320 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

Smeffects wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

To help the pilots' brains. Not hearing things that we know should make sounds distracts and confuses us.

Thats not really true. When it comes to massive ships or submarine combat, presence of your enemy is not indicated by sounds your enemy does. We have other techniques to work around that. To be honest a realistic space combat would be more like submarine combat, little visual and audio queue, because of how empty and vast the battle ground is. The distance at which combat could take place makes eye visualisation impossible and ineffective, because it would be very dark in most locations.

For larger ships, yes, but not for fighters, interceptors, shuttles, and maybe even frigates. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove though, they are an established part of the MEU.

[Smeffects]

Eryri wrote...

Then, suddenly, they appeared to throw all that hard work and realism out of the window and resort to the oft lamented "space magic" for the most important part of their story. Why?

Well the very first premise of the game is an all solving space magic, mass effect. Second they did retcon alot of things for gameplay, action or story purpose. One exemple could be the weapon thermal clips, getting only few shots off. Mistakes or retcon doesent discreadite all they did before.

A story slip up for the exemple of how reapers actually worked in the prothean cycle. They took the citadel, closed the relay system and destroyed planet, per planet for hundreads of years. Organic fleets takes months/years to travel without the relay, leaving them defeated and uncoordinated. They sabotaged the prothean crucible attempt, according to IT, they want the crucible to be used? Sounds like not letting a cycle thats doomed already build it is a pretty bad idea? Also if they want the crucible so bad, cant they just build it themsleves, since they know it exist? I mean they build the citadel and the relay, one crucible cant be that long to build for them?

Then next cycle they manage to get the citadel, somehow, but they dont close the relay to insure the ease of harvesting them because they want the crucible used, if they closed the relay, shepard would have never made it back to earth and most of the fleet would have been impossible to coordinate togheter?  Sounds like a couple of conflict here?

Modifié par Smeffects, 21 janvier 2013 - 10:32 .

[me308f1cd5c]

Maybe there is a God in the ME universe, and it saved Shepard.

Of course that is using space magic to explain Shepards survival.

Modifié par me308f1cd5c, 21 janvier 2013 - 10:28 .

[BleedingUranium]

Smeffects wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Then, suddenly, they appeared to throw all that hard work and realism out of the window and resort to the oft lamented "space magic" for the most important part of their story. Why?

Well the very first premise of the game is an all solving space magic, mass effect. Second they did retcon alot of things for gameplay, action or story purpose. One exemple could be the weapon thermal clips, getting only few shots off. Mistakes or retcon doesent discreadite all they did before.

A story slip up for the exemple of how reapers actually worked in the prothean cycle. They took the citadel, closed the relay system and destroyed planet, per planet for hundreads of years. They sabotaged the prothean crucible attempt, according to IT, they want the crucible to be used? Sounds like not letting a cycle thats doomed already build it is a pretty bad idea? Then next cycle get the citadel but not close the relay to insure the ease of harvesting them because they want the crucible used? Sounds like a couple of conflict here?

It's quite simple. If taken literally then the Cruicble is not a Reaper trap and the next cycle does use it. If taken from an IT perspective then there is no next cycle.

Thermal clips are not a retcon. I swear no one knows how to use that word.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 21 janvier 2013 - 10:32 .

[CynicalShep]

me308f1cd5c wrote...

Maybe there is a God in the ME universe, and it saved Shepard.

Of course that is using space magic to explain Shepards survival.

There is a god in the ME universe. Meet "the Shepard"  who survives everything from Krogan charges and falls from heights to Reaper laz0rs, fire and explosions. He also sacrifices himself and comes back from the dead. I'd add the Reapers but they end up dying for good in my save

[Eryri]

Smeffects wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Then, suddenly, they appeared to throw all that hard work and realism out of the window and resort to the oft lamented "space magic" for the most important part of their story. Why?

Well the very first premise of the game is an all solving space magic, mass effect. Second they did retcon alot of things for gameplay, action or story purpose. One exemple could be the weapon thermal clips, getting only few shots off. Mistakes or retcon doesent discreadite all they did before.

That's a bit different. Mass Effect fields are part of the setting. They are introduced right at the beginning of the series. They are part of the "contract" between the audience and the author wherein we agree to suspend a little bit of disbelief to allow them to tell the story that they want to tell.

