391 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Get over it.

The Quarians were always the ones who attacked the Geth. The Admirals chose to slap dreadnought level weapons on their civilian ships for extra firepower against the wishes of the civlians, knowing full well what could happen.

The liveships, yes. The rest of the civilian ships were armed long before the confrontation for defense against pirate raids, per the codex.

The Quarians brought it on themselves, the Geth have only, and always, acted in defense of their own existence.

Not in the Morning War. The difference between Legion and the VI is "self-defense" versus "pre-emptive threat elimination," with a very loose definition of what constitutes a "threat." Yes, the Geth were attacked first, but Mass Effect: Revelation states that the Morning War was a genocide, and the Quarians were unable to adequately protect themselves - as the non-upgraded Geth are now.

It doesn't matter if they're organic or synthetic, any being attacked would defend themselves the same way.

Self-defense, I can support. Retaliatory genocide (which both sides commit if given a chance)? Not so much. Believe me, I don't like destroying the Geth, but if I have to choose a side, they're the ones who are due an ass-kicking.

My stance is simply thus: I view the Geth VI as an unrepentant murderer who deserves death. Legion is a reformed killer who is worthy of a second chance (and makes good on it if he's given that chance, which I give him), but if forced to choose, I wouldn't sacrifice innocent lives to save him. Dorn'Hazt tells you the civvies didn't want anything to do with this, whether Tali is alive or not.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 08:02 .

[WhiteKnyght]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Get over it.

The Quarians were always the ones who attacked the Geth. The Admirals chose to slap dreadnought level weapons on their civilian ships for extra firepower against the wishes of the civlians, knowing full well what could happen.

The liveships, yes. The rest of the civilian ships were armed long before the confrontation for defense against pirate raids, per the codex.

The Quarians brought it on themselves, the Geth have only, and always, acted in defense of their own existence.

Not in the Morning War. The difference between Legion and the VI is "self-defense" versus "pre-emptive threat elimination," with a very loose definition of what constitutes a "threat." Mass Effect: Revelation states that the Morning War was a genocide, and the Quarians were unable to adequately protect themselves - as the non-upgraded Geth are now.

It doesn't matter if they're organic or synthetic, any being attacked would defend themselves the same way.

Self-defense, I can support. Retaliatory genocide (which both sides commit if given a chance)? Not so much. Believe me, I don't like destroying the Geth, but if I have to choose a side, they're the ones who are due an ass-kicking.

My stance is simply thus: I view the Geth VI as an unrepentant murderer who deserves death. Legion is a reformed killer who is worthy of a second chance (and makes good on it if he's given that chance, which I give him), but if forced to choose, I wouldn't sacrifice innocent lives to save him.

1. Talk to Admiral Raan during the mission line. She tells you every ship was outfitted with Thanix Cannons FOR the Invasion. Standard guns don't count. Shepard accused her of violating the Treaty of Farixen by converting their liveships to carry dreadnought class weapons.

2. Did you even pay attention to ANY details given about the morning war? 1) Geth asked their creators if they had souls. 2) Creators tried to kill them out of fear. 3) Geth fought back and won, and let the remaining Quarians escape. Mass Effect Revelation's telling is all third party presumption. You don't meet any Quarians or Geth to hear their versions. Not to mention the data in the server shows that the Quarians began using violence against their own people who sympathized with the Geth. By the time the Geth started organized revolts, the sympathizing creators were arguably wiped out.

3. "We destroy them, or they destroy us."

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

stevefox1200 wrote...

If a someone was shooting at me and then starting running away I don't think shooting them in the back is wrong

You do realize you go to prison for that.

[Iakus]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. Talk to Admiral Raan during the mission line. She tells you every ship was outfitted with Thanix Cannons FOR the Invasion. Standard guns don't count. Shepard accused her of violating the Treaty of Farixen by converting their liveships to carry dreadnought class weapons.

2. Did you even pay attention to ANY details given about the morning war? 1) Geth asked their creators if they had souls. 2) Creators tried to kill them out of fear. 3) Geth fought back and won, and let the remaining Quarians escape. Mass Effect Revelation's telling is all third party presumption. You don't meet any Quarians or Geth to hear their versions. Not to mention the data in the server shows that the Quarians began using violence against their own people who sympathized with the Geth. By the time the Geth started organized revolts, the sympathizing creators were arguably wiped out.

3. "We destroy them, or they destroy us."

There were billions of quarians on Rannoch at the start of the Morning War.

A few million were allowed to flee.

How much you wanna bet there were a whole mess of quarian children and other noncombatants among the billions of dead?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I didn't do Arrival, so Shepard's incarceration makes even less sense. <_<

Oh you're one of those people.

You know what we get locked up for, don't you? Cerberus (a terrorist organization) files criminal charges against us for stealing a starship, and we turn it over to the Alliance, hence we are caught red handed.

