60 réponses à ce sujet

[Outsider edge]

Alot has been said these last few weeks about comments made by David Gaider the lead writer for Dragon Age concerning the state of BSN as a in his words toxic environment. But i do wonder what makes BSN different compaired too other gaming forums?

A question that occured too me after watching the latest fallout on the Diablo 3 forums. This week Jay Wilson the project director on the Blizzard game Diablo 3 announced he was stepping down from his duties on that game. This led too, i could say, him being figuratively speaking chased of the premises tarred and feathered by an angry community. It became so bad that the person that hired Wilson had too step in just too deflect the projectiles flung at him. Now for people that don't know Wilson he became quite infamous with his comments towards one of the creators of Diablo 2 (the "**** that loser"meme) aswell as being the project director on a game that didn't meet the expectations of a rabid fanbase. So a strong reaction too his departure wasn't that of a surprise yet the nature of the reaction can only be described as extremely negative.

Eventhrough i agree with David that BSN has been quite "toxic" over the years with a surge in activity after the Mass Effect 3 launch i do wonder if it's solely something that can be attributed too the BSN and it's connected fanbase alone. The best games usually have the most devoted fanbase and once things go awray things can become ugly no matter where you are.

Being a tourtoise and hiding in your shell everytime the fanbase erupts might work once but it's not something that should become common practice. Bioware isn't a special case in this regard. Blizzard, Activision, Bethesda all have a rabid fanbase that will speak up if a product is released they have problems with.

Even "crownjewels" like Rockstar or Valve who for many can do no wrong will have a firestorm on their hands when they fail too meet expectations with a GTA5 or Half Life 3.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 21 janvier 2013 - 12:28 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

tbh I don't think Bioware's forums are anymore toxic that other forums I have been on, its just Bioware likes to complain about it more. srsly it makes me laugh when Biowares response to complaints about their games, is that the forums are too toxic, it makes me want to whip out my tiny violin for all the hurt feelings. Although what happened with that female writer that time was out of order.

[DirtyPhoenix]

DinoSteve wrote...

tbh I don't think Bioware's forums are anymore toxic that other forums I have been on 

To be honest, BSN seems markedly more visceral than othet gaming forums I visit, but then other devs don't lie as blatantly and screw up their flagship franchise as spectacularly as BioWare does, do they. So that cancels itself out.

My advice to BW would be do some soul searching. Everyone screws up, no biggie. Just make sure it never happens again. Give us the best ME4 you can possibly make. Also, don't lie. Its allright to axe features due to time/budget constraints. Its completely another to do it and then claim on the contrary, knowing fully well you're not telling the truth. Don't make promises you can't keep is all.

Modifié par pirate1802, 21 janvier 2013 - 12:59 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

BSN is a depressing place to hang aroud.

Oh, GTA V won't fail. No chance.

[Grubas]

On the contrary. Never seen a forum with so many diehard optimists.
Yet.... i have never seen a dev posting here and beeing abused.
So i dont know. Maybe Gaider is getting old.

 

Modifié par Grubas, 21 janvier 2013 - 01:17 .

[SimonTheFrog]

It's also in the nature of things:

If you are happy with the game than you share your passion for a short period. We had that during the release of ME3: lots of "thank-you" threads. But sharing passion becomes boring once you have said everything there is to it at least once.
So, you leave and only come back to check for specific issues like a LI-related question or speculation about the next DLC.

It's quite different, if you are not happy. You want to tell the devs that you are not happy. You want to argue about why you think it's bad with others.
And since many bad things don't get fixed, you can argue about it basically forever.

So, after the initial phase of joy all the positive players move on and only the disappointed ones remain.

It's just psychology.

That said, I'm quite glad that developers get their *storm when they make questionable design decisions. How else would they learn to make it better next time?
But yeah, some more constructive criticism and a bit more patience would probably be good

[78stonewobble]

I don't think there is anything wrong with a spirited and "high decibel" debate. I grew up with that.

It's great fun.

Obviously once in a while someone crosses a line and that has to be managed by the powers that be.

In a way I think that if there isn't atleast a little emotion behind it. Then maybe what we're debating isn't that important anyway.