You traditionally don't do that sort of thing at the end of a story. Not without considerable foreshadowing to prepare the audience to suspend their disbelief.

But I'm of the (personaly and instinctive) opinion that Bioware are perfectly aware of this. I suspect they intended us to question the reality of this situation. The three colours of "Space Magic" are deliberately out of place. It's incredibly good writing masquerading as terrible writing. At least that's the way I like to see it. I could be wrong, but if so, meh, it was fun while it lasted.

[Peranor]

Just because there are scorch marks on the ground it isn't undisputible proof that Shepard was "vaporized". The scene is weird though. One could argue that Shepard is knocked back by the initial tube explosions shock-wave and that is why you can't see her/him in the next scene.
But when looking at the explosion it doesn't look like Shepard is going to be knocked back by the shockwave before cutting to the next scene.

The whole scenario is dubious though. All things accumulated, "Vaporized" or not Shepard shouldn't be able to survive the chain of events that occur from getting blasted by Harby and forward.

[Smeffects]

BleedingUranium wrote...


It's quite simple. If taken literally then the Cruicble is not a Reaper trap and the next cycle does use it. If taken from an IT perspective then there is no next cycle.

I think you miss understand the crucible part. Next cycle i mean shepards cycle, the one after prothean. See according to IT, they want the crucible. The problem with them wanting the crucible is that they never wanted it before. It is said the prothean tried to build it and that reaper agents sabotaged it. Why would they sabotage it, when its what they want and that they had already assured victory over the protheans. Wouldnt letting a losing cycle build it to easily capture it make sense? Or hell just go ahead and build the crucible alone, if an almost dead civilisation with limited ressource can do it, why cant reapers make it?

So if they dont want the crucible, they still captured the citadel and can now do like every other cycle before, close the relay, harvest one planet at a time, fleets cant do anything, instant reaper victory. Sounds like A CONVENIENT REAPER SLIP UP IF LITERAL, CONFLICTED STORY LINE IF IT.

Modifié par Smeffects, 21 janvier 2013 - 10:39 .

[BleedingUranium]

anorling wrote...



Just because there are scorch marks on the ground it isn't undisputible proof that Shepard was "vaporized". The scene is weird though. One could argue that Shepard is knocked back by the initial tube explosions shock-wave and that is why you can't see her/him in the next scene.
But when looking at the explosion it doesn't look like Shepard is going to be knocked back by the shockwave before cutting to the next scene.

The whole scenario is dubious though. All things accumulated, "Vaporized" or not Shepard shouldn't be able to survive the chain of events that occur from getting blasted by Harby and forward.

Indeed. Since people keep claiming that Shepard could survive a number of things he could not have, I've been trying to find something more concrete. As in, seeing it happen.


@Smeffect
We don't really know enough about the Prothean Crucible to say, considering if it's a trap we don't even know what it does (lots of speculation as to what it could do, but it's just speculation).

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 21 janvier 2013 - 10:43 .

[Smeffects]

BleedingUranium wrote...



@Smeffect
We don't really know enough about the Prothean Crucible to say, considering if it's a trap we don't even know what it does (lots of speculation as to what it could do, but it's just speculation).

Except theres nothing to say about it. If its a trap they want you to use it, for what purpose it doesent matter. If it was a trap, why sabotage the crucible from other cycles and not this present cycle one?

Again if taken literally, they dont want the crucible to dock., but they let the relay open so we could, Reapers are morons.

Again if taken as IT, they want the crucible docked, but they destroyed the others attempt to even build it? Reapers are morons?

Any way you want to look at the crucible its a huge hole in the story, why do you think it was only added for mass effect 3, its a conveniant way to end an impossible plot of defeating an undefeatable enemy. After mass effect 2, most of us saw that coming, but mostly using something like what could be found on the collector base. Still conveniant but part of the triology plot. Somehow they went a step further and introduced space magic device.

Modifié par Smeffects, 21 janvier 2013 - 10:50 .

[BleedingUranium]

"Sabotaged" can mean a lot of things, and might not be accurate. In Refuse, the Liara holo says the Crucible didn't work, but that's obviously not true.

