391 réponses à ce sujet

[CynicalShep]

Because synthetics are bad and organics are good
/sarcasm

[Kataphrut94]

Never have I seen a baitier topic title. Why is everyone so intent on demonising the geth lately when the game has clearly established that the two sides in that war are both dicks to a precisely equal degree? In the interest of moderation, it is supposed to be a gray and grey conflict, everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is no right or wrong answer...but we all know it's just residual bitterness over the the geth ruining the Destroy ending. Same reason people go to absurd lengths to criticise EDI for having the gall to actually develop as a character and become more than just a source of exposition.

As for the topic at hand - the geth did not deliberately wipe out quarian children or civillians out of malice. They struck back against the ships that were attacking them, which happened to include the civillian ships because Admiral 'Insanity' Gerrel and co decided sticking guns on farming and transport ships was a genius tactical decision. Yes, they could have let them go like last time, but that doesn't work if your enemy is refusing to retreat.

[Steelcan]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Never have I seen a baitier topic title. Why is everyone so intent on demonising the geth lately when the game has clearly established that the two sides in that war are both dicks to a precisely equal degree? In the interest of moderation, it is supposed to be a gray and grey conflict, everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is no right or wrong answer...but we all know it's just residual bitterness over the the geth ruining the Destroy ending. Same reason people go to absurd lengths to criticise EDI for having the gall to actually develop as a character and become more than just a source of exposition.

As for the topic at hand - the geth did not deliberately wipe out quarian children or civillians out of malice. They struck back against the ships that were attacking them, which happened to include the civillian ships because Admiral 'Insanity' Gerrel and co decided sticking guns on farming and transport ships was a genius tactical decision. Yes, they could have let them go like last time, but that doesn't work if your enemy is refusing to retreat.

If they killed most of the Quarian fleet people would try to retreat.  And the geth could let them, but they didnt because synthetics have no value for organic life.

[Kataphrut94]

Steelcan wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Never have I seen a baitier topic title. Why is everyone so intent on demonising the geth lately when the game has clearly established that the two sides in that war are both dicks to a precisely equal degree? In the interest of moderation, it is supposed to be a gray and grey conflict, everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is no right or wrong answer...but we all know it's just residual bitterness over the the geth ruining the Destroy ending. Same reason people go to absurd lengths to criticise EDI for having the gall to actually develop as a character and become more than just a source of exposition.

As for the topic at hand - the geth did not deliberately wipe out quarian children or civillians out of malice. They struck back against the ships that were attacking them, which happened to include the civillian ships because Admiral 'Insanity' Gerrel and co decided sticking guns on farming and transport ships was a genius tactical decision. Yes, they could have let them go like last time, but that doesn't work if your enemy is refusing to retreat.

If they killed most of the Quarian fleet people would try to retreat.  And the geth could let them, but they didnt because synthetics have no value for organic life.

Ah, but if you watch the scene where the geth win, you'll see that doesn't happen. The quarians never try to retreat, with Gerrel stupidly ordering for a "full barrage" after the initial attack fails. This keeps happening and they get subsequently cut down. Even if a few ships theoretically got out, the numbers would in all likelihood be so few that extinction would be almost inevitable.
 
Also, if they have no value for organic life then why did they A) put their faith in Shepard, an organic and let the quarians go at the end of the Morning War in the first place?

Modifié par Kataphrut94, 21 janvier 2013 - 07:45 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

They saw no alternative.

[Steelcan]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Ah, but if you watch the scene where the geth win, you'll see that doesn't happen. The quarians never try to retreat, with Gerrel stupidly ordering for a "full barrage" after the initial attack fails. This keeps happening and they get subsequently cut down. Even if a few ships theoretically got out, the numbers would in all likelihood be so few that extinction would be almost inevitable.
 
Also, if they have no value for organic life then why did they A) put their faith in Shepard, an organic and let the quarians go at the end of the Morning War in the first place?

1.  No choice in the matter.  It was trust Shepard or get wiped out.  Ironic if you end up picking destroy,
2.  They weren't sure about the implications of killing them off completely.  It wasn't mercy.  If they were capable of mercy I'm sure they would have shown it to the billions of quarians they butchered.