Quite often I am being stupid, acting stupid, posting something stupid. There isn't anything wrong with pointing that out. I'm not infallible or maybe I just didn't agree and I think it's the other guy/woman being stupid.

If at the end of the day people could potentially chill together and talk about something else with a beer or cup of coffee in hand then the debate was within my personal limits.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 21 janvier 2013 - 01:19 .

[T0X]

Lets just say that the forum "regulars" make this place...well.... very "special."

Modifié par T0X, 21 janvier 2013 - 01:24 .

[mumba]

Steam user forums is so much worse than the BSN.

[Stalker]

The current state of the fanbase is always the result of the developers' behavior. Always.

BioWare deeply disappointed the majority of fans to the core after blatantly lying, then even argued against them after the backlash... and now they expect a helpful community full of appreciative people? That's not how it works. They made the fanbase so "toxic" and cynical with their actions.

Do something that people can appreciate and you are appreciated. See CD Project Red or Valve.
Act like dicks in suits and you are treated like a dick in a suit. See EA or BioWare.
Yes, it's just that simple.

[LTKerr]

pirate1802 wrote...

DinoSteve wrote...
tbh I don't think Bioware's forums are anymore toxic that other forums I have been on 

To be honest, BSN seems markedly more visceral than othet gaming forums I visit, but then other devs don't lie as blatantly and screw up their flagship franchise as spectacularly as BioWare does, do they. So that cancels itself out.

My advice to BW would be do some soul searching. Everyone screws up, no biggie. Just make sure it never happens again. Give us the best ME4 you can possibly make. Also, don't lie. Its allright to axe features due to time/budget constraints. Its completely another to do it and then claim on the contrary, knowing fully well you're not telling the truth. Don't make promises you can't keep is all.

I was going to say something like that but sadly I'm absolutely sure Bioware will never be the same, they are done doing RPG's like KotOR or the first Mass Effect to some extent. As Chris Priestly said in these forums some days ago, for Bioware this is ok, it's just an "evolved RPG". The sooner we all accept this is now BEAware the better. ME4 will be worse than ME3: less story, less exploration, more pew pew and more explosions. And of course, it'll be as unpolished and unfinished as ME3.

[crimzontearz]

bioware has a neck for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong people. Nevertheless this is not any more toxic than other forums BUT Bioware did show what appears to be a somewhat downward trend in their games, three so far. So I guess ME4 and DA3 will be the confirmations of whether the forums are too toxic or that Bioware is slipping and the forum environment is just a response to it

[Dragon_Claw]

Maybe David and the rest of Bioware's designers should speak WITH the fans instead of TO them. <_<

Modifié par Dragon_Claw, 21 janvier 2013 - 01:37 .

[StElmo]

Gabe Newell says interacting with your customers is like a dance.

He says the more you engage, the more pacified your fans become - and it's like a currency of enthusiasm you sort of win from that.

I understand why Bioware employees don't bother posting on here, but I also know the forum is getting worse and worse because they are not posting and everyone is just shouting louder and louder.

[Festilence]

I can understand what Gaider is saying to a certain degree but there's two sides to every story and from my perspective I would suggest Bioware haven't exactly handled it all in a great manner, although I appreciate it can't be easy.

Specifically, comments made by members of the team suggest they genuinely lack understanding as to why specific aspects of the game (mostly the endings of course) get so much stick and that is something that boggles my mind.

There is clearly a genuine approach from them in terms of trying to incorporate fan feedback to help improve their games but if anything they could do with toning down that aspect a bit.

For example the Extended Cut, the extra scenes that added clarification, specifically the epilogues were good.  Fan demand for this was high and they provided it and did it well in my opinion.

On the negative side however, the fact that they said that the Extended Cut wouldn't change anything but it did (Normandy bit, Mass Relays no longer be destroyed etc) suggests me that they were never truly sure of how to best end the game.

Either way, I personally still think Bioware make quality games and I'm looking forward to the final Single Player DLC, as well as future Mass Effect and Dragon Age games.

I haven't really browsed the Dragon Age sections much so I can't comment much on that side of things.

Modifié par Festilence, 21 janvier 2013 - 01:48 .

[LucasShark]

You think this is bad: go see the diablo 3 forums.

