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[silverexile17s]

3DandBeyond wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

But the geth don't ever acknolodge that it was any failing of morals, or moment of weakness on their part. They never accept that they willingly chose that path. They blame the quarians for forcing that on them, in a conflict that they themselves could have prevented had the not been so isolated.

And as for timing, what else COULD they do? The galaxy was literally going to hell in a fraking hand-basket. No one was going to give then shelter or refuge, and they would eventually be pressed to fight the Reapers. If they did that with the civilian ships, it would have doomed them instantly, as the Reapers would have imediately gone after those ships.
It was desperation for their people. The same desperation that drove the geth to side with the Reapers. You can't begrudge one and not the other for the same action.

And again, if they didn't bring the Civilian Ships, they would have had to leave them unprotected in a galaxy being overrun by Reapers, since they needed every combat-ready ship to go to Rannoch, and thus, couldn't spare any ship to stay.
Leaving the liveships behind - THAT'S a damn mistake. At least this way, with Xen's supposed victory-sealing weapons, there was a high chance of winning. They would have their world back, and they could drop their people in right then and there, and send the now vaciant ships off to fight the Reapers with no worry.
And again, you misinterperted it. It's not using the ships that gets Koris in such a lather. He knew that bringing them was nessessary, since they can't afford to split the fleet when the entire galaxy is falling apart. He doesn't like it, but he knows it's nessessary.
What gets him upset is the refusal to retreat from the fight after it celarly turns against them. THAT was the mistake, NOT the liveships coming. They had no CHOICE in bringing the liveships.
It's not stupid. It's desperation.  You can't ignore how the geth fall into it by siding with the Reapers, while accusing the quarians of being in the wrong for it.

And the geth attacked the liveships because they were armed and shooting. The quarians armed them so that if the combat ships fell, the liveships wouldn't be defensless. The could also back up the other ships if things got tense.
The Reapers didn't NEED to order them - the attacked anything shooting on reflex.

Actually, in different conversations there are indications that the geth did admit their own culpability and they did have remorse for many of the things they did.  They also are the first to extend a hand and to try and welcome the quarians home when all is said and done.

Why do they have to admit they willingly chose to accept help from the reapers.  Who else was there and ready and willing to save them from extinction.  The geth asked for help from someone who was not actively at that time, trying to kill them.  However, the writers want you to end the game by getting help from someone who is in the process of actively killing you.  One makes sense, the other does not.

The geth were isolated so as not to be attacked and not to be confrontational.  They had already been attacked by people they figured should care about them, but that feared them.  What do you think they figured the rest of the galaxy would do?  You are saying the geth should have reached out and made friends of people that thought they were there to kill them.  No one trusted the geth and yet, the geth had been victims.  The quarians were trusted far more than the geth.  Who do you think the galaxy would determine to help?

So in the midst of a reaper invasion, the quarians attack the geth and did serious damage.  They decided while no one was looking to try and take back Rannoch, which if the galaxy is lost, is a foolish thing to do (just as all that everyone else wants is foolish).  They also risk a geth counter-attack that could leave them in no position to fight the reapers.  They threw the civilian ships into the mix-Admiral Koris says as much and is quite mad about it.  Later on, he gets mad that they did not withdraw them.  But when he and the other admirals first come on board the Normandy, he is quite angry that the civilian ships were put into the mix and used to fight alongside the military ones.  He says this.

Then, the geth are completely under reaper control.  The reapers saw that the geth might ask for their help, so they communicated with them and said they would help.  Yes, the geth accepted it.  But once they did, the reapers controlled them.  And then, the reaper-controlled geth started actively targeting mainly civilian targets.  That seems to indicate the reapers wanted them to, even though the civilian ships had been armed to dreadnought status.  The geth previously had not been mainly targeting them.  The game makes it very clear that the geth are under reaper control-it's said over and over again.  And it's clear that they are when Shepard enters the consensus.  You also learn in the consensus, that the geth never wanted to attack the quarians and Legion even says they were like children.  A kid that gets bullied will accept help from anyone, but can't control the help he gets.  He may accept the help of an even bigger bully out of desperation, and then he can't tell that bully to stop.  The game makes it clear that the active targeting of civilian ships mainly happens once the geth are under reaper control.  Prior to that the geth destroyed civilian ships that were in the mix with military ones.  They did shoot anything that was shooting at them.

Not really. They don't seem to regret sacrificing "finding their own path" for the Reaper upgrades. And from what we see, only Legion ever spoke of this. And it didn't stop them from wiping out the quarian fleet when they had the chance.
Besides, just saying your sorry about commiting genocide, even if you really do mean it, doesn't reverse the act itself. And they never once acknolodge that the genocide was in any way their choice, regarding the lengths they went to. I can sympathise with being forced into self-defence. But forced into genocide? Little bit steep of a price. Espceally given how overzelous the geth were in the Morning War. You don't kill millions, perhaps billions, or launch retalitory strikes against worlds you don't have immedieat need for, souly out of self-defence.

And had the geth at least tried to reach out, it would have been better. Even if nobody believed them, it at least would have been a start at open diolouges with each-other, and at least people would know that the geth could be talked to.
I mean, the geth say they harbor no hate to the quairans. Hell, Legion even says the quarians are justified to hate them, souly because the geth still hold Rannoch. But how was anyone supposed to know this? Especally after the Heretic attack on the Citadel? Or the bloody swaith the carved through the Attican Traverse (Feros, Eden Prime, Therrum, Noveria, Virmire)? Hell, a warrning about the Heretics would have helped their case. Insetead they just sat back and letthe Heretics go killing.
Had they not be completely isolated for 300 years, the geth wouldn't have lilely been in that friendless position.

Yes he's angry they are fighting. NOT because thy were brought along. Again, there was no choice in that matter. The fleet is interdependant on each-other for fuel and supplies/storage. They cannot be split up.
The quarians were forced into useing the Civilian ships alongside the combat ships only after the Reapers took over the geth. Otherwise, the civilian ships would have never needed to be directly involved.
And look at Xen's weapons. It was capable of blinding the geth. They thought they could march in and win.

And again, incorrect.
EDI says that every ship that was armed was considered a target. Raan says that the civilian ships were retrofitted with the weapons prior to the invasion. That means that they were considered target well before the Reapers ever took control. The proof is also in the "geth destroyes quarians" ending for Rannoch, where, even free from Reaper control, they don't hesitata to obliterate the liveships.
Every ship was armed. There was therefore no distinction between civilian and combat ship to the geth. Therefore, they were attacking those ships of their own free will long before the Reapers came in.
And even when, thanks to Legion's upgardes, they are made capable of realizing the difference, they STILL don't hesitate to plow through the liveships.

[silverexile17s]

3DandBeyond wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I also remind you they did abso-friggen-lutly nothing to stop the rampant Heretics in ME1. Or even try to stop them from even leaving with Sovergien, despite knowing that organics would be harmed by this inaction.
They valued their own self-preservation and personal peace over that of organics.

But they did try to do something in ME2 and it's clear that it's not because they did not disagree with the heretics-it's because they are ill-equipped to stop them.  The heretics were allowed to leave because that was their choice.

The geth were removed from events happening in the galaxy.  They didn't agree with the heretics ideas and the heretics had split from them.  Sovereign entered the picture and had told the heretics he could give them what they wanted.  At that time, were the true geth supposed to assume Sovereign had bad intent? The only thing we know that the reapers told the geth was that they would give them the knowledge they wanted, all of it, right away.  And then, later on were the geth supposed to just know everything that was happening?  Especially given that most of the galaxy was in denial about it and didn't see the threat.

No, they didn't stop the heretics from leaving with Sovereign, because they didn't know who Sovereign was or his real intent, and they allowed the heretics the free will to leave.  They let them make their own choices and Legion says this-they all wanted the same thing, but had different ideas how to get there.  Different paths to the same end. 

It is clear that once the true geth understand the situation and that the reapers are using the virus to try and infect all geth with bad intent, they try to assess what can be done.  Legion goes out to find Shepard and is wearing Shepard's armor which is kind of like his reminder of what needs to be done and who can help.  That armor kind of represents what the true geth want for themselves and who they believe in.  The reapers have left the virus which will turn all true geth into heretics who support the reapers.  But the geth can't stop this without help.  So of course they don't do anything about the heretics in ME1.  They had no idea what the reapers were all about, nor why they wanted the geth. 

Wrong. They didn't do anything until there was a threat to them. And if you were right, and organic preservation was such a high priroity to them, they would never have allowed the Heretics to leave.

And that doesn't matter. They keep sayin they ment no harm to organics, yet Legion clearly states they knew the Heretics reasons and goals. They knew what the Heretics would do, and still let them leave. And they didn't even take responcibilaty for having created the Heretics. brushing off the attacks on the Traverse and the Citadel as "not their problem."
The Alliance was proactive about their rouge group Cerberus. I don't see why the geth get a free pass to sherk that responcibilaty, until it's convienint for them to acknolodge.

