391 réponses à ce sujet

[Ice Cold J]

xBLAKx Skytop wrote...


Liara states the the Quarians are extinct (Or have such little population that the will die out at the end of the generation.)

So what about the ones in the life pods?

They either hacked them to ensure that they would jam, stopping ANYONE from getting off the ship.

Or, they hunted down the landing zones, dragged them out, lined them up against the wall and shot them.

Both possibilites make me have absolutely no problem with killing the Geth, either on Rannoch or the Destroy ending.

And you're PERFECTLY fine with letting the Quarians live since they took EVERY opportunity possible to wipe the Geth out? Firing on the dreadnaught when Shep and Tali were aboard? Not retreating to recover when given the opportunity? Firing on the Geth if the code is interrupted?

It's either a lose-lose or win-win situation: either you save both, or you're left with potentially the most bloodthirsty race left in the galaxy.

[Iamjdr]

If a kid gets bullied and then goes and finds a murderer to help kill all the bullies how does that not make him worse then the bully? The Geth had 300 years to do anything to prove they were not hostile and they didnt even try, instead they did the exact opposite and killed anyone and everyone who came to close. Then they allowed let a small fraction of there people ( which is funny seeing as how we only ever meet 1 nice Geth platform and the rest are heretics I guess) terrorize the galaxy with out so much as making a peep. So if it wasn't for the fact that we randomly ran into legion on the derelict reaper we would never have known the Geth weren't anything more the MEU version of terminators. Maybe if the Geth actually excepted responsibility for there actions even once people might be more inclined to trust them. But constantly say no they were just defending themselves, oh that was the heretics not the true Geth, oh you made us dumber so we had to accept reaper code doesn't really help the I'm an evil killbot thing they have going. How is legion 1 Geth smart enough on his own to know that running to the reapers is bad but the rest of the Geth arnt I have heard multiple quarians that have stated the war was wrong and that they provoked the Geth to action in the first morning war.

[3DandBeyond]

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Yes they do. They know they have been committed to an invasion of their homeworld as a result of the admirals decision. It's heavily implied by Admiral Koris that the civillians were not in favour of the war, but they clearly didn't have a choice. While they probably don't know about the Reaper code being uploaded at the end, they do know that they are being curb-stomped by the geth fleet and not being permitted to retreat.

The reason for that is very simple: the quarians fire, the geth fire back. The fact that the geth are a better fighting force and thus more likely to win during a conflict doesn't mean anything in regards to their morality.

That's exactly it.  The geth's "fault" is that they are too capable.  It's like using a nuclear weapon to go fishing when all you want is to catch a few bass.  And it's furthermore like giving a two year old a nuclear weapon to go fishing for bass.  Legion says as much when he talks about the geth being in their infancy.  They are like children whose parents want to punish them for something they did not do, by killing them.  But the child is fully capable of fighting back-and the child does not know his own strength.

The issue here is that indeed the geth did at one point understand they had done something "wrong" or that they had gone too far, been too destructive, and they stopped.  They did not pursue the quarians at a point when they could easily have exterminated them.  The geth weren't and aren't perfect, but as a race they had remorse and cared.  The quarians only show that they are capable of that at the end of the Rannoch mission in ME3.  The quarians always saw the geth not only as dangerous, but as a mistake that got them ostracized by the other races.  So, some thought it best to let the geth live, some wanted them dead for revenge or because they had Rannoch, and others wanted to use them to learn how to make better weapons.  I think the balance of events constantly weighs heavily in the geth's favor.  They only wanted to live, but the quarians had a myriad of things they wanted which were all about the death of the geth.  And, in the end, it's the geth that decide to cooperate far sooner than the quarians do.

[3DandBeyond]

Iamjdr wrote...

