391 réponses à ce sujet

[SeptimusMagistos]

xBLAKx Skytop wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
They weren't firing, they were fleeing.

They were firing a moment earlier. Is there a new rule of warfare that prevents you from firing at a retreating enemy?

If a guy throws down his gun and runs away, begging for his life, yes.

Oh good. So the fact that when the quarians thought they could wipe out all geth five seconds earlier they were happy to do so is apparently totally irrelevant. As is the fact that they didn't decide that the geth deserve to live - only that they can't kill them right now. Or that the last time the geth let a quarian fleet leave it came back trying to kill them all.

And when is the last time the quarians stopped firing at a geth that stopped firing at them?

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

I'm trying to think of a more effective means to wipe out an entire population than mass chemical warfare, but it's just not coming to me. You couldn't achieve that death toll in that timespan by dropping an asteroid on the planet.

I wonder if that's why the Quarians first started making those suits...

Do you not realize that the piece of information you mentioned was in context of: Rannoch has no insect life. As a result, its pollinating plants evolved to rely on animals for propagation.

I'm saying it's possible the suits were first designed as NBC gear, then later became a permanent fixture to protect their wearers from their own failing immune systems.

[Meltemph]

What, versus the massive assumption of some sort of full scale quarian-on-quarian genocide occurring in the span of a single year, followed by the Geth ONLY targeting those who directly targeted them? Seems to me that Geth sympathizers will do just about anything to put a rifle in the hands of every casualty in the Morning War, just to justify the act of killing them. Why is it so hard to accept what's said in the books as fact? Do you have an alternate explanation for the continuing presence of these toxins, for the ecological damage to Rannoch when Legion says the Quarians didn't use nukes?

Revelation didn't have specifics, you have to take everything we know from all the books and games, the details. You are taking one data point to make your assumption fit. I'm not the one making an assumption. I'm going based off of the details we were given, without creating any details of my own.

[xBLAKx Skytop]

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

xBLAKx Skytop wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
They weren't firing, they were fleeing.

They were firing a moment earlier. Is there a new rule of warfare that prevents you from firing at a retreating enemy?

If a guy throws down his gun and runs away, begging for his life, yes.

Oh good. So the fact that when the quarians thought they could wipe out all geth five seconds earlier they were happy to do so is apparently totally irrelevant. As is the fact that they didn't decide that the geth deserve to live - only that they can't kill them right now. Or that the last time the geth let a quarian fleet leave it came back trying to kill them all.

And when is the last time the quarians stopped firing at a geth that stopped firing at them?

Why should the Quarians have stopped shooting?

The Geth are still shooting, they just can't aim for ****.

Shepard withheld information from them that the Geth were going to surrender.

And the Quarians had every reason in the world to believe that this was some sort of bull**** charade, and the Geth would have shot them in the back of the head the first chance they got. The VI confirms that Legion is just about the only Geth that truely does want to bring the races together. The rest go on Psychotic rampages, and then do the 'Bambi Eyes' when they are facing the repricussions.

[stevefox1200]

Really I think this comes down to

Quarians don't like the Geth

Geth don't like the Quarians

You need a fleet, pick the one prefer

(personally I prefer the Geth, the Quarians are ragtag, have little self control and tend to make their own problems, while the Geth are powerful, disciplined and organized)

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

What, versus the massive assumption of some sort of full scale quarian-on-quarian genocide occurring in the span of a single year, followed by the Geth ONLY targeting those who directly targeted them? Seems to me that Geth sympathizers will do just about anything to put a rifle in the hands of every casualty in the Morning War, just to justify the act of killing them. Why is it so hard to accept what's said in the books as fact? Do you have an alternate explanation for the continuing presence of these toxins, for the ecological damage to Rannoch when Legion says the Quarians didn't use nukes?

Revelation didn't have specifics, you have to take everything we know from all the books and games, the details.

That's precisely what I'm doing. Legion wouldn't do something like that, but Legion (and his perspective) didn't exist three
years before the events of ME3, and I have no doubt that the Geth VI would.

You are taking one data point to make your assumption fit. I'm not the one making an assumption. I'm going based off of the details we were given, without creating any details of my own.

What I shared is the conclusion I drew from looking at the data. Geth clearing "toxins" from a ground war that ended centuries earlier. Lasting ecological damage. "Unthinkable slaughter" with 99% of the population of a spacefaring species with multiple colony worlds dead in a single year.

The writers wanted us to speculate about it, leaving the details deliberately vague. That's the conclusion I reached, but others have their own, and they're welcome to them. I've seen others on these boards who concluded that the Quarians exterminated themselves by stampeding to escape ships.

Sadly, I'm not making that up.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:09 .

