214 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

David7204 wrote...

Overall, the BSN has proven to be incredibly incapable of understanding what a retcon is. Hence we have absolutely ridiculous accusations like Bryson's speculations about the rachni being a retcon. Like the completely intentional discrepency between Samara's information on Ardat-Yakshi and the codex's being a retcon.

Indeed. People expect that any information they are given in-universe is 100% true and infallible.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Overall, the BSN has proven to be incredibly incapable of understanding what a retcon is. Hence we have absolutely ridiculous accusations like Bryson's speculations about the rachni being a retcon. Like the completely intentional discrepency between Samara's information on Ardat-Yakshi and the codex's being a retcon.

You think THAT'S what we're complaining about?

I don't know anyone who complains about any of what you just mentioned, nor do I know anyone who thinks those are retcons.


I know what retcons are. I also know the Mass Effect trilogy is full with them, especially ME3.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Oh really? They've only said that about a million times by now.

[Sebby]

Hey, going from needing sealed suits in hazardous environments to being able to wear catsuits, nipple straps and unzipped cleavage vests in them is no retcon! Everyone in ME1 just didn't know you could do it!

[Steelcan]

Seboist wrote...

Hey, going from needing sealed suits in hazardous environments to being able to wear catsuits, nipple straps and unzipped cleavage vests in them is no retcon! Everyone in ME1 just didn't know you could do it!

. Laziness and fan service =/= retcon.  It's equally stupid though.

[David7204]

That is not a Retcon. That is absolutely not fan-service. And that is not laziness.

[BleedingUranium]

David7204 wrote...

That is not a Retcon. That is absolutely not fan-service. And that is not laziness.

Indeed. Biotics fields.

[Ravensword]

Seboist wrote...

Hey, going from needing sealed suits in hazardous environments to being able to wear catsuits, nipple straps and unzipped cleavage vests in them is no retcon! Everyone in ME1 just didn't know you could do it!

Those catsuits, nipple straps, and unzipped cleavage vests are necessary for mass effect fields to work.

Modifié par Ravensword, 21 janvier 2013 - 08:24 .

[The Heretic of Time]

the most glaring and annoying retcons to me are the Council retcons.

If you saved the Council:
"you saved billions of lives from Sovereign and the reapers" (ME1) to "ahhh yeas, reapers" (ME2).


If you sacrificed the Council for an all-human Council, we STILL just get a mixed council in ME3. That retcon annoyed me to no end too.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

That is not a Retcon. That is absolutely not fan-service. And that is not laziness.

. So Miranda, Jack, and Samara weren't male fan service?  

And yes it is laziness.  BioWare didnt want to model a haz-mat suit for them, so they just gave 'em a mask.

[BleedingUranium]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

the most glaring and annoying retcons to me are the Council retcons.

If you saved the Council:
"you saved billions of lives from Sovereign and the reapers" (ME1) to "ahhh yeas, reapers" (ME2).


If you sacrificed the Council for an all-human Council, we STILL just get a mixed council in ME3. That retcon annoyed me to no end too.

Not a retcon. They're politicians, this shouldn't be difficult to grasp.

[Steelcan]

Going from an entirely human council, to one of each species is definitely a retcon.

[MegaSovereign]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


If you sacrificed the Council for an all-human Council, we STILL just get a mixed council in ME3. That retcon annoyed me to no end too.

An all-human Council doesn't even make sense. The retcon was necessary to undo said stupidity.

[BleedingUranium]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


If you sacrificed the Council for an all-human Council, we STILL just get a mixed council in ME3. That retcon annoyed me to no end too.

An all-human Council doesn't even make sense. The retcon was necessary to undo said stupidity.

Yeah, retcons aren't always bad.

[Outsider edge]

Albeit Mass Effect 2 had it's fair share of sillyness. It had one advantage over Mass Effect 3 and that's the fact it was the middle part of a planned trilogy. Plotpoints like the Lazarus project or the motives of Harbinger wouldn't have been an issue if those loose ends would have been tied up in Mass Effect 3. Instead pretty much none of the loose ends in Mass Effect 2 is further eleborated on in the third game making the story in the second game shaky aswell in retrospect.

As writing a coherent trilogy goes it feels like a swing and a miss for Bioware. But considering this is the first time they've attempted such a project it's not really a surprise they faltered along the road. It's a learning process and if Bioware ever tries too make another fully connected trilogy the experiences from ME will aid them considerably.

[Steelcan]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


If you sacrificed the Council for an all-human Council, we STILL just get a mixed council in ME3. That retcon annoyed me to no end too.

An all-human Council doesn't even make sense. The retcon was necessary to undo said stupidity.

. But it's still a retcon.

[David7204]

You're taking two different issues and pretending they're the same thing. The outfits existing and the outfits being worn in hazardous environments.

Is the existence of the outfits in the first place fanservice? Sure.

Is the matter of the outfits being worn in hazardous environments fanservice? Absolutely not. That's a completely different issue with different variables behind it.