[Kataphrut94]

Steelcan wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Ah, but if you watch the scene where the geth win, you'll see that doesn't happen. The quarians never try to retreat, with Gerrel stupidly ordering for a "full barrage" after the initial attack fails. This keeps happening and they get subsequently cut down. Even if a few ships theoretically got out, the numbers would in all likelihood be so few that extinction would be almost inevitable.
 
Also, if they have no value for organic life then why did they A) put their faith in Shepard, an organic and let the quarians go at the end of the Morning War in the first place?

1.  No choice in the matter.  It was trust Shepard or get wiped out.  Ironic if you end up picking destroy,
2.  They weren't sure about the implications of killing them off completely.  It wasn't mercy.  If they were capable of mercy I'm sure they would have shown it to the billions of quarians they butchered.

1. They had every choice. Shepard only ever got involved because they specifically chose to go looking for him after he killed Sovereign, and Legion specifically chose to stay aboard the Normandy to assist with the Collector mission, and later with the Rannoch war. It's clear that they value Shepard's experiences and views in their own way. You can see during the quarians win ending where Legion desperately tries to convince Shepard before being forced to attack him.

2. The implications of exterminating the quarians does illustrate the geth's value of organic life. If they didn't value them, then they wouldn't have cared about the implications. You can't say "oh they killed a lot of quarians, therefore they don't value life", because they are clearly fighting to defend themselves from quarian aggressors. Henceforth, they spare the quarians when they retreat, and attack them when they don't. If they were as hostile to the quarians as you say, they wouldn't have tried to protect the quarians who sheltered them during the Morning War, nor would they be so eager to help them reacclimatise to Rannoch if peace can be brokered.

[Steelcan]

You should play with the Geth VI. He's not so cuddly as Legion. He doesn't event try to hide the fact that he hates quarians.

They were unsure=/= mercy. And their "self defense" entails butchering billions? Self defense stopped a ways back. Eventually the kept going for some reason, I don't think it was mercy

[Kataphrut94]

Steelcan wrote...

You should play with the Geth VI. He's not so cuddly as Legion. He doesn't event try to hide the fact that he hates quarians.

They were unsure=/= mercy. And their "self defense" entails butchering billions? Self defense stopped a ways back. Eventually the kept going for some reason, I don't think it was mercy

I am well aware of the distinction between Legion and the Geth VI. If I had the Geth VI in my playthrough, I would be less inclined to trust the geth as well, for much the same reason as I would be less inclined to trust Wreav over Wrex with the genophage cure. That's the inherit difficulty of arguing over plot elements in a non-linear story, but I've been under the assumption we've been discussing the best-case scenario where both sides have good representation.

The geth did keep attacking the quarians, but it's clear the quarians did not stand down either. That's pretty much the entire history between them- quarians attack, geth react and overpower them. In the case of the Morning War, that only ended with the quarians being driven from their homeworld in the Migrant Fleet. In the case of Mass Effect 3's war, that ends with the quarians successfully wiping the geth out, the geth being forced to wipe them out, or peace being brokered. Billions died, yes, but on both sides and the simple fact is that of the two sides, the quarians are always the aggressors. The final choice even illustrates this - if you convince the quarians to STOP shooting, then a truce happens instantaneously. You never have to convince the geth because they are already willing to stop the war if the quarians stand down.

Modifié par Kataphrut94, 21 janvier 2013 - 08:41 .

[Steelcan]

The difference is that in Peace you broadcast to the entire flotilla, in the other two you only speak to the admirals. Does the average Quarian know why they are being killed? No.

[silverexile17s]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Never have I seen a baitier topic title. Why is everyone so intent on demonising the geth lately when the game has clearly established that the two sides in that war are both dicks to a precisely equal degree? In the interest of moderation, it is supposed to be a gray and grey conflict, everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is no right or wrong answer...but we all know it's just residual bitterness over the the geth ruining the Destroy ending. Same reason people go to absurd lengths to criticise EDI for having the gall to actually develop as a character and become more than just a source of exposition.

As for the topic at hand - the geth did not deliberately wipe out quarian children or civillians out of malice. They struck back against the ships that were attacking them, which happened to include the civillian ships because Admiral 'Insanity' Gerrel and co decided sticking guns on farming and transport ships was a genius tactical decision. Yes, they could have let them go like last time, but that doesn't work if your enemy is refusing to retreat.