If a kid gets bullied and then goes and finds a murderer to help kill all the bullies how does that not make him worse then the bully? The Geth had 300 years to do anything to prove they were not hostile and they didnt even try, instead they did the exact opposite and killed anyone and everyone who came to close. Then they allowed let a small fraction of there people ( which is funny seeing as how we only ever meet 1 nice Geth platform and the rest are heretics I guess) terrorize the galaxy with out so much as making a peep. So if it wasn't for the fact that we randomly ran into legion on the derelict reaper we would never have known the Geth weren't anything more the MEU version of terminators. Maybe if the Geth actually excepted responsibility for there actions even once people might be more inclined to trust them. But constantly say no they were just defending themselves, oh that was the heretics not the true Geth, oh you made us dumber so we had to accept reaper code doesn't really help the I'm an evil killbot thing they have going. How is legion 1 Geth smart enough on his own to know that running to the reapers is bad but the rest of the Geth arnt I have heard multiple quarians that have stated the war was wrong and that they provoked the Geth to action in the first morning war.

Well, you're phrasing it wrong.  If a kid's family is being murdered by killer bullies and the kid can't find any help but there's one person who offers it, how does that make him as bad as the original killer bullies?

The geth had isolated themselves.  And how do you prove that you are not hostile or a threat when the whole galaxy believes that you are, but also believes the ones you fought with are merely thieves and scavengers? 

Again, the true geth didn't "let" the heretics leave so they could terrorize the galaxy.  They let them leave because they believed Sovereign was going to give them what they all wanted.  The true geth wanted to earn their future.  The heretics were contacted by Sovereign and were told he would give them the future.  Once he controlled them, he made them start killing.  But that was not why they went with him or were allowed to leave.

The geth did accept responsibility for their part in the Morning Wars.  Their isolation is a part of their remorse.  And they had remorse beyond that.  The geth consensus mission shows a bit about the events that happened.  And Legion is not 1 geth.  He is many (over a thousand) within a remote platform.  The rest are not heretics.  And they didn't want to fight the quarians, either.  They could easily have destroyed every last quarian in the Morning War, but they stopped and had remorse.

Even Tali comes to accept that the geth that accepted help from the reapers really had no choice-that or extinction.  And the geth did not run to the reapers-the reapers offered them help.  Yes, it was foolish to accept, but not stupid on its face.  You're faced with extinction.  Someone that is not trying to kill you offers to help and that "person" is the only one right now that can help you.  Do you accept?  At the end of the game, the being that is trying to kill you, offers to help and many accept that "help", but now it's wrong for the geth to accept help from someone that is not trying to kill them?


The funny thing is it is apparent the geth always were preparing for the quarians to return to Rannoch.  They were repairing its ecology and cultivating farmland.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 janvier 2013 - 05:23 .

[Iamjdr]

I said 1 platform, and if you don't try then what does it matter I you want peace if you won't put forth the effort necessary? If a Geth platform dies the Geth is still alive so what would stop the Geth from sending peace emissaries not like they could get hurt if it didn't work out right?

[jkflipflopDAO]

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that the Reapers didn't put some sort of "back door" in the Geth upgrade code. Especially since Sovereign had years of practice tinkering on the Geth. . . all his knowledge and findings would have been copied to the entire fleet.

It almost feels like the Reapers just gave them free upgrades with no strings attached. "But Shep killed the reaper on Rannoch!" - it doesn't matter because the reapers communicate via quantum channels. . . when one of them knows something they ALL know that something.

[3DandBeyond]

Iamjdr wrote...

I said 1 platform, and if you don't try then what does it matter I you want peace if you won't put forth the effort necessary? If a Geth platform dies the Geth is still alive so what would stop the Geth from sending peace emissaries not like they could get hurt if it didn't work out right?