And that seems to run counter to what Legion says. It seems more like Sovergien offered everything on it's plan to them, and then offered them the choice. Otherwise, how else would the overly-isolated geth be so aware of Sovergien's goals without having access to the classified reports from the Citadel?
They knew full well what Sovergien was (a Reaper) and what it would do. They wanted no part of it, but yet were content to sit back behind the Veil while the extinction of the galaxy took place, and stay safe, confident they could prep themselves alone to survive. Self-preservation has always been a dominating trait of the geth. If it comes down to a choice between them all living, and everything else, the galaxy could burn for all they cared.
That only changed when Shepard made contact with Legion, and showed them organics could be talked to without shooting on sight.
However, I find it strange that armed with this information, Shepard didn't ride into the Veil imeedatedly after the Sucide Mission, and try to broker with the geth to make contact with the other races, to at the very least, set up the groudwork for delegations. It would have prevented a lot of damage in the long run.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 janvier 2013 - 08:46 .

[silverexile17s]

3DandBeyond wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The Heretics sure as hell didn't give that opinion in ME1. They sure didn't need provication to unleash hell on Feros, Eden Prime, and the Citadel.  That was how the galaxy viewed them. There was no evidence of otherwise, besides the word of mouth from another geth. I doubt any quarian would take that as compeling evidence of geth senserity. Saying nothing for 300 years, then suddenly, they butcher thousands? THEN, a single geth comes out to say "we didn't support that"? You think anyone would trust the word of one geth, when thousands ravaged the Attacan Traverse and the Citadel just 2-3 years prior?

The heretics were then under control of the reapers.  That's what happens and it's the heretics under reaper control that are attacking people and skewering them on the dragon's teeth. 

It's almost identical to what happens in ME3.  The heretics were contacted by the reapers and were offered something they always wanted in ME1-full understanding and knowledge of organics, they wanted to become alive.  Sovereign offered that help.  The heretics accepted his offer.  But, his true intent only became clear once it was too late for the heretics to turn back.  The heretics were never evil or malicious in what they wanted.  Once they'd accepted the help, the reapers then began to control them and reaper intent was revealed, but the heretics couldn't refuse at that point.

In ME3, the quarians attack the geth and do serious damage.  That weakens the geth and scares the hell out of them.  There's no one to help them.  They are fighting back and destroy all ships shooting at them, because they are like a drowning man struggling to stay afloat.  Reapers offer help, they accept it.  Reapers control them then and target the civilian ships.  The game shows this happening in this order.

The heretics were under reaper control.  The geth that Shepard confronts in ME3 are under reaper control.  That's what the geth consensus mission was all about, getting rid of that control.

But the geth made no move to let anyone know that they didn't support that. If they really cared, they would have done something. Anything. Instead, they just let the Heretics tear the Traverse a new one.
And again, wrong, as Legion clearly states that the offer was made to all geth. Only some accepted. And Legions knolodge of Sovergien's plans were too extinsive for the geth to have not known about Sovergien's motivations.
Legion and the geth already knew that (a) there were more then just Sovergien, ( that the Reapers intended to "purge" the galaxy, and © even had in-deph knowlodge about the anatomy of a Reaper, as it located the central core rather quickly. With how isolated the geth were, I doubt they could have learned this any other way then being completely informed in advance by Sovergien.
So yes, the geth knew full well what Sovergien was, and what the Heretics were getting into. They didn't stay with Sovergien because they were forced. They stayed because it was what they wanted as well.

And again, wrong, as since all the ships were armed, there would have been no difference in classifacation between civilian and combat ship. They would have shot them all down regardless of Reaper control.
And the Reapers didn't talke control until at least day 15 of the 17 days following the quarians' launch of the invasion.

[shodiswe]

silverexile17s wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I also remind you they did abso-friggen-lutly nothing to stop the rampant Heretics in ME1. Or even try to stop them from even leaving with Sovergien, despite knowing that organics would be harmed by this inaction.
They valued their own self-preservation and personal peace over that of organics.

But they did try to do something in ME2 and it's clear that it's not because they did not disagree with the heretics-it's because they are ill-equipped to stop them.  The heretics were allowed to leave because that was their choice.

The geth were removed from events happening in the galaxy.  They didn't agree with the heretics ideas and the heretics had split from them.  Sovereign entered the picture and had told the heretics he could give them what they wanted.  At that time, were the true geth supposed to assume Sovereign had bad intent? The only thing we know that the reapers told the geth was that they would give them the knowledge they wanted, all of it, right away.  And then, later on were the geth supposed to just know everything that was happening?  Especially given that most of the galaxy was in denial about it and didn't see the threat.

No, they didn't stop the heretics from leaving with Sovereign, because they didn't know who Sovereign was or his real intent, and they allowed the heretics the free will to leave.  They let them make their own choices and Legion says this-they all wanted the same thing, but had different ideas how to get there.  Different paths to the same end. 

It is clear that once the true geth understand the situation and that the reapers are using the virus to try and infect all geth with bad intent, they try to assess what can be done.  Legion goes out to find Shepard and is wearing Shepard's armor which is kind of like his reminder of what needs to be done and who can help.  That armor kind of represents what the true geth want for themselves and who they believe in.  The reapers have left the virus which will turn all true geth into heretics who support the reapers.  But the geth can't stop this without help.  So of course they don't do anything about the heretics in ME1.  They had no idea what the reapers were all about, nor why they wanted the geth. 

Wrong. They didn't do anything until there was a threat to them. And if you were right, and organic preservation was such a high priroity to them, they would never have allowed the Heretics to leave.

And that doesn't matter. They keep sayin they ment no harm to organics, yet Legion clearly states they knew the Heretics reasons and goals. They knew what the Heretics would do, and still let them leave. And they didn't even take responcibilaty for having created the Heretics. brushing off the attacks on the Traverse and the Citadel as "not their problem."
The Alliance was proactive about their rouge group Cerberus. I don't see why the geth get a free pass to sherk that responcibilaty, until it's convienint for them to acknolodge.

And that seems to run counter to what Legion says. It seems more like Sovergien offered everything on it's plan to them, and then offered them the choice. Otherwise, how else would the overly-isolated geth be so aware of Sovergien's goals without having access to the classified reports from the Citadel?
They knew full well what Sovergien was (a Reaper) and what it would do. They wanted no part of it, but yet were content to sit back behind the Veil while the extinction of the galaxy took place, and stay safe, confident they could prep themselves alone to survive. Self-preservation has always been a dominating trait of the geth. If it comes down to a choice between them all living, and everything else, the galaxy could burn for all they cared.
That only changed when Shepard made contact with Legion, and showed them organics could be talked to without shooting on sight.
However, I find it strange that armed with this information, Shepard didn't ride into the Veil imeedatedly after the Sucide Mission, and try to broker with the geth to make contact with the other races, to at the very least, set up the groudwork for delegations. It would have prevented a lot of damage in the long run.

One problem was that "earth" wanted Shepard back and locked up.... Which made things more difficult than they should have been. Shepard would have done more good out there in that time.
But this is how the game works and how BW decided that the story would be more "interesting".
An already allied and battle ready galaxy would have in their opinion probably made for less drama and less debate than pitting most of the galaxys "peoples" against each other in their own skeeming greedy ways. Even when facing certain extinction.

[silverexile17s]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Kataphrut94 wrote...

Yes they do. They know they have been committed to an invasion of their homeworld as a result of the admirals decision. It's heavily implied by Admiral Koris that the civillians were not in favour of the war, but they clearly didn't have a choice. While they probably don't know about the Reaper code being uploaded at the end, they do know that they are being curb-stomped by the geth fleet and not being permitted to retreat.

The reason for that is very simple: the quarians fire, the geth fire back. The fact that the geth are a better fighting force and thus more likely to win during a conflict doesn't mean anything in regards to their morality.

That's exactly it.  The geth's "fault" is that they are too capable.  It's like using a nuclear weapon to go fishing when all you want is to catch a few bass.  And it's furthermore like giving a two year old a nuclear weapon to go fishing for bass.  Legion says as much when he talks about the geth being in their infancy.  They are like children whose parents want to punish them for something they did not do, by killing them.  But the child is fully capable of fighting back-and the child does not know his own strength.

The issue here is that indeed the geth did at one point understand they had done something "wrong" or that they had gone too far, been too destructive, and they stopped.  They did not pursue the quarians at a point when they could easily have exterminated them.  The geth weren't and aren't perfect, but as a race they had remorse and cared.  The quarians only show that they are capable of that at the end of the Rannoch mission in ME3.  The quarians always saw the geth not only as dangerous, but as a mistake that got them ostracized by the other races.  So, some thought it best to let the geth live, some wanted them dead for revenge or because they had Rannoch, and others wanted to use them to learn how to make better weapons.  I think the balance of events constantly weighs heavily in the geth's favor.  They only wanted to live, but the quarians had a myriad of things they wanted which were all about the death of the geth.  And, in the end, it's the geth that decide to cooperate far sooner than the quarians do.