I never demonized the geth. That's not what I was saying.
What I said is that I don't like how the quarians were demonized in turn. You know damn well the "quarians are idiots and geth are abused and misunderstood" mentality was practally beaten over the head to everybody with. It was SUPPOSED to be gray on gray, but came out as "quarians: ignorant dicks. Geth: abused cherubs."
People should choose that mentality beacuse i';s the side they sympathise with. Not because the devs faovr a spicific side. If it's gray on gray, why does it seem to make you feel like saving the geth is the Paragon choice, and saving the quarians is the Renegade?

Both sides have blood on their hands. Both are guilty of failing to prevent this conflict. The quarians for being too agressive. The geth for being to sedentary.
And the writing for the Rannoch arc was BS in regards to the quarians motivations and characters. They steriotyped them all. Gerrel was the mad leader. Rann was the timid lieutennet. Koris was the advisor they all ignore. And Xen was the mad scientist. They all could have been written better, with Gerrel not being such a dick. Because he wasn't in ME2. In ME2, he was a military leader, who would have real justifacation, and beliefs that this is right. He would voice the reasons that the geth aren't innocent, and call their incations over the past 300 years. He would call them out on why, if they really didn't resent the quarians, did they never say anything. Or, even more important, why they did nothing to stop the Heretics, from froming, or from causing such damage.

The quarians in general weren't written well.
And AGAIN, they had no choice but to bring the liveships. The only other alternitive would have been to leave them behind. And since they needed every combat-ready ship, they would have been unable to leave any form of defense behind. Unarmed and alone in a galaxy swarming with Reapers and a now-crazed Cerberus?
It would have been a death warrent. Arming them and taking them to Ranncoh ensured that they would at least stay protected, and the quarians thought that with Xen's anti-synthetic tech that they could win easily.
So no, looking at their options, bringing and arming the liveships was the only option they had.

I mean, if the galaxy was going to hell in a hand-basket, I sure as hell would be putting guns on anything I could mount them on.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 janvier 2013 - 08:47 .

[silverexile17s]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Never have I seen a baitier topic title. Why is everyone so intent on demonising the geth lately when the game has clearly established that the two sides in that war are both dicks to a precisely equal degree? In the interest of moderation, it is supposed to be a gray and grey conflict, everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is no right or wrong answer...but we all know it's just residual bitterness over the the geth ruining the Destroy ending. Same reason people go to absurd lengths to criticise EDI for having the gall to actually develop as a character and become more than just a source of exposition.

As for the topic at hand - the geth did not deliberately wipe out quarian children or civillians out of malice. They struck back against the ships that were attacking them, which happened to include the civillian ships because Admiral 'Insanity' Gerrel and co decided sticking guns on farming and transport ships was a genius tactical decision. Yes, they could have let them go like last time, but that doesn't work if your enemy is refusing to retreat.

If they killed most of the Quarian fleet people would try to retreat.  And the geth could let them, but they didnt because synthetics have no value for organic life.

Ah, but if you watch the scene where the geth win, you'll see that doesn't happen. The quarians never try to retreat, with Gerrel stupidly ordering for a "full barrage" after the initial attack fails. This keeps happening and they get subsequently cut down. Even if a few ships theoretically got out, the numbers would in all likelihood be so few that extinction would be almost inevitable.
 
Also, if they have no value for organic life then why did they A) put their faith in Shepard, an organic and let the quarians go at the end of the Morning War in the first place?

I also remind you they did abso-friggen-lutly nothing to stop the rampant Heretics in ME1. Or even try to stop them from even leaving with Sovergien, despite knowing that organics would be harmed by this inaction.
They valued their own self-preservation and personal peace over that of organics.

[Kataphrut94]

Yes they do. They know they have been committed to an invasion of their homeworld as a result of the admirals decision. It's heavily implied by Admiral Koris that the civillians were not in favour of the war, but they clearly didn't have a choice. While they probably don't know about the Reaper code being uploaded at the end, they do know that they are being curb-stomped by the geth fleet and not being permitted to retreat.

The reason for that is very simple: the quarians fire, the geth fire back. The fact that the geth are a better fighting force and thus more likely to win during a conflict doesn't mean anything in regards to their morality.

[silverexile17s]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Ah, but if you watch the scene where the geth win, you'll see that doesn't happen. The quarians never try to retreat, with Gerrel stupidly ordering for a "full barrage" after the initial attack fails. This keeps happening and they get subsequently cut down. Even if a few ships theoretically got out, the numbers would in all likelihood be so few that extinction would be almost inevitable.
 