Yes, it was one platform, but it represented more than a thousand geth, so its an error to say that they'd only met one peaceful geth.  In fact, it becomes very clear that the geth only ever wanted one thing; to be alive.  That was their sin.  They didn't try to attack quarians, did not rebel.  They used what they had been given by the quarians.  In fact, there is much that indicates that the geth were ashamed at how badly they had hurt their creators.  And then they have shame for those that under reaper control hurt others.  Shepard notices this in Legion when he can't admit he too was compromised by the reaper upgrades.  It is very likely the geth retreated due to pain at being rejected (or the equivalent of it that they could "feel"), fear, and shame.  The also were trying to preserve and fix the planet for the day their creators would return.  The geth wanted to be like their creators.  They were like children.  They didn't want to hurt them, but were forced to.  Imagine what that could do to someone, but especially to someone who is not equipped at all to deal with it.

If the geth had done what you suggest and tried to make contact with others, there also likely was the fear of having to hurt other people.  The heretics are another matter since they were under reaper control-but that also shows the true geth the kind of things people will think about them, that they are just killer robots.

Imagine that the geth come running out of hiding and all that people know is the quarian side of events.  The geth fly out and people start running away.  The geth try to make contact-people will fear it's aggression.  Someone starts shooting; the geth shoot back.  Look at the mistrust Legion was confronted with-no one but Shepard believed him and he had helped save Shepard on the derelict reaper.  Nothing the geth could do would have been enough to convince the galaxy they wanted to help or be friends, and the geth lacked the ability to make that clear, to make friends.

The geth would be like someone who only speaks French, trying to become friends with others that only speak English and who think they are trying to kill everyone.  Nothing the geth did would work.  And they risked having the whole galaxy come after them and destroy them.  Remember, the quarians were breaking the rules or law of the galaxy by creating them in the first place.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 janvier 2013 - 05:36 .

[Dragoonlordz]

MegaSovereign wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

If I was a Quarian I wouldn't let no damn toaster take my home. I'd go down fighting.

Considering how close to humanity the Quarians are, I'm sure they shared the same attitude.

So the geth were right to destroy the quarians then?

MegaSovereign wrote...
The current-generation Quarians are being punished for something that their ancestors did. That doesn't seem very fair.

Punished by whom? The geth aren't punishing anyone. They just don't want to die. The quarians want them to die. This is an obvious conflict of interest.

They're being punished by the fact that they don't have a homeworld.

The Geth don't have to live on Rannoch. They can literally live anywhere and be isolated. On the otherhand it be harder for Quarians to find a new homeworld because of their immune systems. 

It is possible however for them to live on a new homeworld it would just take time to adapt for Qurians. The reality is Quarian care more about land than do about lives of a species. Just like most wars in this world are over who owns what land, who controls what land. The Quarians started the war with the Geth, they lost that war and were allowed to leave provided did not come back, they should of left and founded a new homeworld which they could of done and my Shepard asked them to do many times instead of continuing their one sided war with the Geth as the Geth did not want war with Quarians.

The Geth were not actively hunting them down, for the most part they just wanted to be left alone. Quarians are doing what Catalyst does, assuming that in future something might happen which may never even happen and acting on it as far as the excuse that Geth might be a problem in the future. Quarians are akin to the Leviathans in idiology, the think there is a possible problem that might happen so given time I bet they would of created another Catalyst. I let the Quarians live in my playthrough but I might come to regret that since I now think they are not that different in how they view AI as Leviathans once did. Having let them live there may be a Catalyst 2.0 in future.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 21 janvier 2013 - 06:06 .

[Ice Cold J]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...
It's either a lose-lose or win-win situation: either you save both, or you're left with potentially the most bloodthirsty race left in the galaxy.

:lol:

Yeah, I now realize how STUPID that line was... 

But I think the other part of my argument was pretty valid.

[Iamjdr]

I dunno it just sounds like making excuses not to tryin make peace when your basically immortal what's the harm in reaching out? And when the council did reach out to try peace talks the geth slaughtered them. And when does  heretics are under te reapers control the while time? it was said by legion that they chise to leave and follow the reapers and the geth allowed it. they worshiped the reapers as gods there was no need to control them directly.

Modifié par Iamjdr, 21 janvier 2013 - 06:26 .

