We know they were cleaning the planet from the damage the war did including chemicals, debris, etc. But in a warzone that can happen without the use of chemical weapons, just blowing up a car will result in chemicals getting everywhere, they most likely weren't using 'weaponized' chemicals.
And B: How do we know the Quarians didn't use chemical weapon? We know not all the Quarians wanted the Geth killed, and we know they were killed by the Quarian government (Or whatever group wanted the geth dead), so it is possible they were killed by their own kind.
5. Not really, while it was a Dreadnought that had Legion aboard, it was just that, a dreadnought, the geth had many more. Destroying that Dreadnought, while the galaxy's only hope was onboard was stupid and suicidal.
6. I will admit that the Geth made mistakes aswell, they said they were willing to have peace during the trial, but how many people there do you think even listened (judging from some of the people here not even shepard listened) but you can't exactly blame them for not coming out of the Viel, was I stated in #3, a Geth ship would have been fired on as soon as it came close.
[/quote]
1. No one else in the galaxy KNEW they were non-agressive bystanders. They stayed in isolation even after the Heretics attacked, and therefore,
never told the wider galaxy that the Heretics actions were not supported by them.
The only validity they had was the word of one geth platform - Legion. One platform can't voutch for the thousands that blazed through the Traverse. No other geth came forward with any corralating evidence that the geth were indeed remorsfull for their actions. So, the Heretic problem Legion put forwars was considered as shakey a piece of intel as the Reaper's existance once were. They still dodn't see any proof of otherwise by that time.
As far as the rest of the galaxy was concerned, the geth were Reaper allies. So the quarians figured that being the case, no one would have cared if they attacked them.
2. They couldn't afford to leave anyone behind. Not with the Reapers everywhere. They thought they had a sure-fire way to win, so they figured there was no rsik whatsoever in attacking the geth anymore. So logically, they brought their whole fleet in.
3. The geth did noithing in 300 years to change that image of fear that the galaxy had of them. They could have tried to do something to change public opinion of them. At the very lest, the attempt would have laied out the groundwork to build open diolouges from.
4. Using chemical weapons on a race of synthetics, which aren't adversily affected by toxic materials, is the epitimy of redundant. They wouldn't use toxins on a race that clearly wasn't affected by them. In fact, since the geth were laborors originally, they would likely have been spicifically made to
be resistant to toxic chemicals, so that quarians wouldn't need to handle them. The only ones seceptible to toxic weapons in that conflict were organics. Quarians even more so, as they have weak immune systems that can't handle negitive bacteria or toxins, and couldn't handle even minor exposure to such hazardous materials.
Therefore, any chemical weapons used, could only have been used by the geth.
5. It was the only dreadnought over Rannoch, I remind you. Any others weren't in range of the system at that time. And it was either shoot the thing now, or wait for it to come back and tear through
another 10% of your fleet.
A ship that powerful? You shoot it when it's down. Just like the Alliance did when Sovergien went down, disregarding how close it was to the Citidel Tower that
also contained Shepard at the time.
So NO, it's not stupid and suicidal. It's called a tactical decision. People have to make them in war.
6. They didn't exactally breed trust when they shot down all the unarmed diplomatic ships that came to the Veil. They could have allowed them through to talk.
And later on, they could at least try to send a broadcast. We know they can acess FTL Comm Bouys. They could ask first to meet outside the Veil.
They stayed isolated after the Heretics.
They stayed isolated after Legion helped stop the Collectors.
They made that choice to be isolated. They had a hand in this mess as much as the quarians.
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1. True, the Geth never really left the Viel, Legion did tell the galaxy about the heretics and the geth wanting peace, but Legion was acting a an ambassador of sorts, how does his word not vouche for the rest of the Geth when they were in concesnsus?
2. Bringing their whole fleet in was an act of desperation. The fact that the Quarians would rather risk innocent civilians in a suicidal attack rather than send an envoy to the Geth just shows how ignorant they were.
3. But they did, Legion was sent out, and he spoke with the Quarians and again, they didn't listen to him.
4. Thats not what I meant, anti-geth quarians using chemical weapons on pro-geth quarians. And who is to say that the quarians didn't try and use them on the Geth, and 300 years later, when the geth have been fighting exclusively organics, why do they never use chemical weapons?
5. Source? As I recall it was just being used to broadcast legion's signal, it wasn't the only geth dreadnought in the system. Besides, that was still as stupid as before, risking half your fleet, the commander (and his squad) of an alliance Spec-ops team AND a unique geth platform (which if you got a hold of, you could hack and used to control the rest of the geth). You'd be shooting away almost every advantage you had in the war just to gain a single ship kill. That my friend, is called a Pyrrhic Victory.
6. This is a good point, since it was before the trial they still probably anticipated it was a trap of some kind, but over all if they hadn't remained isolated they would have been treated more as invaders than foreign diplomates.