Also, if they have no value for organic life then why did they A) put their faith in Shepard, an organic and let the quarians go at the end of the Morning War in the first place?

1.  No choice in the matter.  It was trust Shepard or get wiped out.  Ironic if you end up picking destroy,
2.  They weren't sure about the implications of killing them off completely.  It wasn't mercy.  If they were capable of mercy I'm sure they would have shown it to the billions of quarians they butchered.

1. They had every choice. Shepard only ever got involved because they specifically chose to go looking for him after he killed Sovereign, and Legion specifically chose to stay aboard the Normandy to assist with the Collector mission, and later with the Rannoch war. It's clear that they value Shepard's experiences and views in their own way. You can see during the quarians win ending where Legion desperately tries to convince Shepard before being forced to attack him.

2. The implications of exterminating the quarians does illustrate the geth's value of organic life. If they didn't value them, then they wouldn't have cared about the implications. You can't say "oh they killed a lot of quarians, therefore they don't value life", because they are clearly fighting to defend themselves from quarian aggressors. Henceforth, they spare the quarians when they retreat, and attack them when they don't. If they were as hostile to the quarians as you say, they wouldn't have tried to protect the quarians who sheltered them during the Morning War, nor would they be so eager to help them reacclimatise to Rannoch if peace can be brokered.

It was simple mathmatics at the time. They didn't know the answer. They weren't advanced enough to have emotional responces back then. So that example falls flat in this.

[silverexile17s]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Yes they do. They know they have been committed to an invasion of their homeworld as a result of the admirals decision. It's heavily implied by Admiral Koris that the civillians were not in favour of the war, but they clearly didn't have a choice. While they probably don't know about the Reaper code being uploaded at the end, they do know that they are being curb-stomped by the geth fleet and not being permitted to retreat.

The reason for that is very simple: the quarians fire, the geth fire back. The fact that the geth are a better fighting force and thus more likely to win during a conflict doesn't mean anything in regards to their morality.

Only Shepard and his crew knew ANYTHING about the schisim between the geth. The quarians had no hard evidence beside word of mouth from Tali and Shepard.
And the last time the geth let the quarians leave, it bit them in the ass and cost them 300 years of work on the megastructure. They aren't going to repeat what was clearly a mistake, since it would likely end in the same way. The only way it ends is if the quarians are removed.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 janvier 2013 - 08:54 .

[Kataphrut94]

silverexile17s wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Never have I seen a baitier topic title. Why is everyone so intent on demonising the geth lately when the game has clearly established that the two sides in that war are both dicks to a precisely equal degree? In the interest of moderation, it is supposed to be a gray and grey conflict, everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is no right or wrong answer...but we all know it's just residual bitterness over the the geth ruining the Destroy ending. Same reason people go to absurd lengths to criticise EDI for having the gall to actually develop as a character and become more than just a source of exposition.

As for the topic at hand - the geth did not deliberately wipe out quarian children or civillians out of malice. They struck back against the ships that were attacking them, which happened to include the civillian ships because Admiral 'Insanity' Gerrel and co decided sticking guns on farming and transport ships was a genius tactical decision. Yes, they could have let them go like last time, but that doesn't work if your enemy is refusing to retreat.

I never demonized the geth. That's not what I was saying.
What I said is that I don't like how the quarians were demonized in turn. You know damn well the "quarians are idiots and geth are abused and misunderstood" mentality was practally beaten over the head to everybody with. It was SUPPOSED to be gray on gray, but came out as "quarians: ignorant dicks. Geth: abused cherubs."
People should choose that mentality beacuse i';s the side they sympathise with. Not because the devs faovr a spicific side. If it's gray on gray, why does it seem to make you feel like saving the geth is the Paragon choice, and saving the quarians is the Renegade?

Both sides have blood on their hands. Both are guilty of failing to prevent this conflict. The quarians for being too agressive. The geth for being to sedentary.
And the writing for the Rannoch arc was BS in regards to the quarians motivations and characters. They steriotyped them all. Gerrel was the mad leader. Rann was the timid lieutennet. Koris was the advisor they all ignore. And Xen was the mad scientist. They all could have been written better, with Gerrel not being such a dick. Because he wasn't in ME2. In ME2, he was a military leader, who would have real justifacation, and beliefs that this is right. He would voice the reasons that the geth aren't innocent, and call their incations over the past 300 years. He would call them out on why, if they really didn't resent the quarians, did they never say anything. Or, even more important, why they did nothing to stop the Heretics, from froming, or from causing such damage.