[Massa FX]

I went with destroy so no more Geth. However, I am positive Admiral Xen is going to cobble together a new Geth race.... because she can. The quarians will repeat history because, IMO, they are selfish and arrogant and lack moral compass. Raan and Tali are exceptions... but somewhat useless in their ability to sway the other Admirals.

The Quarians will prolly be their own Harbinger of destruction given time. Same for the Krogan, once Wrex and Bakara are assassinated.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Ice Cold J wrote...

xBLAKx Skytop wrote...


Liara states the the Quarians are extinct (Or have such little population that the will die out at the end of the generation.)

So what about the ones in the life pods?

They either hacked them to ensure that they would jam, stopping ANYONE from getting off the ship.

Or, they hunted down the landing zones, dragged them out, lined them up against the wall and shot them.

Both possibilites make me have absolutely no problem with killing the Geth, either on Rannoch or the Destroy ending.

And you're PERFECTLY fine with letting the Quarians live since they took EVERY opportunity possible to wipe the Geth out? Firing on the dreadnaught when Shep and Tali were aboard? Not retreating to recover when given the opportunity? Firing on the Geth if the code is interrupted?

It's either a lose-lose or win-win situation: either you save both, or you're left with potentially the most bloodthirsty race left in the galaxy.

The batarians, krogan, and vorcha would like a word with you.

[shodiswe]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

SeptimusMagistos wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...
The current-generation Quarians are being punished for something that their ancestors did. That doesn't seem very fair.

Punished by whom? The geth aren't punishing anyone. They just don't want to die. The quarians want them to die. This is an obvious conflict of interest.

The Quarians didn't even try to use diplomacy. They just showed up guns blazing. Considering that both sides could've come out strong if this was the case, it's funny that it's never tried.

Tali did. Legion severed communication.

If I were Shepard, the first order of business after the Collector base would have been to take Legion back to the Migrant Fleet and get this crap ironed out. Instead, both parties return to their respective sides of the fence and let the problem fester until the Reapers showed up.

Legion didnt "intentionaly" sever communications... His people shackled him after the Quarrians attacked. Probably because they were "concerned" about this "Quarrian Lover" who keept bringing peace communiques from the Quarrians when they were obviously preparing an attack. They also wanted to make use of Legions Upgrades, however they shackled Legions ability to communicate and take actions..
If you bring EDI she will comment on how strange it is for a synthetic race to shackle one of their own.
One reason could be that the Reapers watned to control Legion and Legion proved "uncontrolable" the reapers lacked the knowledge and capacity to hack Legion, so they used more Crude methods to handle the problem.

[DeinonSlayer]

Shoddy, is there a reason you can't spell "Quarians" correctly?

And for the record, Legion severed contact before the Quarian invasion, not in response to it. It seems to me that, while the Quarians were deciding whether to attack the Geth, the Geth were deciding which side to fight for. The Reaper invasion prompted the Quarians to go to war, which in turn prompted the Geth to turn to the Reapers.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 21 janvier 2013 - 06:57 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Because they didn't want to repeat the mistake they did 300 years ago.

[shodiswe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

I said 1 platform, and if you don't try then what does it matter I you want peace if you won't put forth the effort necessary? If a Geth platform dies the Geth is still alive so what would stop the Geth from sending peace emissaries not like they could get hurt if it didn't work out right?

Yes, it was one platform, but it represented more than a thousand geth, so its an error to say that they'd only met one peaceful geth.  In fact, it becomes very clear that the geth only ever wanted one thing; to be alive.  That was their sin.  They didn't try to attack quarians, did not rebel.  They used what they had been given by the quarians.  In fact, there is much that indicates that the geth were ashamed at how badly they had hurt their creators.  And then they have shame for those that under reaper control hurt others.  Shepard notices this in Legion when he can't admit he too was compromised by the reaper upgrades.  It is very likely the geth retreated due to pain at being rejected (or the equivalent of it that they could "feel"), fear, and shame.  The also were trying to preserve and fix the planet for the day their creators would return.  The geth wanted to be like their creators.  They were like children.  They didn't want to hurt them, but were forced to.  Imagine what that could do to someone, but especially to someone who is not equipped at all to deal with it.