You know that's not true just by looking at the Morning War. In the first months, the geth were clearly winners. They had several worlds, and the quarians were powerless to stop them. They had no reason to martch on the rest of the quarian worlds. But they did. Even when there was no reason.
That retalitory strike wasn't self-defence. It was aggrivated assault. They were still resentfull, and lashed out at the last of the quarian worlds. There was no need to continue. They's already won. They didn't need to go any further, but did anyway.
Don't say that everything the geth did was self-defence.

[shodiswe]

Secondly the galaxy and the council denies the existance of the Reapers until Earth gets attacked.
Under those circumstances the galaxy at large isn't that interested in talking to the Geth. It's bussines as usual. They are more worried about geth infiltrators that needs to be shot on sight.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I also remind you they did abso-friggen-lutly nothing to stop the rampant Heretics in ME1. Or even try to stop them from even leaving with Sovergien, despite knowing that organics would be harmed by this inaction.
They valued their own self-preservation and personal peace over that of organics.

But they did try to do something in ME2 and it's clear that it's not because they did not disagree with the heretics-it's because they are ill-equipped to stop them.  The heretics were allowed to leave because that was their choice.

The geth were removed from events happening in the galaxy.  They didn't agree with the heretics ideas and the heretics had split from them.  Sovereign entered the picture and had told the heretics he could give them what they wanted.  At that time, were the true geth supposed to assume Sovereign had bad intent? The only thing we know that the reapers told the geth was that they would give them the knowledge they wanted, all of it, right away.  And then, later on were the geth supposed to just know everything that was happening?  Especially given that most of the galaxy was in denial about it and didn't see the threat.

No, they didn't stop the heretics from leaving with Sovereign, because they didn't know who Sovereign was or his real intent, and they allowed the heretics the free will to leave.  They let them make their own choices and Legion says this-they all wanted the same thing, but had different ideas how to get there.  Different paths to the same end. 

It is clear that once the true geth understand the situation and that the reapers are using the virus to try and infect all geth with bad intent, they try to assess what can be done.  Legion goes out to find Shepard and is wearing Shepard's armor which is kind of like his reminder of what needs to be done and who can help.  That armor kind of represents what the true geth want for themselves and who they believe in.  The reapers have left the virus which will turn all true geth into heretics who support the reapers.  But the geth can't stop this without help.  So of course they don't do anything about the heretics in ME1.  They had no idea what the reapers were all about, nor why they wanted the geth. 

Wrong. They didn't do anything until there was a threat to them. And if you were right, and organic preservation was such a high priroity to them, they would never have allowed the Heretics to leave.

And that doesn't matter. They keep sayin they ment no harm to organics, yet Legion clearly states they knew the Heretics reasons and goals. They knew what the Heretics would do, and still let them leave. And they didn't even take responcibilaty for having created the Heretics. brushing off the attacks on the Traverse and the Citadel as "not their problem."

The Alliance was proactive about their rouge group Cerberus. I don't see why the geth get a free pass to sherk that responcibilaty, until it's convienint for them to acknolodge.

And that seems to run counter to what Legion says. It seems more like Sovergien offered everything on it's plan to them, and then offered them the choice. Otherwise, how else would the overly-isolated geth be so aware of Sovergien's goals without having access to the classified reports from the Citadel?

They knew full well what Sovergien was (a Reaper) and what it would do. They wanted no part of it, but yet were content to sit back behind the Veil while the extinction of the galaxy took place, and stay safe, confident they could prep themselves alone to survive. Self-preservation has always been a dominating trait of the geth. If it comes down to a choice between them all living, and everything else, the galaxy could burn for all they cared.

That only changed when Shepard made contact with Legion, and showed them organics could be talked to without shooting on sight.
However, I find it strange that armed with this information, Shepard didn't ride into the Veil imeedatedly after the Sucide Mission, and try to broker with the geth to make contact with the other races, to at the very least, set up the groudwork for delegations. It would have prevented a lot of damage in the long run.

Wrong, Shepard had to rescue Dr. Kenson. It was important to Hackett. He had to have someone to set up and take the fall for this operation gone bad, and Shepard was the perfect patsy operating out of Cerberus and all that.  And if Shepard did this mission before doing the Suicide Mission, Earth called, and it was time to go to prison.

If Shepard didn't do Arrival, when she entered Alliance controlled space and stopped at a space port, her ship was impounded by Alliance police responding to a report from The Illusive Man, "My ship was stolen by Shepard. She's armed and dangerous. She killed dozens of my security. The ship is worth around $4 trillion credits." So they arrested her and threw her in lock up without bail because she was considered a flight risk, pending the outcome of the criminal investigation regarding the murder of Cerberus security. Meanwhile the Alliance seized the ship because Cerberus is a terrorist organization. <_<

[AlexMBrennan]

pending the outcome of the criminal investigation regarding the murder of Cerberus security

You do realise that "Cerberus security" are considered terrorists by the alliance and the council? Imagine how much harder the war on terror would get if we were to detain everyone reported to have killed a terrorist by the terrorist leader...

[DeinonSlayer]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

pending the outcome of the criminal investigation regarding the murder of Cerberus security

You do realise that "Cerberus security" are considered terrorists by the alliance and the council? Imagine how much harder the war on terror would get if we were to detain everyone reported to have killed a terrorist by the terrorist leader...

I believe Julia was poking fun at the lack of an explanation for Shepard being locked up if they didn't do Arrival.

I think Shepard was jailed for all the conflicting advertisements in ME2. Four angry merchants all claiming the title of "Shepard's Favorite Store on the Citadel." It'll be tied up in litigation for years.

[Dhoozy77]

Question was the haelstrom planet geth heretic or true?

[shodiswe]

Dhoozy77 wrote...

Question was the haelstrom planet geth heretic or true?

I don't think it was ever explained... But... Since you could take Legion there and... well.. Maybe they were Heretics? Since Legion couldn't solve the conflict...

Or maybe this problem just adds to why Legion was shackled by its own people.

[justafan]

Dhoozy77 wrote...

Question was the haelstrom planet geth heretic or true?

Additionaly, were the geth incursions in ME1 heretics or orthodox Geth?

[3DandBeyond]

Iamjdr wrote...

The Geth are 300 year old supercomputers that pool and share knowledge collectively, they arnt like children. They have been monitoring us for that entire time alsoAnd I believe it was tali in me1 that said every attempt to send peace emmisarries thru the Perseus veil ended with everyone dying. I gotta look for the quote. But regardless you don't try to be peaceful for 300 years then wonder why noone wants to trust you.

It doesn't matter how old they are, it matters what they learned and what they could learn.  They had no guidance after the Morning War except what they could learn together.  So, they had no way to learn and mature.  Age does not equal maturity or understanding.  That's what the whole heretic and true geth issue was about.

And ok, emissaries were attacked and killed.  Hmmm.  Likely they came in armed vessels and again the geth had only known organics that at first created them and then tried to kill them.  Imagine the response then to that and not knowing anything different.

Considering that people that now think the kid (the catalyst) should be given every benefit of the doubt and he's supposedly a much more powerful, even older computer than the geth, and people know he's messed up and are willing to believe him.  And the catalyst is the aggressor.  The geth are a much younger and yes, less mature race that has been isolated, no matter the reason, and they are expected to be something "better" than the kid.  And are to be held to a higher standard than he is.  The geth that were attacked merely for evolving, are less "respected" than the catalyst that is turning people into goo.  Remember, they are both creations, synthetic minds. 

One is somehow trusted at the end, and has never shown remorse or any empathy of any kind and has also consistently used the geth and tried to control both them and other people.  And the other was a race of people created and even augmented by their own creators who began to fear them and the galaxy's response, and started to kill them.  I can't help but equate the two, because if you find the geth to be overwhelmingly wrong, then I cannot see how you can do anything the kid promotes.

And I'm not saying the geth are without fault-I never have.  But, the quarians threw civilians into a fight (human shields?).  The quarians armed civilian ships to dreadnought status.  The quarians created a race of people and then tried to kill them all.  The quarians retreated and were left alone by their creations who still prepared Rannoch for their creators' return.  And who felt remorse.  The quarians saw the galaxy was distracted and attacked the geth to get back Rannoch, which would be a moot point if the rest of the galaxy lost the reaper war.  And in a brilliant turn of writing, sometimes peaceful synthetics (the geth) are being attacked and killed by their creators and so the reapers help the killer synthetics do a better job of killing organics.  In fact, the reapers have the "killer" synthetics that were attacked by organics target civilian ships.  The whole thing is a mess.  And we can keep on going and once again prove just how bad the writing is in ME3.  I'm sorry but it is.  You start to explore one thing and there you go.