And fortunately for us we did, because if we didn't we'd be flying around in a stolen shuttle craft for the entire ME3 story because the Alliance didn't bother replacing one, not one of the ships lost during the Battle of the Citadel (8 frigates if you saved the Destiny Ascension) or the Normandy (two months later). I guess we would have been too tough for the Reapers to beat if we had.

[DeinonSlayer]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. Talk to Admiral Raan during the mission line. She tells you every ship was outfitted with Thanix Cannons FOR the Invasion. Standard guns don't count. Shepard accused her of violating the Treaty of Farixen by converting their liveships to carry dreadnought class weapons.

The liveships were fitted with them, yes. The rest of the civilian fleet? No. And Farixen applies to the Quarians about as much as it applies to the Geth ever since the Council kicked them to the curb.

2. Did you even pay attention to ANY details given about the morning war? 1) Geth asked their creators if they had souls. 2) Creators tried to kill them out of fear. 3) Geth fought back and won, and let the remaining Quarians escape. Mass Effect Revelation's telling is all third party presumption. You don't meet any Quarians or Geth to hear their versions. Not to mention the data in the server shows that the Quarians began using violence against their own people who sympathized with the Geth. By the time the Geth started organized revolts, the sympathizing creators were arguably wiped out.

One casualty does not a genocide make. Assuming we can believe anything we see in the Consensus at all in the face of Legion's constant lies of omission (which I will concede for the purpose of this discussion), Legion makes it sound like the Geth sympathizers were actually the majority before conflict broke out, but public opinion eventually shifted. Legion also tells us the Geth are clearing up "toxins" from a ground war that ended centuries ago. The editorial heard in the Spectre office after Thessia describes the Morning War as an "unthinkable slaughter." The Geth (back then, having the mentality of the VI) deemed the entire Quarian species a threat, and worked to eliminate the threat until it ceased to be a threat (the final fleeing refugees). Legion gains a new perspective in his travels, and seeks to atone for that.

99% of the entire Quarian population was wiped out in a single year (that timestamp comes from the Geth Consensus). Granted, the writers tried to skirt around the issue in ME3, but what we're told in Revelation is consistent with in-game dialogue.

3. "We destroy them, or they destroy us."

Funny. The Quarians are acting on the same presumption. They stop fighting when Shepard tells them that isn't the case (if the VI is present, it is).

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 08:17 .

[DeinonSlayer]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I didn't do Arrival, so Shepard's incarceration makes even less sense. <_<

Oh you're one of those people.

You know what we get locked up for, don't you? Cerberus (a terrorist organization) files criminal charges against us for stealing a starship, and we turn it over to the Alliance, hence we are caught red handed.

And fortunately for us we did, because if we didn't we'd be flying around in a stolen shuttle craft for the entire ME3 story because the Alliance didn't bother replacing one, not one of the ships lost during the Battle of the Citadel (8 frigates if you saved the Destiny Ascension) or the Normandy (two months later). I guess we would have been too tough for the Reapers to beat if we had.

And here I thought it was for giving conflicting endorsements to all those stores.

[Sweawm]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

Because the Geth naturally hate idiotic species.

If so, then the Geth would be at never-ending war with all organic life in the universe. And the Catalyst would be watching from the sidlines with popcorn. 

[3DandBeyond]

Dhoozy77 wrote...

It not like they could fight back being such on said glass canon. Once the heavy fleet was gone there were no reason to kill the children and hunt down every last quarian survivor.  It was hypocritcal of the geth to say " we regret the death of the creators" when clearly they could have spared some. 

Let me ask this.  Do you think that makes no sense, even though the geth were initially slaughtered by the quarians not because of anything they did, but what the quarians thought they would do-fear?  And do you think it makes sense that every time the geth have been seen they are seen as killer robots with no care for life at all (by most of the people of the galaxy) and yet the quarians are merely seen as scroungers, scavengers and even thieves?  And do you think it makes no sense for geth whose understanding of weaponry came from seeing guns shooting at them by those that created them to be afraid of any quarian with a weapon?  Do you think it makes sense to the geth, considering that the geth wanted to be like the quarians, as a child tries to show off to its parents by learning things, that the quarians turned on them to begin with? 

And do you think that the idea of killing more advanced species in order to save less advanced one does make sense?  And does it makes sense that the quarians have always wanted to for the most part completely exterminate the geth but the reverse was not shown to be true-even though it became clear the geth could have fully done so in the Morning War and yet the geth are the ones always meant to pay for that war? 