[Meltemph]

"toxins"

Where are you getting this from? Toxins were only used in revelation once, and that was in regards to Sanders. What we know(not based on our choices):

1. Quarian's population was reduced to 1%

2. Geth were the reason for the quarians being reduced to 1%

3. The Geth protected the quarians who sided with them

4. Geth maintained the planet because without the Quarians the ecology of the planet was broken

5. The Quarians in 3 were planing to wipe out all the Geth

6. The Quarians equipped all their ships with guns and attacked the Geth

7. The Reapers get involved because the Geth cry to them for help

8. Reapers take advantage of the situation

9. End resault(no matter the outcome) was the results of the Reapers getting involved in the conflict.

Everything else is making things up to fit a certain scenario.

Modifié par Meltemph, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:19 .

[IIEquillibriumII]

stevefox1200 wrote...

Really I think this comes down to

Quarians don't like the Geth

Geth don't like the Quarians

You need a fleet, pick the one prefer

(personally I prefer the Geth, the Quarians are ragtag, have little self control and tend to make their own problems, while the Geth are powerful, disciplined and organized)

or just make them work togeather.

[Iamjdr]

I defiantly think deinonslayer is onto something. I mean it's been 300 years since the morning war and the Geth are still trying to repair rannoch? Chemical warfare would be perfect for Geth to use as it would have no effect on them, and what better way to clear a planet of organics then to make there home planet uninhabitable for them and then kill anyone who does anything but leave. and that would also explain why the quarians started wearing those suits in the first place.

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

"toxins"

Where are you getting this from?

Legion, in ME2, says the Geth are clearing "rubble and toxins from the Morning War" when you ask in what capacity the Geth have been acting as caretakers for a planet they otherwise don't use.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Geth took over the symbiotic function with Rannoch's plant life in their creators' absence (I bet their legs look exactly the same). Still, there would have been other symbiotic animal life on Rannoch than just the Quarians themselves. The plants wouldn't all die if just one species went extinct.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:23 .

[Obadiah]

thehomeworld wrote...

Their insurance policy thats why. Legion claims somewhere (I think back in ME2) that whenever the Quarians had superior firepower they used it so they decided to just get rid of them all.

I think that's when Shep takes Legion to Tali's trial and sepaks to the Quarian admirals. The Quarians largely agree that they will kill all the Geth if given the chance. This is why Legion and the Quarian admiral agree there can be no peace between them.

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:23 .

[Meltemph]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

"toxins"

Where are you getting this from?

Legion, in ME2, says the Geth are clearing "rubble and toxins from the Morning War" when you ask in what capacity the Geth have been acting as caretakers for a planet they otherwise don't use.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Geth took over the symbiotic function with Rannoch's plant life in their creators' absence (I bet their legs look exactly the same). Still, there would have been other symbiotic animal life on Rannoch than just the Quarians themselves. The plants wouldn't all die if just one species went extinct.

Assumption.  You dont know how important the Quarians were to the ecology.

[Reorte]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm saying it's possible the suits were first designed as NBC gear, then later became a permanent fixture to protect their wearers from their own failing immune systems.

I assumed that the suits were something they often wore on non-quarian worlds. IIRC Tali implies that they were always vulnerable to diseases from elsewhere.

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

"toxins"

Where are you getting this from?

Legion, in ME2, says the Geth are clearing "rubble and toxins from the Morning War" when you ask in what capacity the Geth have been acting as caretakers for a planet they otherwise don't use.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Geth took over the symbiotic function with Rannoch's plant life in their creators' absence (I bet their legs look exactly the same). Still, there would have been other symbiotic animal life on Rannoch than just the Quarians themselves. The plants wouldn't all die if just one species went extinct.

Assumption.  You dont know how important the Quarians were to the ecology.

True, but it stands to reason that they weren't solely responsible for the continued existence of plant life on their planet.

If it was chemical warfare, I doubt the Quarians would have been the only species to (locally) go extinct. Still, nothing says the Geth weren't re-cultivating other animal species as part of their restoration efforts.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:30 .

[IIEquillibriumII]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

"toxins"

Where are you getting this from?

Legion, in ME2, says the Geth are clearing "rubble and toxins from the Morning War" when you ask in what capacity the Geth have been acting as caretakers for a planet they otherwise don't use.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Geth took over the symbiotic function with Rannoch's plant life in their creators' absence (I bet their legs look exactly the same). Still, there would have been other symbiotic animal life on Rannoch than just the Quarians themselves. The plants wouldn't all die if just one species went extinct.

Well on Rannoch where you are at the ¨reaper base¨ you actually see what i believe is birds on the planet. so that kinda proves you're point about ¨other symbiotic animal life¨. 

[Meltemph]

 

True, but it stands to reason that they weren't solely responsible for the continued existence of plant life on their planet.

It doenst matter if they were solely responsible.  Combined with the codex it is quite possible that they had a cascade effect on their ecology, either way it doesnt matter, you are adding in things we dont know to prove/assert a point.

[Ticonderoga117]

For the toxins bit, imagine if humanity had to pack up and leave right now. Imagine all of those factories and chemical plants that could break down and release all of that crud. Now add warfare to the mix.

While chemical agents may have been used, it simply could've been accidental release during the war and retreat.