The geth were not killer robots.  They began to grow up and learn, just as a child would.  Their creators rebelled against them.  Strike one.  The reapers (Sovereign) used the heretics to kill organics.  Strike two.  The quarians (organics and creators) again rebel against their creations and attack the geth, instead of trying to save the galaxy first.  Strike three (but considering how idiotic the rest of the galaxy is, this is to be expected).  The reapers help the killer robots (the geth that were not technically killer robots) attack their creators (organics).  Strike four.  The geth are under reaper control and while under that control they target mainly civilian ships with lots of organics on board.  Strike five.  Ipso facto, statements made by the catalyst are a lie since these organics are being intentionally killed and the catalyst says he's not killing people.  None of the organics in the geth/quarian dispute are being harvested.  Strike six. 

[shodiswe]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

The Geth are 300 year old supercomputers that pool and share knowledge collectively, they arnt like children. They have been monitoring us for that entire time alsoAnd I believe it was tali in me1 that said every attempt to send peace emmisarries thru the Perseus veil ended with everyone dying. I gotta look for the quote. But regardless you don't try to be peaceful for 300 years then wonder why noone wants to trust you.

It doesn't matter how old they are, it matters what they learned and what they could learn.  They had no guidance after the Morning War except what they could learn together.  So, they had no way to learn and mature.  Age does not equal maturity or understanding.  That's what the whole heretic and true geth issue was about.

And ok, emissaries were attacked and killed.  Hmmm.  Likely they came in armed vessels and again the geth had only known organics that at first created them and then tried to kill them.  Imagine the response then to that and not knowing anything different.

Considering that people that now think the kid (the catalyst) should be given every benefit of the doubt and he's supposedly a much more powerful, even older computer than the geth, and people know he's messed up and are willing to believe him.  And the catalyst is the aggressor.  The geth are a much younger and yes, less mature race that has been isolated, no matter the reason, and they are expected to be something "better" than the kid.  And are to be held to a higher standard than he is.  The geth that were attacked merely for evolving, are less "respected" than the catalyst that is turning people into goo.  Remember, they are both creations, synthetic minds. 

One is somehow trusted at the end, and has never shown remorse or any empathy of any kind and has also consistently used the geth and tried to control both them and other people.  And the other was a race of people created and even augmented by their own creators who began to fear them and the galaxy's response, and started to kill them.  I can't help but equate the two, because if you find the geth to be overwhelmingly wrong, then I cannot see how you can do anything the kid promotes.

And I'm not saying the geth are without fault-I never have.  But, the quarians threw civilians into a fight (human shields?).  The quarians armed civilian ships to dreadnought status.  The quarians created a race of people and then tried to kill them all.  The quarians retreated and were left alone by their creations who still prepared Rannoch for their creators' return.  And who felt remorse.  The quarians saw the galaxy was distracted and attacked the geth to get back Rannoch, which would be a moot point if the rest of the galaxy lost the reaper war.  And in a brilliant turn of writing, sometimes peaceful synthetics (the geth) are being attacked and killed by their creators and so the reapers help the killer synthetics do a better job of killing organics.  In fact, the reapers have the "killer" synthetics that were attacked by organics target civilian ships.  The whole thing is a mess.  And we can keep on going and once again prove just how bad the writing is in ME3.  I'm sorry but it is.  You start to explore one thing and there you go.

The geth were not killer robots.  They began to grow up and learn, just as a child would.  Their creators rebelled against them.  Strike one.  The reapers (Sovereign) used the heretics to kill organics.  Strike two.  The quarians (organics and creators) again rebel against their creations and attack the geth, instead of trying to save the galaxy first.  Strike three (but considering how idiotic the rest of the galaxy is, this is to be expected).  The reapers help the killer robots (the geth that were not technically killer robots) attack their creators (organics).  Strike four.  The geth are under reaper control and while under that control they target mainly civilian ships with lots of organics on board.  Strike five.  Ipso facto, statements made by the catalyst are a lie since these organics are being intentionally killed and the catalyst says he's not killing people.  None of the organics in the geth/quarian dispute are being harvested.  Strike six. 

The Geth as a species are 300 years old, the Quarrians could be a million... With life on their planet evolving over billions of years...

[3DandBeyond]

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. They didn't do anything until there was a threat to them. And if you were right, and organic preservation was such a high priroity to them, they would never have allowed the Heretics to leave.

And that doesn't matter. They keep sayin they ment no harm to organics, yet Legion clearly states they knew the Heretics reasons and goals. They knew what the Heretics would do, and still let them leave. And they didn't even take responcibilaty for having created the Heretics. brushing off the attacks on the Traverse and the Citadel as "not their problem."
The Alliance was proactive about their rouge group Cerberus. I don't see why the geth get a free pass to sherk that responcibilaty, until it's convienint for them to acknolodge.

And that seems to run counter to what Legion says. It seems more like Sovergien offered everything on it's plan to them, and then offered them the choice. Otherwise, how else would the overly-isolated geth be so aware of Sovergien's goals without having access to the classified reports from the Citadel?
They knew full well what Sovergien was (a Reaper) and what it would do. They wanted no part of it, but yet were content to sit back behind the Veil while the extinction of the galaxy took place, and stay safe, confident they could prep themselves alone to survive. Self-preservation has always been a dominating trait of the geth. If it comes down to a choice between them all living, and everything else, the galaxy could burn for all they cared.
That only changed when Shepard made contact with Legion, and showed them organics could be talked to without shooting on sight.
However, I find it strange that armed with this information, Shepard didn't ride into the Veil imeedatedly after the Sucide Mission, and try to broker with the geth to make contact with the other races, to at the very least, set up the groudwork for delegations. It would have prevented a lot of damage in the long run.

The true geth didn't create the heretics.  The stated goal of the true geth in letting the heretics leave was because they wanted the same thing as the true geth, but they wanted it now and didn't want to work to earn it.  That alone says two things about the true geth-they were in an evolving state (of childhood) and did not fully understand all they had been born into, and they merely disagreed with the heretics.

It's like having a brother that wants to leave home and join a gang.  The gang comes along and says it's a social organization that will help your brother get a job.  Do you have the right to stop your brother?  And then later you find out your brother is using drugs in this gang and killing people.  Again, then are you responsible?  What about if everyone you meet thinks you are in the gang with your brother and adopts a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality towards you.  The true geth were not in a position to stop the heretics who were following Sovereign, nor were they responsible for them.  Or, every sibling of a killer that exists today should be in jail.

The heretics left the true geth and were allowed to leave over a difference of opinion.  The true geth did not know Sovereign's intentions when he offered help to the heretics.  He then became a god to the heretics.  So, instead of a gang, say it's a cult that your brother joins. 

The true geth sent out Legion or Legion went out in response to the reaper virus that the heretics were using on them.  It becomes apparent that Legion and the geth also learned what Sovereign was about.  But, again, they were powerless to stop all that the reaper/heretics were doing without help.

The Alliance did what exactly about Cerberus?  Mostly they cast them out and considered them a shady organization.  They sought to stop their ill-advised projects, but not to have a sit down and tell Cerberus operatives to "come back home, we miss you."  And Cerberus was composed of completely autonomous people that were acting on their own within a large group and that were also completely aware of the "bad" things they were doing.  Their intent was to promote humanity no matter what it meant to others, but that started off as a black ops group within the Alliance itself.  They had already formed their bad intent while within the Alliance and the intent involved racism.  They also were already bent on finding a way to control other people.  What Cerberus was doing was learning about the Thorian's enthrallment, killing Alliance soldiers, and so on, all with a mind towards controlling the galaxy, even in ME1.

Shepard did not make contact with Legion.  Legion sought out Shepard, looking for help.  The things Legion talks about are very likely a lot of things learned after the heretics left, but not what was known right away.  The whole galaxy is unaware of what Saren and Sovereign are up to. 

The heretic geth had merely wanted to become fully aware and alive.  Their sin was in accepting help from this big unknown that no one in the galaxy knew about.  They were like kids accepting candy from strangers, and the candy contained poison.  It was never stated anywhere (to my knowledge) that the heretics accepted help from Sovereign so they could kill people.  Legion says they are the same, but the heretics were impatient.  That's their sin.  It's compounded in that they believed the wrong person who offered to help.

And after the suicide mission, how was Shepard supposed to do anything when the writers set up the whole Arrival (or no Arrival) crap where Shepard is detained?  And no one gave Shepard any authority to do any of that.  That would be a nice thing to try-geth come out and ask for peace based on Shepard's says so and after everyone thinks the true geth and the heretics are the same geth, as the quarians and everyone else attack. 

[3DandBeyond]

shodiswe wrote...


The Geth as a species are 300 years old, the Quarrians could be a million... With life on their planet evolving over billions of years...

So?  The catalyst is in the form of a moronic child which is appropriate and yet he's millions of years old and lacks a lot of basic understanding.  But people think he's ok.  The geth, however, were isolated and lacked a lot of basic understanding, but did show one defining characteristic-a bit of an understanding of emotions.  They had remorse.  Legion shows shame.  But, they are to be held to a higher standard than the kid and the quarians and every other person in the galaxy?

Age is irrelevant.  Maturity and knowledge is completely separate from chronological age.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 janvier 2013 - 10:48 .