The quarians in general weren't written well.
And AGAIN, they had no choice but to bring the liveships. The only other alternitive would have been to leave them behind. And since they needed every combat-ready ship, they would have been unable to leave any form of defense behind. Unarmed and alone in a galaxy swarming with Reapers and a now-crazed Cerberus?
It would have been a death warrent. Arming them and taking them to Ranncoh ensured that they would at least stay protected, and the quarians thought that with Xen's anti-synthetic tech that they could win easily.
So no, looking at their options, bringing and arming the liveships was the only option they had.

I mean, if the galaxy was going to hell in a hand-basket, I sure as hell would be putting guns on anything I could mount them on.

What I object to is the notion that the geth murdered civillians when the civillian ships were among the group attacking them. It's a classic case of a double-standard and it looks as if you are trying to demonise the geth when what they did was easily justified. If the quarians thought they could win easily with Xen's upgrades, they had even less necessity to arm the ships. As EDI mentions, all it really does is make them a target which would have been ignored due to being tactically insignificant otherwise. Granted the geth probably would have attacked the ships when under Reaper control, but I assume we're talking about after the Reaper on Rannoch is destroyed they regain their free will.

[silverexile17s]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

You should play with the Geth VI. He's not so cuddly as Legion. He doesn't event try to hide the fact that he hates quarians.

They were unsure=/= mercy. And their "self defense" entails butchering billions? Self defense stopped a ways back. Eventually the kept going for some reason, I don't think it was mercy

I am well aware of the distinction between Legion and the Geth VI. If I had the Geth VI in my playthrough, I would be less inclined to trust the geth as well, for much the same reason as I would be less inclined to trust Wreav over Wrex with the genophage cure. That's the inherit difficulty of arguing over plot elements in a non-linear story, but I've been under the assumption we've been discussing the best-case scenario where both sides have good representation.

The geth did keep attacking the quarians, but it's clear the quarians did not stand down either. That's pretty much the entire history between them- quarians attack, geth react and overpower them. In the case of the Morning War, that only ended with the quarians being driven from their homeworld in the Migrant Fleet. In the case of Mass Effect 3's war, that ends with the quarians successfully wiping the geth out, the geth being forced to wipe them out, or peace being brokered. Billions died, yes, but on both sides and the simple fact is that of the two sides, the quarians are always the aggressors. The final choice even illustrates this - if you convince the quarians to STOP shooting, then a truce happens instantaneously. You never have to convince the geth because they are already willing to stop the war if the quarians stand down.

The Heretics sure as hell didn't give that opinion in ME1. They sure didn't need provication to unleash hell on Feros, Eden Prime, and the Citadel.  That was how the galaxy viewed them. There was no evidence of otherwise, besides the word of mouth from another geth. I doubt any quarian would take that as compeling evidence of geth senserity. Saying nothing for 300 years, then suddenly, they butcher thousands? THEN, a single geth comes out to say "we didn't support that"? You think anyone would trust the word of one geth, when thousands ravaged the Attacan Traverse and the Citadel just 2-3 years prior?

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 janvier 2013 - 08:59 .

[silverexile17s]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Never have I seen a baitier topic title. Why is everyone so intent on demonising the geth lately when the game has clearly established that the two sides in that war are both dicks to a precisely equal degree? In the interest of moderation, it is supposed to be a gray and grey conflict, everyone is entitled to their opinion and there is no right or wrong answer...but we all know it's just residual bitterness over the the geth ruining the Destroy ending. Same reason people go to absurd lengths to criticise EDI for having the gall to actually develop as a character and become more than just a source of exposition.

As for the topic at hand - the geth did not deliberately wipe out quarian children or civillians out of malice. They struck back against the ships that were attacking them, which happened to include the civillian ships because Admiral 'Insanity' Gerrel and co decided sticking guns on farming and transport ships was a genius tactical decision. Yes, they could have let them go like last time, but that doesn't work if your enemy is refusing to retreat.