If all of this is so, then how can a synthetic race that has always been met with at best skepticism and at worst full on hostility and killing rage when confronted by organics, just automatically understand which ones that are armed are not out to kill them, even with upgrades that are meant to jumpstart understanding?  A lot of learning isn't done just by being told something is so-it is often done by seeing it for yourself.  So, the geth are constantly shown one thing and are told another-they see quarians that want to kill them, but they're told to not try and what, fight back?  And they may well not have a real full understanding of the difference between civilians with guns that's shooting at them, and others with guns, in a war where no one is really a civilian.

[3DandBeyond]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
I didn't do Arrival, so Shepard's incarceration makes even less sense. <_<

Oh you're one of those people.

You know what we get locked up for, don't you? Cerberus (a terrorist organization) files criminal charges against us for stealing a starship, and we turn it over to the Alliance, hence we are caught red handed.

And fortunately for us we did, because if we didn't we'd be flying around in a stolen shuttle craft for the entire ME3 story because the Alliance didn't bother replacing one, not one of the ships lost during the Battle of the Citadel (8 frigates if you saved the Destiny Ascension) or the Normandy (two months later). I guess we would have been too tough for the Reapers to beat if we had.

And here I thought it was for giving conflicting endorsements to all those stores.

SJ's got it right.  The Alliance sat on their butts, fingers in their noses, waiting for something to happen and arrested Shepard no matter what.  I mean, if you don't do the Arrival there's really nothing Shepard did that warrants that.  If you did do the Arrival, there's every way possible to keep Shepard from bearing the blame.  These are the greatest military minds the Earth has to offer.  No wonder TIM and Cerberus start to look like brainiacs, even when doing everything they can to create Cerber-Reapers and to control other reapers.  And then Omega makes it look like they achieved all that with the Adjutants.  Meet the New Boss-Same as the Old Boss.

[stevefox1200]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

stevefox1200 wrote...

If a someone was shooting at me and then starting running away I don't think shooting them in the back is wrong

You do realize you go to prison for that.

.................. of course officer

I mean in a war type situation

Please do not gun down your neighbors kids

[DeinonSlayer]

stevefox1200 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

stevefox1200 wrote...

If a someone was shooting at me and then starting running away I don't think shooting them in the back is wrong

You do realize you go to prison for that.

.................. of course officer

I mean in a war type situation

Please do not gun down your neighbors kids

Okay, this might be a bit off-topic, but I have to ask:

Your avatar. Is that a character from Dragon Age, or something? I've never played it.

[Meltemph]

How much you wanna bet there were a whole mess of quarian children and other noncombatants among the billions of dead?

Unless the "noncombatants" sided with the Quarians that wanted to destroy them, they would be fine. This would mean that the Quarians would have had to wipe out their own dissenters, which means all that was left were the ones that wanted to wipe them out.

[Ticonderoga117]

stevefox1200 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

stevefox1200 wrote...

If a someone was shooting at me and then starting running away I don't think shooting them in the back is wrong

You do realize you go to prison for that.

.................. of course officer

I mean in a war type situation

Please do not gun down your neighbors kids

I don't care if they are kids, if they are trying to kill me, I'm going to defend myself.

[stevefox1200]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

stevefox1200 wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

stevefox1200 wrote...

If a someone was shooting at me and then starting running away I don't think shooting them in the back is wrong

You do realize you go to prison for that.

.................. of course officer

I mean in a war type situation

Please do not gun down your neighbors kids

I don't care if they are kids, if they are trying to kill me, I'm going to defend myself.

sorry I meant  "neighbors, kids"

as in I am telling the shorties to not kill their neighbors

commas, whats up that, am I right?

[GreyLycanTrope]

let's eat grandma
let's eat, grandma
punctuations save lives

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

How much you wanna bet there were a whole mess of quarian children and other noncombatants among the billions of dead?

Unless the "noncombatants" sided with the Quarians that wanted to destroy them, they would be fine. This would mean that the Quarians would have had to wipe out their own dissenters, which means all that was left were the ones that wanted to wipe them out.

Poison gas tends not to discriminate ("rubble and toxins from the Morning War"). And evidently, the Geth used enough of it that they're still repairing ecological damage to Rannoch three centuries later.

The planet Rannoch, an arid planet orbiting an older star in the Tikkun system, is the former quarian homeworld. Almost three hundred years ago, the quarians were driven from Rannoch by the geth, synthetic servants who gained sapience and rebelled against their creators. Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.

Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems, which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity.

I'm trying to think of a more effective means to wipe out an entire population than mass chemical warfare, but it's just not coming to me. You couldn't achieve that death toll in that timespan by dropping an asteroid on the planet.

I wonder if that's why the Quarians first started making those suits...

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 08:48 .

[samurai crusade]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

stevefox1200 wrote...

If a someone was shooting at me and then starting running away I don't think shooting them in the back is wrong

You do realize you go to prison for that.

youve got to love the law, and equal rights amendments.  It always amazes me how our judicial system can turn a victim into an assailant.  And vice versa.