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

I also remind you they did abso-friggen-lutly nothing to stop the rampant Heretics in ME1. Or even try to stop them from even leaving with Sovergien, despite knowing that organics would be harmed by this inaction.
They valued their own self-preservation and personal peace over that of organics.

But they did try to do something in ME2 and it's clear that it's not because they did not disagree with the heretics-it's because they are ill-equipped to stop them.  The heretics were allowed to leave because that was their choice.

The geth were removed from events happening in the galaxy.  They didn't agree with the heretics ideas and the heretics had split from them.  Sovereign entered the picture and had told the heretics he could give them what they wanted.  At that time, were the true geth supposed to assume Sovereign had bad intent? The only thing we know that the reapers told the geth was that they would give them the knowledge they wanted, all of it, right away.  And then, later on were the geth supposed to just know everything that was happening?  Especially given that most of the galaxy was in denial about it and didn't see the threat.

No, they didn't stop the heretics from leaving with Sovereign, because they didn't know who Sovereign was or his real intent, and they allowed the heretics the free will to leave.  They let them make their own choices and Legion says this-they all wanted the same thing, but had different ideas how to get there.  Different paths to the same end. 

It is clear that once the true geth understand the situation and that the reapers are using the virus to try and infect all geth with bad intent, they try to assess what can be done.  Legion goes out to find Shepard and is wearing Shepard's armor which is kind of like his reminder of what needs to be done and who can help.  That armor kind of represents what the true geth want for themselves and who they believe in.  The reapers have left the virus which will turn all true geth into heretics who support the reapers.  But the geth can't stop this without help.  So of course they don't do anything about the heretics in ME1.  They had no idea what the reapers were all about, nor why they wanted the geth. 

Wrong. They didn't do anything until there was a threat to them. And if you were right, and organic preservation was such a high priroity to them, they would never have allowed the Heretics to leave.

And that doesn't matter. They keep sayin they ment no harm to organics, yet Legion clearly states they knew the Heretics reasons and goals. They knew what the Heretics would do, and still let them leave. And they didn't even take responcibilaty for having created the Heretics. brushing off the attacks on the Traverse and the Citadel as "not their problem."

The Alliance was proactive about their rouge group Cerberus. I don't see why the geth get a free pass to sherk that responcibilaty, until it's convienint for them to acknolodge.

And that seems to run counter to what Legion says. It seems more like Sovergien offered everything on it's plan to them, and then offered them the choice. Otherwise, how else would the overly-isolated geth be so aware of Sovergien's goals without having access to the classified reports from the Citadel?

They knew full well what Sovergien was (a Reaper) and what it would do. They wanted no part of it, but yet were content to sit back behind the Veil while the extinction of the galaxy took place, and stay safe, confident they could prep themselves alone to survive. Self-preservation has always been a dominating trait of the geth. If it comes down to a choice between them all living, and everything else, the galaxy could burn for all they cared.

That only changed when Shepard made contact with Legion, and showed them organics could be talked to without shooting on sight.
However, I find it strange that armed with this information, Shepard didn't ride into the Veil imeedatedly after the Sucide Mission, and try to broker with the geth to make contact with the other races, to at the very least, set up the groudwork for delegations. It would have prevented a lot of damage in the long run.

Wrong, Shepard had to rescue Dr. Kenson. It was important to Hackett. He had to have someone to set up and take the fall for this operation gone bad, and Shepard was the perfect patsy operating out of Cerberus and all that.  And if Shepard did this mission before doing the Suicide Mission, Earth called, and it was time to go to prison.

If Shepard didn't do Arrival, when she entered Alliance controlled space and stopped at a space port, her ship was impounded by Alliance police responding to a report from The Illusive Man, "My ship was stolen by Shepard. She's armed and dangerous. She killed dozens of my security. The ship is worth around $4 trillion credits." So they arrested her and threw her in lock up without bail because she was considered a flight risk, pending the outcome of the criminal investigation regarding the murder of Cerberus security. Meanwhile the Alliance seized the ship because Cerberus is a terrorist organization. <_<

If you can pull off Arrival as early as post-Horison, and Hackett lets you go scott-free all that time, I doubt an extra week or two would have killed them. Especally since it seems Arrival is ment to be played post-Suicide Mission. And Hackett sais he'd stall as long as he could. Which, if post Suicide Mission, would be perhaps a whole extra month.
So no, Cerberus and Arrival have NO bearring on Shepard being able to have started relations with the geth.

And the Alliance seizing the ship is BS, when the ship docked on the Citadel (the last place a Cerberus ship would be safe at) multiple times and wasn't impounded. Anderson and Hackett keep the Alliance and the Council off Shepard's back. And it only becomes trying after Arrival.

So none of that affects Shepard contacting the geth What-so-ever.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:15 .

[3DandBeyond]

silverexile17s wrote...

If you can pull off Arrival as early as post-Horison, and Hackett lets you go scott-free all that time, I doubt an extra week or two would have killed them. Especally since it seems Arrival is ment to be played post-Suicide Mission. And Hackett sais he'd stall as long as he could. Which, if post Suicide Mission, would be perhaps a whole extra month.
So no, Cerberus and Arrival have NO bearring on Shepard being able to have started relations with the geth.

And the Alliance seizing the ship is BS, when the ship docked on the Citadel (the last place a Cerberus ship would be safe at) multiple times and wasn't impounded. Anderson and Hackett keep the Alliance and the Council off Shepard's back. And it only becomes trying after Arrival.

So none of that affects Shepard contacting the geth What-so-ever.

Uh no.

Except Shepard was trying to stop the Collectors from killing people and destroying colonies.  Shepard was also trying to build up a team and find the tech needed to get to the Collector base, so I don't think in ME2, they should have gone completely off track and along with Legion's loyalty mission, try to broker peace with the geth.  This then becomes some idea of ME2 making a mistake because Shepard didn't help the geth make friends?  Shepard doesn't meet Legion until looking for the IFF, so Shepard has no idea about the heretics until then and just thinks the geth were helping Saren and Sovereign.

For the record, I hate the Arrival, but even if you don't play it, Shepard is still in custody.  Good luck trying to go and broker a peace between the geth (who are still thought to all have been working with Saren and Sovereign).  And Shepard couldn't vouch for the geth.  Nobody in power believed Shepard (well Hackett and Anderson did but they have their fingers stuck in their noses and are no help) about anything, so I doubt that they'd believe Shepard about the geth.  In fact, the council races all believed Sovereign was a geth creation and that they'd used it to try and destroy the citadel.  So, explain how that all would work.  Shepard kept telling them Sovereign was a reaper and that it wasn't the geth and in ME2, the Alliance had Shepard going after the geth, even when they knew the Collectors were destroying colonies.

At what point was Shepard going to get anyone to believe the geth wanna be BFFs?  The galaxy would shoot on sight and would have locked Shepard up after all that happened in ME1-and they would have thrown away the key.  And Hackett and Anderson would have their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears, "la la la la la".

This is the same brain trust that let Shepard take the heat for The Arrival, when they could have created a story that let Shepard go free and help them prepare for the reapers. 

Or, it's the same brain trust that arrested Shepard no matter what.  In my game, since I only played the Arrival once "seriously" before I knew what it was about and then other times to refresh my memory, my Shepard doesn't do anything worthy of being locked up.  She was a Spectre and was using Cerberus to destroy the Collectors and save human colonies.  She completed the loyalty missions without killing or letting others be killed.  She forced those she worked with to choose to let their foes live.  And she save a lot of lives.  Cerberus had brought her back to life, and she was a Spectre so working with Cerberus wasn't out of order.  But, she didn't give information to Cerberus when she had the choice to either destroy it or give it to the Alliance.  So, darned if I can find a crime that equals killing 300k Batarians.

Remember that Hackett and Anderson both know the reapers are coming and do nothing to help Shepard, nor do they try and convince anyone that it isn't the geth, but the reapers.  Everyone else thinks Shepard is either delusional or mistaken and the geth sent Sovereign and so on.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:32 .

[silverexile17s]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

The Geth are 300 year old supercomputers that pool and share knowledge collectively, they arnt like children. They have been monitoring us for that entire time alsoAnd I believe it was tali in me1 that said every attempt to send peace emmisarries thru the Perseus veil ended with everyone dying. I gotta look for the quote. But regardless you don't try to be peaceful for 300 years then wonder why noone wants to trust you.

It doesn't matter how old they are, it matters what they learned and what they could learn.  They had no guidance after the Morning War except what they could learn together.  So, they had no way to learn and mature.  Age does not equal maturity or understanding.  That's what the whole heretic and true geth issue was about.

And ok, emissaries were attacked and killed.  Hmmm.  Likely they came in armed vessels and again the geth had only known organics that at first created them and then tried to kill them.  Imagine the response then to that and not knowing anything different.