If the geth had done what you suggest and tried to make contact with others, there also likely was the fear of having to hurt other people.  The heretics are another matter since they were under reaper control-but that also shows the true geth the kind of things people will think about them, that they are just killer robots.

Imagine that the geth come running out of hiding and all that people know is the quarian side of events.  The geth fly out and people start running away.  The geth try to make contact-people will fear it's aggression.  Someone starts shooting; the geth shoot back.  Look at the mistrust Legion was confronted with-no one but Shepard believed him and he had helped save Shepard on the derelict reaper.  Nothing the geth could do would have been enough to convince the galaxy they wanted to help or be friends, and the geth lacked the ability to make that clear, to make friends.

The geth would be like someone who only speaks French, trying to become friends with others that only speak English and who think they are trying to kill everyone.  Nothing the geth did would work.  And they risked having the whole galaxy come after them and destroy them.  Remember, the quarians were breaking the rules or law of the galaxy by creating them in the first place.

This is why the Geth couldn
t leave the Quarrian homeworld, the Galaxy is divided among the "Organic" races that are part of or who has made contact with the citadel races, even the terminous is said to contain several species that arn't part of the current mass effect game universe. But there is one thing in common, if the citadel species would start collonizing or capturing or enter the terminous with a national military force they would attack. If the Geth collonized then I think they would see that as a hostile action aswell.
Volus and Hanar have to negotiate for years to aquire the rights to collonize worlds in human or Asari space.
How easy do you think it would be for the Geth to ask for the right to collonize human controled space? or that of any other species? Let alone establish peaceful contact?
Also for a Geth to survive getting Shot at it needs a nearby server or alternative platform to retreat to before "dying" if none is available they die permanently.
Also Legion who became selfaware apparently died from trying to transfer it's programming. Maybe "future" geth will be more mortal and bound by their platforms.

[3DandBeyond]

Iamjdr wrote...

I dunno it just sounds like making excuses not to tryin make peace when your basically immortal what's the harm in reaching out? And when the council did reach out to try peace talks the geth slaughtered them. And when does  heretics are under te reapers control the while time? it was said by legion that they chise to leave and follow the reapers and the geth allowed it. they worshiped the reapers as gods there was no need to control them directly.

The geth are like a huge child.  They weren't gifted with being able to broker peace or to work with people.  It's not an excuse to be afraid-it's real.  When did the council ever reach out to the geth?

The heretics were just geth that wanted to quickly become alive.  The reapers contacted them-Sovereign did and offered to give that to them.  So, they left the geth and the true geth let them go-both true geth and heretics wanted the same thing, but the true geth wanted to work for it.  The heretics wanted it now.  Once Sovereign had heretic followers, he controlled them.  They chose to leave but once they did they were under Sovereign's control.  The reaper virus is an indication of control.  And yes, they worshipped Sovereign as a god, and him using that is a form of control too.  Especially since Sovereign didn't much care for the geth.

[3DandBeyond]

Massa FX wrote...

I went with destroy so no more Geth. However, I am positive Admiral Xen is going to cobble together a new Geth race.... because she can. The quarians will repeat history because, IMO, they are selfish and arrogant and lack moral compass. Raan and Tali are exceptions... but somewhat useless in their ability to sway the other Admirals.

The Quarians will prolly be their own Harbinger of destruction given time. Same for the Krogan, once Wrex and Bakara are assassinated.

Thing is the game makes it clear that there were failures and successes on both sides.  The quarians started the whole thing and do show a fair lack of willingness to accept responsibility.  I think this is partly because they fear how bad that all would be for them in the galaxy.  It's bad enough already and they are the insular society, as much set apart from the galaxy as the geth are.