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1. Because the only voucher of Legion's word being authentic is Shepard's. Which, given the Alpha Relay incident and the Cerberus Ties, wouldn't exactally be compelling evidence, especally after the order to put the Commander before an Alliance Tribunal. Given all that, the word of Shepard's allies wouldn't be that compelling either, as they willingly worked with Cerberus. Not even all the non-human crewmembers would be taken as evedence. And anyway, it doesn't have relation to the Arrival plot. Hard to take the word of someone that blew a Mass Relay up, killing 300,000 batarians, which would demand war if you just dismiss the case against him. So nothing the Commander said could be taken on word during that time. Especally regarding a peaceful geth, after the Heretics killing spree.
Besides, everyone on the Citadel regards Legion as a battle trophy reprogramed to be a servent-bot. Not even the Salarian Councilor can tell that Legion is an authentic Geth. (don't visit Anderson anf the Council till after the Derilict Reaper, then bring Legion to get this doilouge. Or just youtube "Legion meets the Council" if you don't want to go through the hassle)
2. Again, it was either that, or leave the ships behind unarmed, with Reapers everywhere. I'd be putting guns on anything that I could, regardless of if I'm activelly fighting or not. Levaing them like that was signing their death warrent.
And again, the fleet is symbiotoiclly dependant on each-other. The combat ships are reliant on the raw supplies (food, fuel, meds, repair supplies, ect) that the civilian ships have. They cannot be seperated from each-other. They either bring all the ships, or they don't do anything, as the combat ships cannon sustain a drawn-out battle without the civilian ships supporting and re-supplying them constantly. They aren't the turians or geth. They aren't self-sufficant warships. They're salvaged tugs that need constant matinence. They weren't ignorant. The exact opposate - they were attacking what was, as of then, considered to be a known galactic enemy, and taking their homeworld back, so their civilians could be sheltered while they went to help other races. Two birds, one stone.
Besides, every envoy that went into geth space was killed. Why should anyone thing any different?
3. Actually, according to Tali, Legion was the one that cut contact after returning to the Veil. As listed above by both @DenionSlayer and @Calinstel, that Reaper Destroyer was present on Rannoch well before the quarian attack. It couldn't have gotten past the Migrant Fleet otherwise, without being noticed. The Reapers were offering the geth sanctity in the war, and the geth pulled back the option of peace with the quarians to consider it. Hence why they never sent any deligation out to the quarians. They were obviously tempted, as they let the thing land on Rannoch. Legion says that they would not have accepted, but the fact remains, they still considered it as an option, even when it wasn't a nessessity.
4. With considered-to-be-homicidal geth on the loose, the last thing anyone would do is unleash possibly uncontrolable chem warfare on themselves. Because there's a possibilaty that it will affect friendlies as well.
So the quarians using it on themselves, and their insurgents, is beyond a ridiculous concept.
And again, since the geth were originaly created for labor, which would likely include the handling of hazardus materials, they would likely have been designed to be immune to chemical weapons, so that the quarians didn't have to handle it themselves. Everything points to the geth using those weapons.
And in ME1, the geth Heretics had a
better weapon to use then chem warfare by that time - Dragon's Teeth, and the husks they produced. You get a new shock troop for each kill in the same ammount of time, making it MUCH more effective then chemical warfare.
5. Gerrel decribes it as the only Geth Dreadnought in system. He I.D.s it as their flagship, meaning that there must not be any others present in the system at that time.
And with the entire galaxy going to hell in a hand-basket, your going to complain about what victories you get?
He wasn't risking the fleet anymore because the ship was disabled. And had he not fired, that same ship would come back and tear through another 10% of the fleet, and this time, there would be no way to stop it, as the geth wouldn't let anyone board this time. It's a now-or-never shot.
Admiral Hackett did the same thing with Sovergien in ME1. They fired on it when it was disabled, despite it being so close to the Citadel Tower, and Shepard, who was nearly crushed by wreckage from the thing as a result. So no, it's not ignroance or stupitidy. It's called a tactical decision. You make them in War. That's a given.
Shepard survived a ship going down (Broken Arrow mission, ME2) and the suicide mission, AND the Arrrival mission. I'm sure Gerrel knew that Shepard's survival skills ment the chance of the Commander NOT surviving were slim.
Gerrel had NO CLUE about Legion. In fact, no one did, as Raan reacts to Legion's presance on the Normandy, maning she was unaware of it, even after it was freed, and stayed that way until she met it in person. So Legion being on that ship doesn't even factor in at all to Gerrel's choice, as he wasn't even aware of it. Even then, I doubt him of all people would be crying over the loss of a special geth, that was being used as the antenna to command the geth to attack the fleet.
So no, it was a calculated risk. Shepard makes them all the time in the games. You can't blame someone else for doing what Shepard does on a daily basis.
6. Indeed. They could have at least extended the offer. Eevn if no one took it up the first time, at least they knew the offer was there, and in time, people would have likely warmed up to it.
The geth's isolation was as much a factor in the war as eveything else.
Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 janvier 2013 - 03:05 .
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