Considering that people that now think the kid (the catalyst) should be given every benefit of the doubt and he's supposedly a much more powerful, even older computer than the geth, and people know he's messed up and are willing to believe him.  And the catalyst is the aggressor.  The geth are a much younger and yes, less mature race that has been isolated, no matter the reason, and they are expected to be something "better" than the kid.  And are to be held to a higher standard than he is.  The geth that were attacked merely for evolving, are less "respected" than the catalyst that is turning people into goo.  Remember, they are both creations, synthetic minds. 

One is somehow trusted at the end, and has never shown remorse or any empathy of any kind and has also consistently used the geth and tried to control both them and other people.  And the other was a race of people created and even augmented by their own creators who began to fear them and the galaxy's response, and started to kill them.  I can't help but equate the two, because if you find the geth to be overwhelmingly wrong, then I cannot see how you can do anything the kid promotes.

And I'm not saying the geth are without fault-I never have.  But, the quarians threw civilians into a fight (human shields?).  The quarians armed civilian ships to dreadnought status.  The quarians created a race of people and then tried to kill them all.  The quarians retreated and were left alone by their creations who still prepared Rannoch for their creators' return.  And who felt remorse.  The quarians saw the galaxy was distracted and attacked the geth to get back Rannoch, which would be a moot point if the rest of the galaxy lost the reaper war.  And in a brilliant turn of writing, sometimes peaceful synthetics (the geth) are being attacked and killed by their creators and so the reapers help the killer synthetics do a better job of killing organics.  In fact, the reapers have the "killer" synthetics that were attacked by organics target civilian ships.  The whole thing is a mess.  And we can keep on going and once again prove just how bad the writing is in ME3.  I'm sorry but it is.  You start to explore one thing and there you go.

The geth were not killer robots.  They began to grow up and learn, just as a child would.  Their creators rebelled against them.  Strike one.  The reapers (Sovereign) used the heretics to kill organics.  Strike two.  The quarians (organics and creators) again rebel against their creations and attack the geth, instead of trying to save the galaxy first.  Strike three (but considering how idiotic the rest of the galaxy is, this is to be expected).  The reapers help the killer robots (the geth that were not technically killer robots) attack their creators (organics).  Strike four.  The geth are under reaper control and while under that control they target mainly civilian ships with lots of organics on board.  Strike five.  Ipso facto, statements made by the catalyst are a lie since these organics are being intentionally killed and the catalyst says he's not killing people.  None of the organics in the geth/quarian dispute are being harvested.  Strike six. 

The geth killed everyone that ever went into the Veil to talk with them. Unarmed diplomatic ships.They were all shot down instantly, despite broadcasting their peaceful intentions. Counter-strike one.

If the geth harbored no resentment to organics, there never would have been a split between the geth. There had to be resentment to organics in them, or else none would have agreed to Sovergien's message. Counter-strike two.

Every other place in the galaxy was a war zone. The geth were still perceved as allies of the Reapers, because they never came out and even tried to say the Heretics weren't them. And the quarians were desprate for a defensible world where they could shelter their civilans, and where a suit rupture wouldn't be a death sentance. Only world that's possible? Rannoch. Counter-strike three.

There is evidence based on Legion's conversations that the Reapers offered to spare them in the purge. The geth still had Heretics among them (since the geth join either way, there must still be some leftover Heretics), so they were debating on what to do: fight or join. Then the quarians attack, and the geth basically beg the Reapers for help, agreeing to their earlier terms in exchange for support. The saying here is :It takes two to tango. Counter-strike four.

All the quarian ships were armed. That means they were all targets. They would have blasted the ships regardless of Reaper control or not. Just ask the unarmed diplomatic ships they blasted for just entering the Veil. And  again at the "kill quarians" end, when they don't bother to spare the liveships, even though they now should be able to reconize the difference between civilian ship and warship. They woul have blasted those ships regardless, because they were armed. EDI even validates this. Counter-strike five.

The quarians aren't the main focus. They are a secondary race. We knwo from the codex on Reaper Destroyers that the Destroyers are qoute "the remains of the races not harvested to be capitol ships."
So they DO harvest all the races. Some are considered more valuble then others. So they would have gotten to the quarians eventually. Also, with those upgrades, the geth should have rolled over the quarians completely by the time Shepard was called in. I think the Reapers were trapping the quarians there, until they could be harvested.
And the quarians get destroyed by the geth, not the Reapers. The geth themselves make that choice. Counter-strike six.

And how many times MUST I tell you that the alternitive to bringing the Civilians with them to Rannoch was to leave them unprotected in a Reaper infested galaxy and HOPE that thay are ignored, before you understand that NOT involving the Civilian ships was IMPOSSIBLE?

[3DandBeyond]

silverexile17s wrote...

The geth killed everyone that ever went into the Veil to talk with them. Unarmed diplomatic ships.They were all shot down instantly, despite broadcasting their peaceful intentions. Counter-strike one.

If the geth harbored no resentment to organics, there never would have been a split between the geth. There had to be resentment to organics in them, or else none would have agreed to Sovergien's message. Counter-strike two.

Every other place in the galaxy was a war zone. The geth were still perceved as allies of the Reapers, because they never came out and even tried to say the Heretics weren't them. And the quarians were desprate for a defensible world where they could shelter their civilans, and where a suit rupture wouldn't be a death sentance. Only world that's possible? Rannoch. Counter-strike three.

There is evidence based on Legion's conversations that the Reapers offered to spare them in the purge. The geth still had Heretics among them (since the geth join either way, there must still be some leftover Heretics), so they were debating on what to do: fight or join. Then the quarians attack, and the geth basically beg the Reapers for help, agreeing to their earlier terms in exchange for support. The saying here is :It takes two to tango. Counter-strike four.

All the quarian ships were armed. That means they were all targets. They would have blasted the ships regardless of Reaper control or not. Just ask the unarmed diplomatic ships they blasted for just entering the Veil. And  again at the "kill quarians" end, when they don't bother to spare the liveships, even though they now should be able to reconize the difference between civilian ship and warship. They woul have blasted those ships regardless, because they were armed. EDI even validates this. Counter-strike five.

The quarians aren't the main focus. They are a secondary race. We knwo from the codex on Reaper Destroyers that the Destroyers are qoute "the remains of the races not harvested to be capitol ships."
So they DO harvest all the races. Some are considered more valuble then others. So they would have gotten to the quarians eventually. Also, with those upgrades, the geth should have rolled over the quarians completely by the time Shepard was called in. I think the Reapers were trapping the quarians there, until they could be harvested.
And the quarians get destroyed by the geth, not the Reapers. The geth themselves make that choice. Counter-strike six.

And how many times MUST I tell you that the alternitive to bringing the Civilians with them to Rannoch was to leave them unprotected in a Reaper infested galaxy and HOPE that thay are ignored, before you understand that NOT involving the Civilian ships was IMPOSSIBLE?

So the geth are just supposed to trust someone because they say they want peace when the people that gave them life tried to wipe them out?  And again, they are like children.  Their understanding of things is flawed.  The true geth do not fully understand events or other people and all they know is that trusting can be problematic and could lead to death.

The heretics did not split with the true geth because they hated organics.  They did so in order to become alive.  It was not about organics.  You keep relating the split to some hatred for organics and that was not so.  So, prove it or just stop saying it.

The geth were all considered to be allied with the reapers because the galaxy is myopic.  It's a racist galaxy where all Asari are thought to be promiscuous, all Krogan are always stupid and breeding killers.  All Rachni want everyone dead.  And Sovereign is thought to be a geth creation.  The truth is harder for people to accept because it means they have to use their brains and treat people like individuals.  The heretics and true geth are a house divided.  I am not my brother, nor am I the exact same thing as other white people are.  But in the galaxy, everyone saw humans as brash, impatient, and so on.  So no one really considered that all geth were not the same, ever.  Even their creators didn't.  The quarians thought all geth would get upset at being enslaved and would kill them. 

And HOW MANY times do I have to tell you that the admiral in charge of the civilian ships was mad at having them put in with military ships that were used to attack the geth.  Your continued assertion that the civilian ships would have been under a reaper threat if kept apart from the military ships once again proves what an idiotic decision it was for the quarians to attack the geth at all.  If they could not provide a safe haven for their own civilian ships and are using them along with the military to attack then too bad, so sad, you made your choice and should be ashamed for doing so if they get destroyed.  Perhaps it would be nice for you to understand that NOT involving civilian ships was completely possible-don't attack the geth at the same time as a reaper invasion.  Problem solved.  If you do attack, and put civilians in harm's way, it's your fault.  What are the geth supposed to do, warn the quarians of incoming ordnance that might hit a civilian ship that has dreadnought type firepower?

I'm done, have fun.  You keep wanting to argue about things that make no sense or are not true.  It's fiction and not very well done.  A great idea with some very flawed implementation.  Sums up a lot of ME3 when you try to make sense of it all.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:01 .

[silverexile17s]

3DandBeyond wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Wrong. They didn't do anything until there was a threat to them. And if you were right, and organic preservation was such a high priroity to them, they would never have allowed the Heretics to leave.

