391 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticonderoga117]

Reorte wrote...
I think if that happened then some local areas would be seriously messed up but the impact on the entire planet wouldn't be massively severe.

Good point.

[Obadiah]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
...
There was dialogue on Tuchanka in ME2 that addressed this if you brought Tali and Legion there.

Legion: The Krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.

Tali: We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them.

Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions Krogan thrive in.

Yeah, but that's a bomb. I'm talking about WMDs that would cause ecological disasters.

I'm looking directly at what Tali said there - a point Legion concurs with. The Quarians didn't make use of such weapons, but the state of Rannoch tells us they were used. Given the lopsided death toll and the mentality of the Geth at that time, it makes sense to me that the Geth used them.

Haestrom didn't look bombed. What's the data point you're using to assume the Geth bombed Rannoch to a state similar to Tuchanka? Do they say the state of Tuchanka resembles Rannoch? Also, bear in mind, chemical weapons don't have to include massive destructive blasts.

[DeinonSlayer]

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
...
There was dialogue on Tuchanka in ME2 that addressed this if you brought Tali and Legion there.

Legion: The Krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.

Tali: We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them.

Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions Krogan thrive in.

Yeah, but that's a bomb. I'm talking about WMDs that would cause ecological disasters.

I'm looking directly at what Tali said there - a point Legion concurs with. The Quarians didn't make use of such weapons, but the state of Rannoch tells us they were used. Given the lopsided death toll and the mentality of the Geth at that time, it makes sense to me that the Geth used them.

Haestrom didn't look bombed. What's the data point you're using to assume the Geth bombed Rannoch to a state similar to Tuchanka? Do they say the state of Tuchanka resembles Rannoch? Also, bear in mind, chemical weapons don't have to include massive destructive blasts.

I'm not saying the Geth used nukes - I don't think either side did (at least not extensively, like the Krogan). I believe, based on Legion's statement in-game, the current state of Rannoch, and the casualty figures we're given, that the Geth used chemical weapons. No explosions involved.

That's not to say it's all they'd have used. The Codex says that the Geth would use waves of thousands of mobile platforms to assault Quarian fortifications - lose a body, broadcast back to the hub, download into a new one and get back into the field. To borrow a line from Battlestar Galactica, "death becomes a learning experience."

From secondary codex entry, Geth culture:

Records of the quarian war suggest the geth have no concept of self-preservation. They do not flinch from gunfire, and do not hesitate to sacrifice themselves if it allows their fellows an advantage. Thousands of mobile platforms were expended assaulting quarian positions, but file-sharing between platforms ensured their memories and experience would not be lost. Geth are therefore immortal; if their hardware is destroyed, archival copies of their programs and databases can be downloaded into a new body.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:03 .

[Meltemph]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
...
There was dialogue on Tuchanka in ME2 that addressed this if you brought Tali and Legion there.

Legion: The Krogan chose to bomb their own world into this condition. The Creators were not so aggressive during the Morning War.

Tali: We expected to get our worlds back. We didn't want to destroy them.

Legion: We are glad you did not. You could not endure the conditions Krogan thrive in.

Yeah, but that's a bomb. I'm talking about WMDs that would cause ecological disasters.

I'm looking directly at what Tali said there - a point Legion concurs with. The Quarians didn't make use of such weapons, but the state of Rannoch tells us they were used. Given the lopsided death toll and the mentality of the Geth at that time, it makes sense to me that the Geth used them.

Haestrom didn't look bombed. What's the data point you're using to assume the Geth bombed Rannoch to a state similar to Tuchanka? Do they say the state of Tuchanka resembles Rannoch? Also, bear in mind, chemical weapons don't have to include massive destructive blasts.

I'm not saying the Geth used nukes - I don't think either side did. I believe, based on Legion's statement in-game, the current state of Rannoch, and the casualty figures we're given, that the Geth used chemical weapons. No explosions involved.

That's not to say it's all they'd have used. The Codex says that the Geth would use waves of thousands of mobile platforms to assault Quarian fortifications - lose a body, broadcast back to the hub, download into a new one and get back into the field. To borrow a line from Battlestar Galactica, "death becomes a learning experience."

This is what I am talking about.  The game tells us the tactics they used, but you personally dont think it is sufficient, so you add "possibiliteis" to prove an assertion, based your persona bias on a situtation.