I never demonized the geth. That's not what I was saying.
What I said is that I don't like how the quarians were demonized in turn. You know damn well the "quarians are idiots and geth are abused and misunderstood" mentality was practally beaten over the head to everybody with. It was SUPPOSED to be gray on gray, but came out as "quarians: ignorant dicks. Geth: abused cherubs."
People should choose that mentality beacuse i';s the side they sympathise with. Not because the devs faovr a spicific side. If it's gray on gray, why does it seem to make you feel like saving the geth is the Paragon choice, and saving the quarians is the Renegade?

Both sides have blood on their hands. Both are guilty of failing to prevent this conflict. The quarians for being too agressive. The geth for being to sedentary.
And the writing for the Rannoch arc was BS in regards to the quarians motivations and characters. They steriotyped them all. Gerrel was the mad leader. Rann was the timid lieutennet. Koris was the advisor they all ignore. And Xen was the mad scientist. They all could have been written better, with Gerrel not being such a dick. Because he wasn't in ME2. In ME2, he was a military leader, who would have real justifacation, and beliefs that this is right. He would voice the reasons that the geth aren't innocent, and call their incations over the past 300 years. He would call them out on why, if they really didn't resent the quarians, did they never say anything. Or, even more important, why they did nothing to stop the Heretics, from froming, or from causing such damage.

The quarians in general weren't written well.
And AGAIN, they had no choice but to bring the liveships. The only other alternitive would have been to leave them behind. And since they needed every combat-ready ship, they would have been unable to leave any form of defense behind. Unarmed and alone in a galaxy swarming with Reapers and a now-crazed Cerberus?
It would have been a death warrent. Arming them and taking them to Ranncoh ensured that they would at least stay protected, and the quarians thought that with Xen's anti-synthetic tech that they could win easily.
So no, looking at their options, bringing and arming the liveships was the only option they had.

I mean, if the galaxy was going to hell in a hand-basket, I sure as hell would be putting guns on anything I could mount them on.

What I object to is the notion that the geth murdered civillians when the civillian ships were among the group attacking them. It's a classic case of a double-standard and it looks as if you are trying to demonise the geth when what they did was easily justified. If the quarians thought they could win easily with Xen's upgrades, they had even less necessity to arm the ships. As EDI mentions, all it really does is make them a target which would have been ignored due to being tactically insignificant otherwise. Granted the geth probably would have attacked the ships when under Reaper control, but I assume we're talking about after the Reaper on Rannoch is destroyed they regain their free will.

HARDLY. I find it hard to believe that with how accurate the geth were, that they couldn't avoid hitting the liveships. The liveshisps were glass cannons. A few light hits would have disabled them, and they could have been let go. Instead, they obliterated them.
So, NO, it doesn't justify wiping out the civilian ships. It was the same overzelous and parinoia fuled self-preservation that led them to butcher millions in the Morning War. DenionSlayer even says he found out they used chemical warfare to push the quarians off their worlds. I doubt the situation was ever that desprate. And you can't say that driving the quarians off ALL their worlds was nessessary. They took several, and they lived in stations anyway, so there was noo need for more space. Why go all the way? It was obvious the quarians were no longer a threat. Why go further and take their homeworld?
It was unnessessary. And overzelous.
This isn't any justified reaction. They panicked and shot everything that could come back to get them. Simple as that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 janvier 2013 - 09:10 .

[Indy_S]

I'm sure the explanation for this is that while writing ME1, the focus was going to be on the BSG style Quarian fleet. The Geth were written to be dastardly, emotionless robots. This isn't the direction the writers wanted for ME2 and they were written to be a more compassionate, isolationist race. It's hard to reconcile some of the differences between the two and so BioWare made the decision to mumble over the old facts. The Geth destroyed 99% of the Quarians because it was said they did in ME1. The Geth shot down any attempt at communication because it was said they did in ME1. Neither of these gets acknowledged very strongly in the sequels.

[Sinophile]

Personally, I think that the Geth and Quarians were inspired by the Israeli-Palestine conflict, with Rannoch being the Holy Land. In the old testament, whenever the Jews conquered a new land, they'd murder everyone except the virgin girls, the logic behind this being that the children could rise up and avenge their fallen fathers when they grew older.
Likewise, the Geth realized that any living Quarian could pose a threat to their existence.

[78stonewobble]

It felt arbitrarily forced to me when taken to such an extreme.

Everything we sofar had learned about the geth was that, like everyone else, they wanted to survive. Self preservation.