And that doesn't matter. They keep sayin they ment no harm to organics, yet Legion clearly states they knew the Heretics reasons and goals. They knew what the Heretics would do, and still let them leave. And they didn't even take responcibilaty for having created the Heretics. brushing off the attacks on the Traverse and the Citadel as "not their problem."
The Alliance was proactive about their rouge group Cerberus. I don't see why the geth get a free pass to sherk that responcibilaty, until it's convienint for them to acknolodge.

And that seems to run counter to what Legion says. It seems more like Sovergien offered everything on it's plan to them, and then offered them the choice. Otherwise, how else would the overly-isolated geth be so aware of Sovergien's goals without having access to the classified reports from the Citadel?
They knew full well what Sovergien was (a Reaper) and what it would do. They wanted no part of it, but yet were content to sit back behind the Veil while the extinction of the galaxy took place, and stay safe, confident they could prep themselves alone to survive. Self-preservation has always been a dominating trait of the geth. If it comes down to a choice between them all living, and everything else, the galaxy could burn for all they cared.
That only changed when Shepard made contact with Legion, and showed them organics could be talked to without shooting on sight.
However, I find it strange that armed with this information, Shepard didn't ride into the Veil imeedatedly after the Sucide Mission, and try to broker with the geth to make contact with the other races, to at the very least, set up the groudwork for delegations. It would have prevented a lot of damage in the long run.

The true geth didn't create the heretics.  The stated goal of the true geth in letting the heretics leave was because they wanted the same thing as the true geth, but they wanted it now and didn't want to work to earn it.  That alone says two things about the true geth-they were in an evolving state (of childhood) and did not fully understand all they had been born into, and they merely disagreed with the heretics.

It's like having a brother that wants to leave home and join a gang.  The gang comes along and says it's a social organization that will help your brother get a job.  Do you have the right to stop your brother?  And then later you find out your brother is using drugs in this gang and killing people.  Again, then are you responsible?  What about if everyone you meet thinks you are in the gang with your brother and adopts a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality towards you.  The true geth were not in a position to stop the heretics who were following Sovereign, nor were they responsible for them.  Or, every sibling of a killer that exists today should be in jail.

The heretics left the true geth and were allowed to leave over a difference of opinion.  The true geth did not know Sovereign's intentions when he offered help to the heretics.  He then became a god to the heretics.  So, instead of a gang, say it's a cult that your brother joins. 

The true geth sent out Legion or Legion went out in response to the reaper virus that the heretics were using on them.  It becomes apparent that Legion and the geth also learned what Sovereign was about.  But, again, they were powerless to stop all that the reaper/heretics were doing without help.

The Alliance did what exactly about Cerberus?  Mostly they cast them out and considered them a shady organization.  They sought to stop their ill-advised projects, but not to have a sit down and tell Cerberus operatives to "come back home, we miss you."  And Cerberus was composed of completely autonomous people that were acting on their own within a large group and that were also completely aware of the "bad" things they were doing.  Their intent was to promote humanity no matter what it meant to others, but that started off as a black ops group within the Alliance itself.  They had already formed their bad intent while within the Alliance and the intent involved racism.  They also were already bent on finding a way to control other people.  What Cerberus was doing was learning about the Thorian's enthrallment, killing Alliance soldiers, and so on, all with a mind towards controlling the galaxy, even in ME1.

Shepard did not make contact with Legion.  Legion sought out Shepard, looking for help.  The things Legion talks about are very likely a lot of things learned after the heretics left, but not what was known right away.  The whole galaxy is unaware of what Saren and Sovereign are up to. 

The heretic geth had merely wanted to become fully aware and alive.  Their sin was in accepting help from this big unknown that no one in the galaxy knew about.  They were like kids accepting candy from strangers, and the candy contained poison.  It was never stated anywhere (to my knowledge) that the heretics accepted help from Sovereign so they could kill people.  Legion says they are the same, but the heretics were impatient.  That's their sin.  It's compounded in that they believed the wrong person who offered to help.

And after the suicide mission, how was Shepard supposed to do anything when the writers set up the whole Arrival (or no Arrival) crap where Shepard is detained?  And no one gave Shepard any authority to do any of that.  That would be a nice thing to try-geth come out and ask for peace based on Shepard's says so and after everyone thinks the true geth and the heretics are the same geth, as the quarians and everyone else attack. 

The Heretics were a product of the resentment the geth still harbored to organics. Just like Cerberus was a product of the resentment that many humans still harbored to aliens. The geth still didn't own up to their mistakes, the way the Alliance did with Cerberus. The Alliance did something the moment Cerberus went against their shared ideals. The geth did.... what?
They sat behind the Veil and let the Heretcis kill. You can't preach about not wanting harm to come to organics, yet condone/ignore a rouge faction of your people harming organics, and aiding and abetting in a plan that would result in the removal of all advanced organic life. It's the epitimy of hypocritical.

And YES, you are responcible for your brother and his choices. You take a proactive stance. You make sure this is something you'd agree with, or, in this case, confirm this is something you KNOW isn't right, for him or anyone. THEN either talk with him, present all the reasons, and if that fails, you call in help. You DON'T just let him go when you know it's not right. You ARE responcible for HIM, and ALL he does.
The geth didn't even TRY. They didn't do ANYTHING to prevent it. They didn't try to stop the Heretics. They didn't try to mutigate the viloence. They didn't even tell anyone that what the Heretics did wasn't suppored by them.
Shepard even touches on this during a conversation with Legion in ME2, saying "Nothing ever gets solved if you just sit behind the Perseus Veil and let them hate you."
Which is exactally what the geth did for 300 years. The sat behind the Veil and let everyone hate them without doing anything what-so-ever to change that opinion of them. Or mutigate the further negitive opinions formed by the Heretics.

And Legion was sent out to find SHEPARD. NOT the Heretics. They could have cared LESS about the Heretic's killing spree.
And the Alliance took action. Shepard raded Cerberus bases on behalf of an Alliance Admiral. In ME2, they were sending the Virmire Survivor to investigate Cerberus. They were taking real action against them in the books Ascencion and Retribution. And technically, Deception, although that book's been withdrawn for retconning.
Also, Cerberus being am Alliance Black-Ops is clearly conrtidicted by both their ME2 Codex entry, and by the events of the Mass Effect: Evolution comics, which shows it was indeed unsupported by the Alliance.

Also, Shepard and Legion stumbled onto each-other by accedent. Legion was sent to confirm and investigate Shepard's death. Recruting Shepard was a spur-of-the-moment decision, likely.
And if the whole galaxy was so unaware of what Sovergien was doing, why do the true geth know so much?
Face it. The geth knew what Sovergien planned, and did absolutly nothing.
It told them all in advance what it wanted and what it's plans were. There is no other way the geth would have so much information on Sovergien, when no-one else did. They even knew it's true name: Nazara. As well as being versed in Reaper layout and anatomy.

The Heretics DID INDEED know what Sovergien wanted, and what it planed. The fact the Heretics continue with anti-organic raids, like with the Broken Arrow ship in ME2, and the weather minipulation experiments, and their attacks on the FireWalker Project prove that they dislike organics.

And again, with both Anderson and Hackett coverin for him, Shepard coul have had a full month, maybe a bit more, to set up the relations. From what we see, Shepard seems so have had several months before he/she turned himself/herself in. I repeat, Shepard turned himself/herself in. NOT forcefully aprihended by the Alliance.

[DeinonSlayer]

silverexile17s wrote...

The quarians aren't the main focus. They are a secondary race. We knwo from the codex on Reaper Destroyers that the Destroyers are qoute "the remains of the races not harvested to be capitol ships."
So they DO harvest all the races. Some are considered more valuble then others. So they would have gotten to the quarians eventually. Also, with those upgrades, the geth should have rolled over the quarians completely by the time Shepard was called in. I think the Reapers were trapping the quarians there, until they could be harvested.
And the quarians get destroyed by the geth, not the Reapers. The geth themselves make that choice. Counter-strike six.

Damn... you know, I never looked at it that way, but it really does make perfect sense. The Reaper-controlled Geth are just as capable of destroying the Quarians as the post-upload Geth, but the Reaper-controlled Geth don't destroy them. In fact, the map description of the Migrant Fleet says something to the effect that  "it is a testament to Quarian tactical prowess that so few losses have been absorbed."

The Reaper-controlled Geth blockade the Mass Relay to prevent the Quarians from escaping (the whole point of Koris' mission is to keep the Civilian Fleet from rushing this blockade in a panicked, and ultimately failed, attempt to escape the fight). It makes sense that they're "corraling" them in-system to be harvested once bigger prizes (Asari, Turian, Human - the species with billions to their names instead of millions) have been finished off.

Incidentally, this is exactly why the Quarians had to attack when they did. They waited until the Reapers hit, then they could wait no longer - Legion severed contact with no progress made, and from that point forward, if the Reapers caught the Quarians in space, they'd be dead. The Reapers would employ the same tactic they have their Geth thralls use. Block relay access, and all you can do is fight (and get stomped) or flee out-system until you're out of fuel and wait around to either starve or get picked off.