Why not just keep it at "The Geth used waves of geth platforms" instead of creating/adding another scenario?  Why do you want to make it more complicated?  To prove a theme you want to be true?

To give things you think "might" have happened is one thing, but then to create conclusions based on this is just wanting points to come to a conlucsion you had before the assumptions themselves.

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

I'm not saying the Geth used nukes - I don't think either side did. I believe, based on Legion's statement in-game, the current state of Rannoch, and the casualty figures we're given, that the Geth used chemical weapons. No explosions involved.

That's not to say it's all they'd have used. The Codex says that the Geth would use waves of thousands of mobile platforms to assault Quarian fortifications - lose a body, broadcast back to the hub, download into a new one and get back into the field. To borrow a line from Battlestar Galactica, "death becomes a learning experience."

This is what I am talking about.  The game tells us the tactics they used, but you personally dont think it is sufficient, so you add "possibiliteis" to prove an assertion, based your persona bias on a situtation.

Why not just keep it at "The Geth used waves of geth platforms" instead of creating/adding another scenario?  Why do you want to make it more complicated?  To prove a theme you want to be true?

To give things you think "might" have happened is one thing, but then to create conclusions based on this is just wanting points to come to a conlucsion you had before the assumptions themselves.

The game tells us a tactic they used. I'm trying to account for the "toxins" Legion mentioned and the ecological damage to Rannoch which is otherwise unaccounted for. The pieces fit. Other people have provided alternatives, but as others have noted, these alternatives have their own problems.

Would you prefer to believe that Geth platforms personally shot every single Quarian they encountered (the wave tactic described in the codex)? 99% of the species in a year? Or would you rather believe they used a non-targeted system to combat aggressors which happened to cause massive collateral damage? Frankly, in light of the massive civilians losses which took place, I think option one makes them look worse.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:15 .

[Meltemph]

 Would you prefer to believe that Geth platforms personally shot every single Quarian they encountered (the wave tactic described in the codex)? 99% of the species in a year? Or would you rather believe they used a non-targeted system to combat aggressors which happened to cause massive collateral damage? Frankly, in light of the massive civilians losses which took place, I think option one makes them look worse.

You are simpfying everything to meet your premise.  We know the Geth were responsible for the Quarians reaching 1% population, but we dont know if every death was the resault of the geth themselves, seeing as we know for a fact that Geth defended Quarians who sided with them.  We dont know what responses the quarians used or the Geth during that time fram.  So since we dont know, we should base our decisions on what we DO know, and what you can guess.

What I would prefer to believe is what the game told us, without creating mroe scenario's.  I dont have any reason to create more scenario's.

[Iamjdr]

Why would they only use one tactic tho? They are super computers that are apparently immortal, yet the only thing they can come up with is keep running at the quarians till they are overwhelmed? No They will eventually come to the conclusion that these tactics were effective but wasteful and then collaborate on a more efficient solution to there problem.

[Iamjdr]

Wait when does it show Geth protecting the quarians that sided with them?

[Meltemph]

The game tells us a tactic they used. I'm trying to account for the "toxins" Legion mentioned and the ecological damage to Rannoch which is otherwise unaccounted for. The pieces fit. Other people have provided alternatives, but as others have noted, these alternatives have their own problems.

The pieces fit because you make them fit. You are making an irrefutable and unprovable claim and then saying it fits... Well of course it does, we don't have enough information to create an actual premise to have a judgement one way or the other.

[Meltemph]

Iamjdr wrote...

Wait when does it show Geth protecting the quarians that sided with them?

ME3, when you see the memories of the Geth.

[Iamjdr]

It shows the quarians protecting Geth not the other way around. Not one quarian was saved by a Geth in the consensus.

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

 Would you prefer to believe that Geth platforms personally shot every single Quarian they encountered (the wave tactic described in the codex)? 99% of the species in a year? Or would you rather believe they used a non-targeted system to combat aggressors which happened to cause massive collateral damage? Frankly, in light of the massive civilians losses which took place, I think option one makes them look worse.

You are simpfying everything to meet your premise.  We know the Geth were responsible for the Quarians reaching 1% population, but we dont know if every death was the resault of the geth themselves, seeing as we know for a fact that Geth defended Quarians who sided with them.