And given that maybe 2% of games made after 2007 have even a few characters with one single outfit that look as good as the characters in Mass Effect 2,  which features over a dozen characters with multiple outfits, yes, it's a little ridiculous to call the developers 'lazy.'

[The Heretic of Time]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

the most glaring and annoying retcons to me are the Council retcons.

If you saved the Council:
"you saved billions of lives from Sovereign and the reapers" (ME1) to "ahhh yeas, reapers" (ME2).


If you sacrificed the Council for an all-human Council, we STILL just get a mixed council in ME3. That retcon annoyed me to no end too.

Not a retcon. They're politicians, this shouldn't be difficult to grasp.

It is a retcon. The politicians are alone with Shepard. They have no reason to lie to him and pretend the reapers don't exist in front of him. In fact. it's counter-productive. No real-life politician is THAT retarded,

And the 2nd example is most certainly a retcon. You cannot deny that.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

And given that maybe 2% of games made after 2007 have even a few characters with one single outfit that look as good as the characters in Mass Effect 2,  which features over a dozen characters with multiple outfits, yes, it's a little ridiculous to call the developers 'lazy.'

Really? I can name over a dozen games made after 2007 with more characters than ME2 in greater detail than ME2.

Maybe BioWare isn't lazy, but they don't seem to care much for realism or consistency (both aesthetic and narrative) either.

[MegaSovereign]

Steelcan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


If you sacrificed the Council for an all-human Council, we STILL just get a mixed council in ME3. That retcon annoyed me to no end too.

An all-human Council doesn't even make sense. The retcon was necessary to undo said stupidity.

. But it's still a retcon.

It's EASILY forgiveable. Just like how the EC retconned the fate of the relays with high EMS.

[David7204]

'Realism.' Is that right? Why don't you tell me a few games that you consider to have more 'realism' than ME 3?

[GimmeDaGun]

BleedingUranium wrote...

At least you acknowledged it's an interpretation, not headcanon. But do you really think that an interpretation full of plot holes and impossibilities us as valid as one that has none?

I never said it wasn't. 

As for your question: lets not go there. IT bleeds from a thousand wounds, just like any theory, but if it gives some people amusement and a good time, why the hell not should they play with the idea and explain everything about the story through those glasses? I won't call them stupid, only I don't see why do they want me or others to become "believers". 

Yes, everybody knows already - even those who love the story and the games - that its plot throughout the whole triology has several leaks and inconsistencies (some noticeable, but most are minor). I don't know what's the big deal. It's just a game and it tells a simple but in a way clever and amusing story in the end which does work (yeah, many dislike it, I know), despite these flaws. Every game has inconsistences, or just take a look at most of the blockbuster movies which are not based on books. Most of them are full of strange, illogical, forced sometimes even inconsistent moments, but they still work (The Dark Knight and it's sequel for instance). Lets face it, those guys who write these stories may be professional (scipt)writers, but not from the school of old talents who could and still can write books and stories of true literal values (eg. I tried to read the much praised Drew K's first ME book and I couldn't enjoy it because of its writing style.. I'm too used to Frank Herbert, Asimov etc. level of writing when it comes to sci-fi). So I don't see why so many of you are that surprised that this story is not "rocket science", or of the quality of the aforementioned Asimov. It aims to entertain and it aims to give you a bit of a nostalgic feeling for different sci-fi flicks and genres. I's a main stream sci-fi game whit a few touches of old-school sci-fi. Inb4, I know Hanar, Maxter (only to you: from you, I already know that I'm "wrong" and a "stupid" "clown", so no need to struggle ) and Seboist that you don't consider it being sci-fi at all and you find almost everything ****ty about it. I already got that, no worries. 

As for this constant debate about quality story telling: I'm always amazed that a nerdy gaming forum is full of story writing experts.  Has any of you written and published anything yet? I would very much like to read a real "good story" at last.  I hope you get the joke... if not, then...

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 21 janvier 2013 - 08:48 .

[The Heretic of Time]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...


If you sacrificed the Council for an all-human Council, we STILL just get a mixed council in ME3. That retcon annoyed me to no end too.

An all-human Council doesn't even make sense. The retcon was necessary to undo said stupidity.

. But it's still a retcon.

It's EASILY forgiveable. Just like how the EC retconned the fate of the relays with high EMS.

To you maybe.

Also, the EC is not a retcon. It replaces the original endings, meaning that the original endings can be considered non-canon now.

ME2 and ME3 did not replace ME1, but expand on it. Yet they made changes to the lore. That's what a retcon is.


And then people are to say that we "haters" don't know what retcons are? Pffft.

[David7204]

I don't use terms such as 'hater.'

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

'Realism.' Is that right? Why don't you tell me a few games that you consider to have more 'realism' than ME 3?

We do not need to look far for that. ME1 for starters, is a game that's more realistic in many ways than ME2 and ME3.

The Witcher 2 is also way more realistic, and it's a fantasy game.