[Obadiah]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

What, versus the massive assumption of some sort of full scale quarian-on-quarian genocide occurring in the span of a single year, followed by the Geth ONLY targeting those who directly targeted them? Seems to me that Geth sympathizers will do just about anything to put a rifle in the hands of every casualty in the Morning War, just to justify the act of killing them. Why is it so hard to accept what's said in the books as fact? Do you have an alternate explanation for the continuing presence of these toxins, for the ecological damage to Rannoch when Legion says the Quarians didn't use nukes?

Revelation didn't have specifics, you have to take everything we know from all the books and games, the details.

That's precisely what I'm doing. Legion wouldn't do something like that, but Legion (and his perspective) didn't exist three
years before the events of ME3, and I have no doubt that the Geth VI would.

You are taking one data point to make your assumption fit. I'm not the one making an assumption. I'm going based off of the details we were given, without creating any details of my own.

What I shared is the conclusion I drew from looking at the data. Geth clearing "toxins" from a ground war that ended centuries earlier. Lasting ecological damage. "Unthinkable slaughter" with 99% of the population of a spacefaring species with multiple colony worlds dead in a single year.

The writers wanted us to speculate about it, leaving the details deliberately vague. That's the conclusion I reached, but others have their own, and they're welcome to them. I've seen others on these boards who concluded that the Quarians exterminated themselves by stampeding to escape ships.

Sadly, I'm not making that up.

Well, as long as we're speculating... irrespective of whether the Geth used chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons, the Geth were producted in factories, probably located in populates areas. I'd guess once the Quarians started getting desperate in the war they may very well have targetted those factories and surroundings with WMDs as legitimate enemy concentrations. Those WMDs would have been toxic to the Geth that might contain chemicals that could also destroy the Quarian's own ecological enviornment. Maybe the areas were evacuated beforehand, maybe the Quarians fired the weapons anyway and chalked up the deaths to unfortunate collateral damage.

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:42 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

 

True, but it stands to reason that they weren't solely responsible for the continued existence of plant life on their planet.

It doenst matter if they were solely responsible.  Combined with the codex it is quite possible that they had a cascade effect on their ecology, either way it doesnt matter, you are adding in things we dont know to prove/assert a point.

All I'm doing to restating what Legion said, what the planet's codex entry said, what the books and in-game dialogue said. It's a reasonable conclusion, when you look at all of those things, that the Geth made widespread use of chemical warfare. You're free to disagree with it.

[Meltemph]

It's a reasonable conclusion, when you look at all of those things, that the Geth made widespread use of chemical warfare.

It's a possible conclusion, but I dont agree that it is a reasonable conclusion as a basis to derive a point from, in terms of the actions of the geth. On its own you are right, it is reasonable, but when you try and assert this assertion onto something more then the original assumption it no longer becomes reasonable.

[DeinonSlayer]

Obadiah wrote...

Well, as long as we're speculating... irrespective of whether the Geth used chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons, the Geth were producted in factories, probably located in populates areas. I'd guess once the Quarians started getting desperate in the war they may very will have used WMDs toxic to the Geth that might contain chemicals that could also destroy their ecological enviornment. Maybe the areas were evacuated beforehand, maybe the Quarians fired the weapons anyway and chalked it up to unfortunate collateral damage.

There was dialogue on Tuchanka in ME2 that addressed this if you brought Tali and Legion there.

Legion: The Krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.

Tali: We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them.

Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions Krogan thrive in.

The Quarians didn't make use of these weapons, but the state of Rannoch tells us they were used.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:44 .

[Reorte]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

For the toxins bit, imagine if humanity had to pack up and leave right now. Imagine all of those factories and chemical plants that could break down and release all of that crud. Now add warfare to the mix.

While chemical agents may have been used, it simply could've been accidental release during the war and retreat.

I think if that happened then some local areas would be seriously messed up but the impact on the entire planet wouldn't be massively severe.

[Obadiah]

DeinonSlayer wrote...
...
There was dialogue on Tuchanka in ME2 that addressed this if you brought Tali and Legion there.

Legion: The Krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.

Tali: We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them.

Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions Krogan thrive in.

Yeah, but that's a "bomb". I'm talking about WMDs that would cause ecological disasters.

And as long as we're bringing up quotes, do you really think Tali would not bring up something relevant like the Geth using bombs wehn the Qaurians didn't right then if the Geth did?

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:46 .

[Meltemph]

The Quarians didn't make use of these weapons, but the state of Rannoch tells us they were used.

No, it does not tell us this. This is your assumption.

[DeinonSlayer]

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
...
There was dialogue on Tuchanka in ME2 that addressed this if you brought Tali and Legion there.

Legion: The Krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.

Tali: We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them.

Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions Krogan thrive in.

Yeah, but that's a bomb. I'm talking about WMDs that would cause ecological disasters.

I'm looking directly at what Tali said there - a point Legion concurs with. The Quarians didn't make use of such weapons, but the state of Rannoch tells us they were used. Given the lopsided death toll and the mentality of the Geth at that time, it makes sense to me that the Geth used them.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:47 .