Beyond that, the quality and type of life they wanted did not preclude coexistance with the Quarians. Either on Rannoch or with half a galaxy of space between them.

Also:

I'd just point out that when you elevate children to be somehow be worth more than other lives you, relatively, devalue others.

The same thing that allows soldiers to shoot enemy soldiers in war but further out the same line of thinking has been used to excuse genocide.

Life A is worth more than life B.

With somewhat arbitrary distinctions of what separates A from B. Religion, "soul"?, skin colour, income, age, sexual preference and what not.

[Jackal13th]

Dhoozy77 wrote...

It not like they could fight back being such on said glass canon. Once the heavy fleet was gone there were no reason to kill the children and hunt down every last quarian survivor.  It was hypocritcal of the geth to say " we regret the death of the creators" when clearly they could have spared some. 

i think it is like
 Septimus Magistos said  the Quarians fired first and the geth hunted no one down . in the game . .

[3DandBeyond]

silverexile17s wrote...

But the geth don't ever acknolodge that it was any failing of morals, or moment of weakness on their part. They never accept that they willingly chose that path. They blame the quarians for forcing that on them, in a conflict that they themselves could have prevented had the not been so isolated.

And as for timing, what else COULD they do? The galaxy was literally going to hell in a fraking hand-basket. No one was going to give then shelter or refuge, and they would eventually be pressed to fight the Reapers. If they did that with the civilian ships, it would have doomed them instantly, as the Reapers would have imediately gone after those ships.
It was desperation for their people. The same desperation that drove the geth to side with the Reapers. You can't begrudge one and not the other for the same action.

And again, if they didn't bring the Civilian Ships, they would have had to leave them unprotected in a galaxy being overrun by Reapers, since they needed every combat-ready ship to go to Rannoch, and thus, couldn't spare any ship to stay.
Leaving the liveships behind - THAT'S a damn mistake. At least this way, with Xen's supposed victory-sealing weapons, there was a high chance of winning. They would have their world back, and they could drop their people in right then and there, and send the now vaciant ships off to fight the Reapers with no worry.
And again, you misinterperted it. It's not using the ships that gets Koris in such a lather. He knew that bringing them was nessessary, since they can't afford to split the fleet when the entire galaxy is falling apart. He doesn't like it, but he knows it's nessessary.
What gets him upset is the refusal to retreat from the fight after it celarly turns against them. THAT was the mistake, NOT the liveships coming. They had no CHOICE in bringing the liveships.
It's not stupid. It's desperation.  You can't ignore how the geth fall into it by siding with the Reapers, while accusing the quarians of being in the wrong for it.

And the geth attacked the liveships because they were armed and shooting. The quarians armed them so that if the combat ships fell, the liveships wouldn't be defensless. The could also back up the other ships if things got tense.
The Reapers didn't NEED to order them - the attacked anything shooting on reflex.

Actually, in different conversations there are indications that the geth did admit their own culpability and they did have remorse for many of the things they did.  They also are the first to extend a hand and to try and welcome the quarians home when all is said and done.

Why do they have to admit they willingly chose to accept help from the reapers.  Who else was there and ready and willing to save them from extinction.  The geth asked for help from someone who was not actively at that time, trying to kill them.  However, the writers want you to end the game by getting help from someone who is in the process of actively killing you.  One makes sense, the other does not.

The geth were isolated so as not to be attacked and not to be confrontational.  They had already been attacked by people they figured should care about them, but that feared them.  What do you think they figured the rest of the galaxy would do?  You are saying the geth should have reached out and made friends of people that thought they were there to kill them.  No one trusted the geth and yet, the geth had been victims.  The quarians were trusted far more than the geth.  Who do you think the galaxy would determine to help?

So in the midst of a reaper invasion, the quarians attack the geth and did serious damage.  They decided while no one was looking to try and take back Rannoch, which if the galaxy is lost, is a foolish thing to do (just as all that everyone else wants is foolish).  They also risk a geth counter-attack that could leave them in no position to fight the reapers.  They threw the civilian ships into the mix-Admiral Koris says as much and is quite mad about it.  Later on, he gets mad that they did not withdraw them.  But when he and the other admirals first come on board the Normandy, he is quite angry that the civilian ships were put into the mix and used to fight alongside the military ones.  He says this.