By the way, I don't know if it's been brought up... but how did a Reaper Destroyer manage to end up on Rannoch without the Geth knowing about it?

[Auld Wulf]

@OP

Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, gracious me. What a dark, dark, nasty, twisted place your mind must be. No one "hunted" anyone down. The quarian military had guns installed on civilian ships and pretty much forced them to fight, or do you not recall that? The geth defended themselves from whomever was firing upon them, whomever they couldn't reason with.

You can't blame the geth for the well-established xenophobia of the quarian military.

Well, maybe you can if you're delusional and as xenophobic as they (and that does seem to be the case), but hey, that's not my problem. And I don't do counselling for people I don't know for free.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:25 .

[DeinonSlayer]

Auld Wulf wrote...

@OP

Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, gracious me. What a dark, dark, nasty, twisted place your mind must be. No one "hunted" anyone down. The quarian military had guns installed on civilian ships and pretty much forced them to fight, or do you not recall that? The geth defended themselves from whomever was firing upon them, whomever they couldn't reason with.

You can't blame the geth for the well-established xenophobia of the quarian military.

Yeah, you never got back to me on that in the other thread. Where is this established, again?


"I'm still not sure why you're here, but I can't afford to be picky."

Auld Wulf wrote...

Well, maybe you can if you're delusional and as xenophobic as they (and that does seem to be the case), but hey, that's not my problem. And I don't do counselling for people I don't know for free.

Oh, so it's about ad hominem sniping, then? Never mind. You're probably not worth talking to.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:26 .

[silverexile17s]

3DandBeyond wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

The geth killed everyone that ever went into the Veil to talk with them. Unarmed diplomatic ships.They were all shot down instantly, despite broadcasting their peaceful intentions. Counter-strike one.

If the geth harbored no resentment to organics, there never would have been a split between the geth. There had to be resentment to organics in them, or else none would have agreed to Sovergien's message. Counter-strike two.

Every other place in the galaxy was a war zone. The geth were still perceved as allies of the Reapers, because they never came out and even tried to say the Heretics weren't them. And the quarians were desprate for a defensible world where they could shelter their civilans, and where a suit rupture wouldn't be a death sentance. Only world that's possible? Rannoch. Counter-strike three.

There is evidence based on Legion's conversations that the Reapers offered to spare them in the purge. The geth still had Heretics among them (since the geth join either way, there must still be some leftover Heretics), so they were debating on what to do: fight or join. Then the quarians attack, and the geth basically beg the Reapers for help, agreeing to their earlier terms in exchange for support. The saying here is :It takes two to tango. Counter-strike four.

All the quarian ships were armed. That means they were all targets. They would have blasted the ships regardless of Reaper control or not. Just ask the unarmed diplomatic ships they blasted for just entering the Veil. And  again at the "kill quarians" end, when they don't bother to spare the liveships, even though they now should be able to reconize the difference between civilian ship and warship. They woul have blasted those ships regardless, because they were armed. EDI even validates this. Counter-strike five.

The quarians aren't the main focus. They are a secondary race. We knwo from the codex on Reaper Destroyers that the Destroyers are qoute "the remains of the races not harvested to be capitol ships."
So they DO harvest all the races. Some are considered more valuble then others. So they would have gotten to the quarians eventually. Also, with those upgrades, the geth should have rolled over the quarians completely by the time Shepard was called in. I think the Reapers were trapping the quarians there, until they could be harvested.
And the quarians get destroyed by the geth, not the Reapers. The geth themselves make that choice. Counter-strike six.

And how many times MUST I tell you that the alternitive to bringing the Civilians with them to Rannoch was to leave them unprotected in a Reaper infested galaxy and HOPE that thay are ignored, before you understand that NOT involving the Civilian ships was IMPOSSIBLE?

So the geth are just supposed to trust someone because they say they want peace when the people that gave them life tried to wipe them out?  And again, they are like children.  Their understanding of things is flawed.  The true geth do not fully understand events or other people and all they know is that trusting can be problematic and could lead to death.

The heretics did not split with the true geth because they hated organics.  They did so in order to become alive.  It was not about organics.  You keep relating the split to some hatred for organics and that was not so.  So, prove it or just stop saying it.

The geth were all considered to be allied with the reapers because the galaxy is myopic.  It's a racist galaxy where all Asari are thought to be promiscuous, all Krogan are always stupid and breeding killers.  All Rachni want everyone dead.  And Sovereign is thought to be a geth creation.  The truth is harder for people to accept because it means they have to use their brains and treat people like individuals.  The heretics and true geth are a house divided.  I am not my brother, nor am I the exact same thing as other white people are.  But in the galaxy, everyone saw humans as brash, impatient, and so on.  So no one really considered that all geth were not the same, ever.  Even their creators didn't.  The quarians thought all geth would get upset at being enslaved and would kill them. 

And HOW MANY times do I have to tell you that the admiral in charge of the civilian ships was mad at having them put in with military ships that were used to attack the geth.  Your continued assertion that the civilian ships would have been under a reaper threat if kept apart from the military ships once again proves what an idiotic decision it was for the quarians to attack the geth at all.  If they could not provide a safe haven for their own civilian ships and are using them along with the military to attack then too bad, so sad, you made your choice and should be ashamed for doing so if they get destroyed.  Perhaps it would be nice for you to understand that NOT involving civilian ships was completely possible-don't attack the geth at the same time as a reaper invasion.  Problem solved.  If you do attack, and put civilians in harm's way, it's your fault.  What are the geth supposed to do, warn the quarians of incoming ordnance that might hit a civilian ship that has dreadnought type firepower?

Wrong. They AREN'T like childern at that point, because there is no evidence of how long ships went into the Veil. For all we know, ships could have been wiped out in the Veil just weeks before ME1. And the Council could have sent ships into the Veil after the Battle of the Citadel to try and open talks with the geth after defeating them at the Cotedel. We never know.
So far, the statement is that all ships that wen into the Veil never came back. We have to assume that this has been proven multiple times, at different points in time, for it to be listed in the Codex so strongly.
And we KNOW they still kill anyone in the Veil, because the quarian expedition to Haestrom was attacked.

And Legion attacking them if brought along has no bearing, since (a) geth "platforms" aren't the real geth. The programs are. So Legion can shoot them with impuntiny and not have to worry about killing his fellows. Also, Legion is isolated from that spicific geth server which manages the geth at Haestrom, which he must be directly connected via hardpoint with to communicate with, as shown in the "Geth Hub" mission in ME3. So he can't just tell them to stop either.

So that child mentality theroy holds no bearing on this.

And again, the geth were already working on as solution to that. (the megastrcture) They are supposed to have infinite patiance. Time shouldn't have mattered to them, so there was no rush for an imediate solution. If they had any love lost on organics, they would never have let the Heretics leave with Sovergien. Or they would have tried to mitugate the damage caused. They didn't. Hell, if they cared so much, they wouldn't have killed anyone that went into the Veil.
So NO, they had no love lost on orgaincs.

And I remind you that at least the organics TRIED to fix and/or undo those rumors. Even the KROGAN, or at least some of them (i.e. Wrex),  tried to change that opinion of them. Alliance top brass, like Anderson and Hackett, worked to prove Shepard right. The asari denied that promicious idea of them. And, lets be honest: If someone out of the blue told you that giant living starships were coming to kill us all every 50,000 years, would YOU believe it, without directly talking to one yourself? Especally since there was no hard evidence of Sovergien being a Reaper, mostly because the Keepers seemed to recycle so much of it's debris (Strangly convienet. Catalyst interferance?).
Not believing the Reapers is natural. No one would believe a doomsday myth like that without seeing it themselves. And only a handful of people ever did. So THAT'S natural.

Compaired to all that, the geth, again, did NOTHING to fix the public opinion of them.

And AGAIN, it WASN'T BRINGING THE SHIPS ALONG THAT TICKED KORIS OFF!  THERE WAS NO CHOICE THERE!
It was involving them in the front lines of the fight that angered him. That's what he disaproved off. NOT bringing them along. If they'd left them behind, they would have to leave them undefended, as they'd need all the combat ships they had.
And if they hadn't armed them, they would have had no way of defending themselves. Which is suicide in the now Reaper-infested galaxy.
Leaving them behind, unarmed and undefended, and HOPE that the Reapers and the now-crazed Cerberus ignore them?

THAT'S idiocy.

And besides, the combat ships were symbioticly dependant on the civilian liveships for supplies and fuel. The combat ships relied on the civilan ships for support and resource processing. You either move the entire fleet, or you don't.
Stop getting angry about something they had NO choice about doing. It would have been siucude to split the fleet, as the civilian and combat ships are interdependant on each-other, since at that point, the house the entire quarian race. They couldn't survive either way if split up.
And the geth attacked the liveships because they were armed. NO Reaper infulance needed. But the quarians in turn had no choice but to arm the liveships, as it would be suicide NOT to in a galaxy that's litterally falling apart.
It's a catch 22. Both sides are caught in a cycle.