[Peranor]

[Smeffects]

BleedingUranium wrote...

"Sabotaged" can mean a lot of things, and might not be accurate. In Refuse, the Liara holo says the Crucible didn't work, but that's obviously not true.

They are pretty specific about what happen to the prothean crucible actually. Reaper agents infiltrated the group and destroyed it before it could be completed. Why destroy it if it is what they wanted all along.


Any way you want to look at the crucible its a huge hole in the story, why do you think it was only added for mass effect 3, its a conveniant way to end an impossible plot of defeating an undefeatable enemy. After mass effect 2, most of us saw that coming, but mostly usingsomething like what could be found on the collector base. Still conveniant but part of the triology plot. Somehow they went a step further and introduced space magic device. The introduction of a device in an old archive human had access for a long time and informations from an AI prothean asari had for a long time, is pretty convenient and stupid.

Modifié par Smeffects, 21 janvier 2013 - 10:56 .

[cyrslash1974]

OP, seriously...

- if you consider that controling the reapers is possible
- if you consider that synthesis of all life is possible

so why a breath scene can't be possible ? It's a kind of magic...

[BleedingUranium]

Smeffects wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

"Sabotaged" can mean a lot of things, and might not be accurate. In Refuse, the Liara holo says the Crucible didn't work, but that's obviously not true.

They are pretty specific about what happen to the prothean crucible actually. Reaper agents infiltrated the group and destroyed it before it could be completed. Why destroy it if it is what they wanted all along.


Any way you want to look at the crucible its a huge hole in the
story, why do you think it was only added for mass effect 3, its a
conveniant way to end an impossible plot of defeating an undefeatable
enemy. After mass effect 2, most of us saw that coming, but mostly using
something like what could be found on the collector base. Still
conveniant but part of the triology plot. Somehow they went a step
further and introduced space magic device. The introduction of a device in an old archive human had access for a long time and informations from an AI prothean asari had for a long time, is pretty convenient and stupid.

I'm not sure they destroyed it, but I'll check the conversation again.

[BleedingUranium]

cyrslash1974 wrote...

OP, seriously...

- if you consider that controling the reapers is possible
- if you consider that synthesis of all life is possible

so why a breath scene can't be possible ? It's a kind of magic...

I didn't say I consider them possible, I want someone to explain how a vaporized Shepard can be in the breath scene.

anorling wrote...

And speculation would be completely impossible if there were only one way to look at the game.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 21 janvier 2013 - 10:58 .

[Eryri]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

"Sabotaged" can mean a lot of things, and might not be accurate. In Refuse, the Liara holo says the Crucible didn't work, but that's obviously not true.

They are pretty specific about what happen to the prothean crucible actually. Reaper agents infiltrated the group and destroyed it before it could be completed. Why destroy it if it is what they wanted all along.


Any way you want to look at the crucible its a huge hole in the
story, why do you think it was only added for mass effect 3, its a
conveniant way to end an impossible plot of defeating an undefeatable
enemy. After mass effect 2, most of us saw that coming, but mostly using
something like what could be found on the collector base. Still
conveniant but part of the triology plot. Somehow they went a step
further and introduced space magic device. The introduction of a device in an old archive human had access for a long time and informations from an AI prothean asari had for a long time, is pretty convenient and stupid.

I'm not sure they destroyed it, but I'll check the conversation again.

Even if they did, it doesn't disprove the idea that the Crucible is a trap. It's very construction is a huge drain on the Alliance's resources. Even if it turns out just to be a gigantic paperweight, it has still tied up the galaxy's best scientists and engineers for months when they should have been building Dreadnoughts. The same would have been true for the Protheans.

Also, if the Prothean seperatists were anything like Cerberus, they would have believed that they were still fighting the Reapers, just by trying to enslave them instead of destroying them. The Reapers didn't seem to micromanage TIM, they just let him believe he could control them and let him get on with getting in Shepard's way at every opportunity. When they started to worry that his experiments might actually be getting somewhere on Sanctuary, they shut him down.

The Prothean seperatists may have wanted to capture their cycle's crucible, in order to attempt Control, but if that was impossible they might have sabotaged it to prevent the rest of Protheans using it to Destroy, which they would have seen as a waste of a ready made army of warships.