Then, the geth are completely under reaper control.  The reapers saw that the geth might ask for their help, so they communicated with them and said they would help.  Yes, the geth accepted it.  But once they did, the reapers controlled them.  And then, the reaper-controlled geth started actively targeting mainly civilian targets.  That seems to indicate the reapers wanted them to, even though the civilian ships had been armed to dreadnought status.  The geth previously had not been mainly targeting them.  The game makes it very clear that the geth are under reaper control-it's said over and over again.  And it's clear that they are when Shepard enters the consensus.  You also learn in the consensus, that the geth never wanted to attack the quarians and Legion even says they were like children.  A kid that gets bullied will accept help from anyone, but can't control the help he gets.  He may accept the help of an even bigger bully out of desperation, and then he can't tell that bully to stop.  The game makes it clear that the active targeting of civilian ships mainly happens once the geth are under reaper control.  Prior to that the geth destroyed civilian ships that were in the mix with military ones.  They did shoot anything that was shooting at them.

[3DandBeyond]

silverexile17s wrote...

I also remind you they did abso-friggen-lutly nothing to stop the rampant Heretics in ME1. Or even try to stop them from even leaving with Sovergien, despite knowing that organics would be harmed by this inaction.
They valued their own self-preservation and personal peace over that of organics.

But they did try to do something in ME2 and it's clear that it's not because they did not disagree with the heretics-it's because they are ill-equipped to stop them.  The heretics were allowed to leave because that was their choice.

The geth were removed from events happening in the galaxy.  They didn't agree with the heretics ideas and the heretics had split from them.  Sovereign entered the picture and had told the heretics he could give them what they wanted.  At that time, were the true geth supposed to assume Sovereign had bad intent? The only thing we know that the reapers told the geth was that they would give them the knowledge they wanted, all of it, right away.  And then, later on were the geth supposed to just know everything that was happening?  Especially given that most of the galaxy was in denial about it and didn't see the threat.

No, they didn't stop the heretics from leaving with Sovereign, because they didn't know who Sovereign was or his real intent, and they allowed the heretics the free will to leave.  They let them make their own choices and Legion says this-they all wanted the same thing, but had different ideas how to get there.  Different paths to the same end. 

It is clear that once the true geth understand the situation and that the reapers are using the virus to try and infect all geth with bad intent, they try to assess what can be done.  Legion goes out to find Shepard and is wearing Shepard's armor which is kind of like his reminder of what needs to be done and who can help.  That armor kind of represents what the true geth want for themselves and who they believe in.  The reapers have left the virus which will turn all true geth into heretics who support the reapers.  But the geth can't stop this without help.  So of course they don't do anything about the heretics in ME1.  They had no idea what the reapers were all about, nor why they wanted the geth. 

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:39 .

[3DandBeyond]

silverexile17s wrote...

The Heretics sure as hell didn't give that opinion in ME1. They sure didn't need provication to unleash hell on Feros, Eden Prime, and the Citadel.  That was how the galaxy viewed them. There was no evidence of otherwise, besides the word of mouth from another geth. I doubt any quarian would take that as compeling evidence of geth senserity. Saying nothing for 300 years, then suddenly, they butcher thousands? THEN, a single geth comes out to say "we didn't support that"? You think anyone would trust the word of one geth, when thousands ravaged the Attacan Traverse and the Citadel just 2-3 years prior?

The heretics were then under control of the reapers.  That's what happens and it's the heretics under reaper control that are attacking people and skewering them on the dragon's teeth. 

It's almost identical to what happens in ME3.  The heretics were contacted by the reapers and were offered something they always wanted in ME1-full understanding and knowledge of organics, they wanted to become alive.  Sovereign offered that help.  The heretics accepted his offer.  But, his true intent only became clear once it was too late for the heretics to turn back.  The heretics were never evil or malicious in what they wanted.  Once they'd accepted the help, the reapers then began to control them and reaper intent was revealed, but the heretics couldn't refuse at that point.

In ME3, the quarians attack the geth and do serious damage.  That weakens the geth and scares the hell out of them.  There's no one to help them.  They are fighting back and destroy all ships shooting at them, because they are like a drowning man struggling to stay afloat.  Reapers offer help, they accept it.  Reapers control them then and target the civilian ships.  The game shows this happening in this order.

The heretics were under reaper control.  The geth that Shepard confronts in ME3 are under reaper control.  That's what the geth consensus mission was all about, getting rid of that control.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:49 .