Did they keep doing that, though? The VI doesn't even acknowledge the Quarians who did. Seems to me there was a tripping point where the Geth stopped discriminating targets. They deemed the entire species a threat, killed indiscriminately until the Quarians ran away, then kept doing it for the next three centuries, treating anything that wasn't Geth that entered their territory as a threat and destroying it.

We dont know what responses the quarians used or the Geth during that time fram.  So since we dont know, we should base our decisions on what we DO know, and what you can guess.

Which is exactly what I'm doing. You simply disagree with my conclusions, and there's nothing wrong with that.

What I would prefer to believe is what the game told us, without creating mroe scenario's.  I dont have any reason to create more scenario's.

Lots of speculation from everyone.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:24 .

[Meltemph]

Iamjdr wrote...

It shows the quarians protecting Geth not the other way around. Not one quarian was saved by a Geth in the consensus.

The Geth was willing to give himself up to save the Quarian, the Quarians killed them all.

Modifié par Meltemph, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:23 .

[Iamjdr]

So it shows the Geth saving the quarians how? If he really wanted to save them why didn't he just turn off like he was asked to originally?

[Meltemph]

Did they keep doing that, though?

I'm going on what the game showed us, not what they didn't. I'm not trying to assert who had more fault. I'm asserting based on what we know it was not as simple as people are making it, by either ignoring certain data points or creating new ones, out of assumptions.

Seems to me

That is great, but it doesn't prove anything one way or the other. To make a decisions based on an unprovable or unknowable assumption is not a great way to go about things.

You simply disagree with my conclusions, and there's nothing wrong with that.

No, I disagree that acting on this conclusion or assuming your conclusion is anything other then an assumption, is right. I dont care if you are right or wrong, because we cant possible know this, ever, unless bioware decides to expound on it.

[Meltemph]

Iamjdr wrote...

So it shows the Geth saving the quarians how? If he really wanted to save them why didn't he just turn off like he was asked to originally?

I didnt say they saved them, I said he was willing to give himself up to the people trying to break down the door.  The whole point of the conflict was they wanted to keep living, so I'm not understanding your point on then "they should have just turned themselves off/destroyed themselves".  

They apparently thought they shouldnt have to destroy themselves, but he was willing to turn himself in, anyways.  The Quarians on the otherside of the door killed the quarian anyways.  You are I'm assuming, saying you think that the only thing the Geth should have done is submit do being turned off/destroyed?

Modifié par Meltemph, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:31 .

[Cyrax86]

sigh *


"why did the Quarians attach guns on a school bus", because their was a Reaper invasion and they would have needed to protection eventually.

"They're stupidly throwing themselves at the Geth", No, Having no real options in the coming Reaper invasion, They needed a world to house their civilians and children, a place to repair their ships and for resources/food etc, what better place than Rannoch. Without Rannoch they would have to stupidly throw themselves at the Reapers, civilians children and all.


"The Quarians are war hungry,/ they even killed their own during the morning war", What i saw was Quarians protecting the Geth, and a couple of Quarians died protecting them, but eventually the Geth decided to kill all the Quarians no matter their alliance. When have the Geth proven to that they aren't war hungry(not saying they are), instead they chose to seclude themselves and attacked anyone that entered their area space.


"Gerral is war hungry, he attacked the ship i was on, so Gerral = Bad, Gerral = all Quarians"
Gerral attacked the Geth Dreadnought that was coming back online, meaning it would have started attacking again. Tali, Reegar, Koris, (I forgot their names)in ME2 the Female Quarians you help on the citadel and illium, or the Quarian on Omega, or when you helped Tali on freedoms progress to save a Quarian that was helping a small human colony for his pilgrimage. For the Good Geth we have Legion and.......umm. People/forums/some Geth supporters demonize the Quarians for the mistakes and yet they take offence when people say heretics = all Geth.


"Why don't Quarians try negotiating for peace", Tali and Legion were having peace talks and Legion severed communication with Tali.

"The Quarians forced the Geth to ally with the Reapers", No, Quarians attacked and Reapers extended an offer which the Geth accepted, "but thats because the Quarians attacked their Dyson swarm/sphere making them dumber", the Reapers would have attacked Rannoch eventually, Reapers would have attacked their Dyson swarm/sphere as well. "but if Quarians and Geth made peace they would have fought Reapers together" If no Quarian attack on Geth, no Reaper upgrade, making them only partially useful and if the Reapers hit the Geth Dyson swarm/sphere, would they have turned on the Quarians and blind sided them.