[Meltemph]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

How much you wanna bet there were a whole mess of quarian children and other noncombatants among the billions of dead?

Unless the "noncombatants" sided with the Quarians that wanted to destroy them, they would be fine. This would mean that the Quarians would have had to wipe out their own dissenters, which means all that was left were the ones that wanted to wipe them out.

Poison gas tends not to discriminate ("rubble and toxins from the Morning War"). And evidently, the Geth used enough of it that they're still repairing ecological damage to Rannoch three centuries later.

The planet Rannoch, an arid planet orbiting an older star in the Tikkun system, is the former quarian homeworld. Almost three hundred years ago, the quarians were driven from Rannoch by the geth, synthetic servants who gained sapience and rebelled against their creators. Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.

Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems, which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity.

You are making a massive assumption if you are trying to imply what you I think you are.  

Modifié par Meltemph, 20 janvier 2013 - 08:48 .

[xBLAKx Skytop]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
They weren't firing, they were fleeing.

They were firing a moment earlier. Is there a new rule of warfare that prevents you from firing at a retreating enemy?

If a guy throws down his gun and runs away, begging for his life, yes.
Even more so if you wound him, then execute him, take his address, then kill his wife and child in the rationality that his family would want to avenge him and potentially seek you out.
There are no rules in war, but that doesn't mean you don't deserve to die for acts of cruelty.

It's the little things like this that makes me wish the Geth could feel pain, and the Quarians were right to think they were ****s.

Even more so to want their planet back.

[Meltemph]

I'm trying to think of a more effective means to wipe out an entire population than mass chemical warfare, but it's just not coming to me. You couldn't achieve that death toll in that timespan by dropping an asteroid on the planet.

I wonder if that's why the Quarians first started making those suits...

Do you not realize that the piece of information you mentioned was in context of: Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation.

[stevefox1200]

samurai crusade wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

stevefox1200 wrote...

If a someone was shooting at me and then starting running away I don't think shooting them in the back is wrong

You do realize you go to prison for that.

youve got to love the law, and equal rights amendments.  It always amazes me how our judicial system can turn a victim into an assailant.  And vice versa.

To be fair I prefer it that you can't just go all American History X on a theif in your front yard

[xBLAKx Skytop]

Meltemph wrote...

How much you wanna bet there were a whole mess of quarian children and other noncombatants among the billions of dead?

Unless the "noncombatants" sided with the Quarians that wanted to destroy them, they would be fine. This would mean that the Quarians would have had to wipe out their own dissenters, which means all that was left were the ones that wanted to wipe them out.

So, hold on.

Let me get this straight.

The Geth won the war, by a HUGE longshot.

Yet they couldn't protect their own sympathizers?

Either the Geth killed them too.

Or remind me to NEVER hire a Geth as a personal bodyguard.

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

How much you wanna bet there were a whole mess of quarian children and other noncombatants among the billions of dead?

Unless the "noncombatants" sided with the Quarians that wanted to destroy them, they would be fine. This would mean that the Quarians would have had to wipe out their own dissenters, which means all that was left were the ones that wanted to wipe them out.

Poison gas tends not to discriminate ("rubble and toxins from the Morning War"). And evidently, the Geth used enough of it that they're still repairing ecological damage to Rannoch three centuries later.

The planet Rannoch, an arid planet orbiting an older star in the Tikkun system, is the former quarian homeworld. Almost three hundred years ago, the quarians were driven from Rannoch by the geth, synthetic servants who gained sapience and rebelled against their creators. Although Rannoch is now largely uninhabited, the geth have acted as caretakers, working to repair the planet's ecology, restore ancient structures, and cultivate some farmland.

Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation. This symbiosis between flora and fauna is responsible for the quarians' weakened immune systems, which made colonization of other planets extremely difficult after their exile from Rannoch. For many quarians, reclaiming their homeworld from the geth is a matter of both cultural and physiological necessity.

You are making a massive assumption if you are trying to imply what you I think you are. 

What, versus the massive assumption of some sort of full scale quarian-on-quarian genocide occurring in the span of a single year, followed by the Geth ONLY targeting those who directly targeted them? Seems to me that Geth sympathizers will do just about anything to put a rifle in the hands of every casualty in the Morning War, just to justify the act of killing them. Why is it so hard to accept what's said in the books as fact? Do you have an alternate explanation for the continuing presence of these toxins, for the ecological damage to Rannoch when Legion says the Quarians didn't use nukes?

The pieces all fit. The Quarian government attempted genocide against the Geth. The Geth retaliated with a successful one.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 08:53 .

[Ticonderoga117]

stevefox1200 wrote...

sorry I meant  "neighbors, kids"

as in I am telling the shorties to not kill their neighbors

commas, whats up that, am I right?

Ah. Well shoot the commas too then!