In the consensus mission Shepard sees bits about the past.  Quarians that tried to help the geth are just gone.  Geth picked up weapons and fought to protect weaker geth and then were almost afraid when left alone-creators that helped were dead or just gone.  It shows one in particular calling for his creator and sounding almost afraid and then he's killed.  They are like children.  They have no on to teach them how to walk and talk and to teach them what not to do.  They have to learn by doing and sure they make terrible mistakes.  And none of the organics in the galaxy do?  How many Batarians actually try to become part of the galactic community?  How well have the Turians and Salarians treated other races?  How about the Asari that seem to just look at other races as the repositories of genetic material that they can use?  And, humans-so far the human attempts have all been geared to waving their arms and jumping up and down, and saying "I'm human, that makes me important".  And Cerberus. 

So, now the geth are supposed to be the "adults" in the galaxy?

[Reorte]

Ice Cold J wrote...

And you're PERFECTLY fine with letting the Quarians live since they took EVERY opportunity possible to wipe the Geth out? Firing on the dreadnaught when Shep and Tali were aboard? Not retreating to recover when given the opportunity? Firing on the Geth if the code is interrupted?

It's either a lose-lose or win-win situation: either you save both, or you're left with potentially the most bloodthirsty race left in the galaxy.

Certain quarian leaders did. The civilian fleet, which is presumably the majority of the population, were against the war. Over the last several months I've often seen the quarians condemned due to what their leadership does, an attitude all too often used to justify all sorts of atrocities that happen in the world today.

[DeinonSlayer]

3DandBeyond wrote...

When did the council ever reach out to the geth?

Mass Effect: Revelation, page 116:

“The quarians had neither the numbers nor the ability to stand against their former servants. In a short but savage war their entire society was wiped out. Only a few million survivors-less than one percent of their entire population-escaped the genocide, fleeing their home world in a massive fleet, refugees forced to live in exile.

In the aftermath of the war, the geth became a completely isolationist society. Cutting off all contact with the organic species of the galaxy, they expanded their territory into the unexplored regions behind a vast nebulae cloud known as the Perseus Veil. Every attempt to open diplomatic channels with them failed: emissary vessels sent to open negotiations were attacked and destroyed the moment they entered geth space.

Fleets from every species in Citadel space massed on the borders of the Veil as the Council prepared for a massive geth invasion. But the expected attack never came. Gradually the fleets were scaled back, until now, several centuries after the quarians were driven out, only a few patrols remained to monitor the region for signs of geth aggression.”

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 21 janvier 2013 - 07:25 .

[Iamjdr]

The Geth are 300 year old supercomputers that pool and share knowledge collectively, they arnt like children. They have been monitoring us for that entire time alsoAnd I believe it was tali in me1 that said every attempt to send peace emmisarries thru the Perseus veil ended with everyone dying. I gotta look for the quote. But regardless you don't try to be peaceful for 300 years then wonder why noone wants to trust you.

[Iamjdr]

Oops my mistake it's wasn't tali thanks for clearing that up Deinon Slayer

[DeinonSlayer]

Iamjdr wrote...

Oops my mistake it's wasn't tali thanks for clearing that up Deinon Slayer

No problem. I think you're referring to the elevator conversation in ME1:

"The Geth killed billions and drove us from our homeworld. Most Quarians believe we have paid adequately for our mistake."

It's been noted by others on this thread that Bioware decided to mumble about this aspect of the story in subsequent titles. The Tuchanka arc did a far better job of presenting both sides of the story. What was really missing was an opportunity to question Gerrel about why the Quarians are doing this. We get to hear Victus tell us about the Krogan asteroid-bombing Turian colonies. Why, in ME3, do we never hear the Quarian side of the story? New players would be completely unaware that this counter-genocide took place. You'd have to dig through the codex to begin to get a balanced perspective.

[Iamjdr]

But we do see the bad side of the quarians in the war through the consensus mission, the only problem with that is the consensus didn't show anything bad the the Geth did. If the Geth think what the quarians did was bad why didn't he show me how that Geth saved the other geth with the sniper rifle. Or anything prior to the quarians fleeing thier homeworlds en mass.