No matter how you look at it, Geth would lost intelligence over the course of the war, If the Quarians didn't attack when they did the Geth could have blind sided the galaxy not just the Quarians, The Quarians attacking the Geth caused them to turn sooner, when we could actually do something about it.

[Iamjdr]

You said we know for a fact that the Geth protected the quarians that sided with them. Were is that shown? That single Geth could have deactivated themselves seeing as in the codex it says the Geth are immortal so what would losing it's hardware be to save there lives? Quarians Laid down there lives to protect the Geth what did they Receive  in return for there actions from the Geth? They remembered them that's as bout as far as that goes tho.

Modifié par Iamjdr, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:38 .

[Obadiah]

You know, every so often a thread like this gets posted, and after examining the facts it becomes plainly obvious that the assertion is based on a personal bias, speculation, and/or is just a massive troll.

But since it is a direct insult (intentional or otherwise) to the favorite character of a lot of folks, Legion, so it always gets attention and responses.

Carry on.

[Meltemph]

You said we know for a fact that the Geth protected the quarians that sided with them. Were is that shown? That single Geth could have deactivated themselves seeing as in the codex it says the Geth are immortal so what would losing it's hardware be to save there lives? Quarians laud down there lives to protect the Geth what did they revive in return for there actions from the Geth? They remembered them that's as bout as far as that goes tho.

Because I'm basing it off what we were shown, not what could have been, maybe, possibly. BW showed the geth willing to give himself up to the Quarians, the Quarians(this is also important) kill him(Quarian) and destroyed the geth anyways(knowing that that wouldn't have destroyed the Geth). DeinonSlayer posted the codex taht talks about this, and since the Quarians created it, they would know about it.

Modifié par Meltemph, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:39 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

You said we know for a fact that the Geth protected the quarians that sided with them. Were is that shown? That single Geth could have deactivated themselves seeing as in the codex it says the Geth are immortal so what would losing it's hardware be to save there lives? Quarians laud down there lives to protect the Geth what did they revive in return for there actions from the Geth? They remembered them that's as bout as far as that goes tho.

Because I'm basing it off what we were shown, not what could have been, maybe, possibly. BW showed the geth willing to give himself up to the Quarians, the Quarians(this is also important) kill him(Quarian) and destroyed the geth anyways(knowing that that wouldn't have destroyed the Geth). DeinonSlayer posted the codex taht talks about this, and since the Quarians created it, they would know about it.

We also see Legion commit lies of omission, repeatedly. Nothing says that what we're shown in the consensus is the full story, or even real (the gun in Shepard's hands isn't).

Raan says that what is seen in the consensus doesn't match the Quarians' own records. There are two possible explanations for this:

1) The Quarian version of the story has changed over the centuries to leave out their more unsavory actions (a common tendency among organics)
2) The Geth showed you cherry-picked or outright fabricated footage to evoke sympathy (how did they get footage from on-board the retreating Migrant Fleet, anyway?)

Both of these could be true at the same time. The point is, we don't know. All we can do is piece it together the best we can with what information we have.

"The minds of both forms of life can be shaped. Organics require time and effort. For synthetics, the replacement of a data file is the only requirement."
~ Legion, A House Divided

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:53 .

[Iamjdr]

No your also making assumptions of what could have happened 300 years ago in a full scale war which the geth won btw off what you were shown in 3 clips of the Geth consensus that really only serve to tryin make the Geth look like the victimised good guys. Where are the parts in between the sniper rifle and the quarians fleeing?

[Meltemph]

 

We also see Legion commit lies of omission, repeatedly. Nothing says that what we're shown in the consensus is the full story, or even real (the gun in Shepard's hands isn't).

So you think Bioware pureposly showed us this to obfuscate the issue even more?  Also, his omissions are not lies.  Also, what we were seeing wasnt just "Leigon", but I'm sure you know that.  Point is, we dont know what happened, all we know is what we have been shown and told.

Raan says that what is see in the consensus doesn't match the Quarians' own records. There are two possible explanations for this:

The Geth "records" are from being there, the quarian records are based on the people from that era.  If you want to assume the Geth or the Quarians are lying, that is fine, but you shouldnt be basing your decisions, in game, based on "blind assumptions". 