Also if the Reapers or their minions didn't make a least a half-hearted attempt to sabotage the Crucible, suspicions might have been raised...

Modifié par Eryri, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:07 .

[BleedingUranium]

Yes, the Crucible being a paperweight is the least interesting, but very plausible possibility.

[Smeffects]

Eryri wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Smeffects wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

"Sabotaged" can mean a lot of things, and might not be accurate. In Refuse, the Liara holo says the Crucible didn't work, but that's obviously not true.

They are pretty specific about what happen to the prothean crucible actually. Reaper agents infiltrated the group and destroyed it before it could be completed. Why destroy it if it is what they wanted all along.


Any way you want to look at the crucible its a huge hole in the
story, why do you think it was only added for mass effect 3, its a
conveniant way to end an impossible plot of defeating an undefeatable
enemy. After mass effect 2, most of us saw that coming, but mostly using
something like what could be found on the collector base. Still
conveniant but part of the triology plot. Somehow they went a step
further and introduced space magic device. The introduction of a device in an old archive human had access for a long time and informations from an AI prothean asari had for a long time, is pretty convenient and stupid.

I'm not sure they destroyed it, but I'll check the conversation again.

Even if they did, it doesn't disprove the idea that the Crucible is a trap. It's very construction is a huge drain on the Alliance's resources. Even if it turns out just to be a gigantic paperweight, it has still tied up the galaxy's best scientists and engineers for months when they should have been building Dreadnoughts. The same would have been true for the Protheans.

Also, if the Prothean seperatists were anything like Cerberus, they would have believed that they were still fighting the Reapers, just by trying to enslave them instead of destroying them. The Reapers didn't seem to micromanage TIM, they just let him believe he could control them and let him get on with getting in Shepard's way at every opportunity. When they started to worry that his experiments might actually be getting somewhere on Sanctuary, they shut him down.

The Prothean seperatists may have wanted to capture their cycle's crucible, in order to attempt Control, but if that was impossible they might have sabotaged it to prevent the rest of Protheans using it to Destroy, which they would have seen as a waste of a ready made army of warships.

Also if the Reapers or their minions didn't make a least a half-hearted attempt to sabotage the Crucible, suspicions might have been raised...

If its just a paperweight and waste of ressource, why leave the relay open after they captured the citadel? Its a huge lack of logic, its what they always did. So not only would the alliance lose ressource building a crucible they cant use, but they would not actually be able to reach the citadel anyway. Even more ressource wasted and the impossibility to do anything about the harvesting, organics fleet cannot opperate without mass relay, so they won.

Theres just no reason this crucible plot works, literal or IT. Literal paint reapers as idiot of letting the alliance even come close after they have the citadel. They have taken hundread of years to destroy the prothean, whats the rush now?

IT if they want the crucible because they need it, they sure dont seems to like it in other cycles or they dont even bother building it themselves.

IT if crucible is a trap, they already win with the citadel and the relay closed. Whats the point of trapping someone that lost? See as you said they destroyed the crucible of the protheans, to hide that it was a trap because they lost. Cool we also lost if they have the citadel, close the relay and victory for the reapers. Next cycle wont know its a trap then?

IT if the crucible is nothing but a paperweight, still same problem as Literal, whats the god damn rush in this cycle, why must earth be defeated in less then a month? They have the citadel and the relay control? They took centuries to defeat other cycles? They sleep for 50000 years, whats the god damn rush now?

Modifié par Smeffects, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:22 .

[BleedingUranium]

You're asking for details to something that hasn't happened yet. The Reapers have some sort of plan that most likely involves the Crucible. I'm not fond this kind of speculation, like after ME2 asking how we're going to defeat the Reapers. We don't know.

[Eryri]

Smeffects wrote...


If its just a paperweight and waste of ressource, why leave the relay open after they captured the citadel? Its a huge lack of logic, its what they always did. So not only would the alliance lose ressource building a crucible they cant use, but they would not actually be able to reach the citadel anyway. Even more ressource wasted and the impossibility to do anything about the harvesting, organics fleet cannot opperate without mass relay, so they won.

Theres just no reason this crucible plot works, literal or IT. Literal paint reapers as idiot of letting the alliance even come close after they have the citadel. They have taken hundread of years to destroy the prothean, whats the rush now?

IT if they want the crucible because they need it, they sure dont seems to like it in other cycles or they dont even bother building it themselves.

IT if crucible is a trap, they already win with the citadel and the relay closed. Whats the point of trapping someone that lost? See as you said they destroyed the crucible of the protheans, to hide that it was a trap because they lost. Cool we also lost if they have the citadel, close the relay and victory for the reapers. Next cycle wont know its a trap then?

IT if the crucible is nothing but a paperweight, still same problem as Literal, whats the god damn rush in this cycle, why must earth be defeated in less then a month? They have the citadel and the relay control? They took centuries to defeat other cycles? They sleep for 50000 years, whats the god damn rush now?

Because by normal Reaper standards, this cycle is a disaster. They don't normally lose a single ship during a harvest, but thanks to the forewarning given by the Protheans, ours has managed to take out at least one Capital ship (Sovereign), 3 Destroyers (Rannoch, Tuchanka and one on Earth) and a Reaper Larva.

This was partly due to the Protheans having the time to leave beacons and other messages for later cycles to find. The Reapers may have decided that their leisurely former tactics have led to their current problems, so they gather the entire Alliance fleet at Earth to annihilate them all at once. Much more efficient that having to ferret out every pocket of resistance in the whole vastness of the Galaxy.

Modifié par Eryri, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:29 .

[Smeffects]

BleedingUranium wrote...

You're asking for details to something that hasn't happened yet. The Reapers have some sort of plan that most likely involves the Crucible. I'm not fond this kind of speculation, like after ME2 asking how we're going to defeat the Reapers. We don't know.

It happened before, thats why its called a cycle. Its because its repeating. If they had some plan for the crucible, it could have happened before.

If they need it, they would never destroy it or stop its creation, or hell create it themsleves.

If its a trap, they only use it when required or set it up. They dont need it in this cycle, because they have the citadel and the control of the relay.

If its a paperweight, again the plan is they want victory, their best shot as victory is to render our fleet of spaceship useless.

If its literal and they dont want the crucible to be used, they also failed by not closing the relays.

The continuation of the ending will still paint Reapers as moron if we win even under IT, they literally LET US WIN. Unlike every other cycles we heard of.

[BleedingUranium]

Eryri wrote...

Because by normal Reaper standards, this cycle is a disaster. They don't normally lose a single ship during a harvest, but thanks to the forewarning given by the Protheans, ours has managed to take out at least one Capital ship (Sovereign), 3 Destroyers (Rannoch, Tuchanka and one on Earth) and a Reaper Larva.

This was partly due to the Protheans having the time to leave beacons and other messages for later cycles to find. The Reapers may have decided that their leisurely former tactics have led to their current problems, so they gather the entire Alliance fleet at Earth to annihilate them all at once. Much more efficient that having to ferret out every pocket of resistance in the whole vastness of the Galaxy.

And a large number more were lost as mentioned in the codex and planet descriptions.

This cycle is the Reaper equivalent of doing the worst possible playthrough of Mass Effect.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:31 .

[BleedingUranium]

Smeffects wrote...

The continuation of the ending will still paint Reapers as moron if we win even under IT, they literally LET US WIN. Unlike every other cycles we heard of.

Oh? They let us win in IT? I thought we were utterly hopeless and doomed. Last I checked that was one of the main reasons people don't want to accept IT.

[Smeffects]

Eryri wrote...

This was partly due to the Protheans having the time to leave beacons and other messages for later cycles to find. The Reapers may have decided that their leisurely former tactics have led to their current problems, so they gather the entire Alliance fleet at Earth to annihilate them all at once. Much more efficient that having to ferret out every pocket of resistance in the whole vastness of the Galaxy.

Except that is not true. They were in an odd position until they captured the citadel again. Once they have the citadel, the normal cycle can begin. They dont care about ferrting out pocket of resistance, they did that before. Its effective when they have the citadel, because you cannot flea, they did that for century before. Every single system is isolated against the full reaper armada. Without the relay a fleet could never coordinate an attack. That was the premise of mass effect 1, without the relay we are defenseless, our need for their technology is our  undoing.