1) The Quarian version of the story has changed over the centuries to leave out their more unsavory actions (a common tendency among organics)
2) The Geth showed you cherry-picked or outright fabricated footage to evoke sympathy (how did they get footage from on-board the retreating Migrant Fleet, anyway?)

Again, you are adding more to the plot/story to prove or create a different assertion.  Taking the story as it was given to us(in order) as intentional from bioware, all we know is that the history between the Geth and the Quarians are not near as simple as some try and make it to be.  Anything more then that is a guess.

Both of these could be true at the same time. The point is, we don't know. All we can do is piece it together the best we can with what information we have.

All you can do is take what we know(or more specifically dont know) and apply it to your decisions.  However, creating unprovable or unknownable scenario's then picking a decision based off this, instead of just what we know, is foolish.

No your also making assumptions of what could have happened 300 years ago in a full scale war which the geth won btw off what you were shown in 3 clips of the Geth consensus that really only serve to tryin make the Geth look like the victimised good guys. Where are the parts in between the sniper rifle and the quarians fleeing?

BW chose not to show it, you can read into the intentions there, but you cant have a knowlege base to come to a conclusion. Taht is my point though, that you seem to be missing.  I dont care if you agree with me, the point is, the information as is, is not enough to make an assumption about the implications of the Geth.

Modifié par Meltemph, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:55 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Meltemph wrote...

 

We also see Legion commit lies of omission, repeatedly. Nothing says that what we're shown in the consensus is the full story, or even real (the gun in Shepard's hands isn't).

So you think Bioware pureposly showed us this to obfuscate the issue even more?  Also, his omissions are not lies.  Also, what we were seeing wasnt just "Leigon", but I'm sure you know that.  Point is, we dont know what happened, all we know is what we have been shown and told.

They drop the idea in the player's head that they're still in the consensus after the mission (via Joker). We're supposed to think about these kinds of possibilities. After everything the Geth have done (and after what Legion said in the quote I included in my last post), I'm not going to blindly accept everything the Geth say without question.

Raan says that what is see in the consensus doesn't match the Quarians' own records. There are two possible explanations for this:

The Geth "records" are from being there, the quarian records are based on the people from that era.  If you want to assume the Geth or the Quarians are lying, that is fine, but you shouldnt be basing your decisions, in game, based on "blind assumptions".

So, you're saying I'm free to believe the Geth are lying, but not free to act on that belief?

1) The Quarian version of the story has changed over the centuries to leave out their more unsavory actions (a common tendency among organics)
2) The Geth showed you cherry-picked or outright fabricated footage to evoke sympathy (how did they get footage from on-board the retreating Migrant Fleet, anyway?)

Again, you are adding more to the plot/story to prove or create a different assertion.  Taking the story as it was given to us(in order) as intentional from bioware, all we know is that the history between the Geth and the Quarians are not near as simple as some try and make it to be.  Anything more then that is a guess.

Then why give Shepard multiple ways to react to Raan's surprise? Shepard doesn't have to believe what the Geth choose to show. As you said, it's not simple.

Both of these could be true at the same time. The point is, we don't know. All we can do is piece it together the best we can with what information we have.

All you can do is take what we know(or more specifically dont know) and apply it to your decisions.  However, creating unprovable or unknownable scenario's then picking a decision based off this, instead of just what we know, is foolish.

No your also making assumptions of what could have happened 300 years ago in a full scale war which the geth won btw off what you were shown in 3 clips of the Geth consensus that really only serve to tryin make the Geth look like the victimised good guys. Where are the parts in between the sniper rifle and the quarians fleeing?

BW chose not to show it, you can read into the intentions there, but you cant have a knowlege base to come to a conclusion. Taht is my point though, that you seem to be missing.  I dont care if you agree with me, the point is, the information as is, is not enough to make an assumption about the implications of the Geth.

Seems that the difference is, you give the Geth the benefit of the doubt in these issues. Others don't. Nothing in-game says we have to.

[legion999]

Because the Quarians kept firing. And as we know from Gerrel, young Quarians serve on militray ships. And they strapped guns to their CIVILIAN SHIPS AND SOURCES OF FOOD.