Besides: the same forums before the release of ME3 were almost flowing with praise and shouts of "take my money", it's the change in tone that took bioware by suprise. Turns out: give people **** instead of gold and they won't be happy, who'd have thought huh?

[LucasShark]

Festilence wrote...

I can understand what Gaider is saying to a certain degree but there's two sides to every story and from my perspective I would suggest Bioware haven't exactly handled it all in a great manner, although I appreciate it can't be easy.

Specifically, comments made by members of the team suggest they genuinely lack understanding as to why specific aspects of the game (mostly the endings of course) get so much stick and that is something that boggles my mind.

There is clearly a genuine approach from them in terms of trying to incorporate fan feedback to help improve their games but if anything they could do with toning down that aspect a bit.

For example the Extended Cut, the extra scenes that added clarification, specifically the epilogues were good.  Fan demand for this was high and they provided it and did it well in my opinion.

On the negative side however, the fact that they said that the Extended Cut wouldn't change anything but it did (Normandy bit, Mass Relays no longer be destroyed etc) suggests me that they were never truly sure of how to best end the game.

That, right there, is part of the problem with comments like the ones released.  Bioware says "they value fan feedback", but that doesn't seem to bare out in the rest of their actions.  Saying it, and actually doing it are very different.  Take for instance their quoting "perfect scores" rather than people's responses.  It's rather as though, the sudden shock of not getting semi-universal praise has given them a confirmation bias.

[LucasShark]

StElmo wrote...

Gabe Newell says interacting with your customers is like a dance.

He says the more you engage, the more pacified your fans become - and it's like a currency of enthusiasm you sort of win from that.

I understand why Bioware employees don't bother posting on here, but I also know the forum is getting worse and worse because they are not posting and everyone is just shouting louder and louder.

That, I can second: at one time there were a lot of people who put significant amounts of thought into their posts, as I try to.  Since however those people have gradually drifted away as they either get fed up or disinterested or both.  It leaves only the zealots of both sides of "liked it" and "hated it".

[ZLurps]

Not ME campaign or story related and Gaider's comment was about DA forums, there are/were some pretty sick things going on, people after Gaider because they can't have their incest romance with protagonists sister or brother or whatever. I don't know more and don't want to know more.

In general however, perhaps BW somehow didn't get the memo that culture where gamers were few are in the past and what happens when you really get attention of the masses. We are not living the times age of Baldur's Gate any more. At these days there is console in almost every home, gaming is just a form of entertainment among others and your product one entertainment product among many.

I think there might be a possibility to special aspect here though, that being that there's demand for something fresh in sci-fi and Fantasy settings.
Star Wars was cool when I was 13 and Star Trek isn't much better and perhaps there were a lot of people who thought we could get a sci-fi franchise to follow without cliche's of older franchises. Something that generations X and Y can feel their own. Maybe many were prepared that okay, things only last for certain time and ME3 may be end of this chapter, but then how it was delivered... Lord.

Masses aren't as stupid as people like to think and perhaps lot's of people thought that this just isn't, not only the way to treat them, but how to treat franchise like ME in general. Also, perhaps people are tired for being "pulled Lost" and realise that if this is allowed to happen without feedback, every product is going to end the same before you can blink your eyes.

[d-boy15]

Not much different from Bethesda forum and Battle-log forum... (and this just example case)

[ZLurps]

LucasShark wrote...

That, right there, is part of the problem with comments like the ones released.  Bioware says "they value fan feedback", but that doesn't seem to bare out in the rest of their actions.  Saying it, and actually doing it are very different.  Take for instance their quoting "perfect scores" rather than people's responses.  It's rather as though, the sudden shock of not getting semi-universal praise has given them a confirmation bias.

Actually if you think of it, there's helluva many things BW changed according to forum feeback.

- People complained about ME2 having less character customising options than in ME1
  In ME3 there's again more attributes where to spend points.
- People loved Mordin singing in ME2
  We get possible two scenes where we hear Mordin singing in ME3
- People complained about lack of weapon variety and modding options in ME2
  There are more weapons in ME3 and modding system came back
- People wanted more inter NPC banter, like elevator discussions in ME1
  ME3 inter NPC dialogue is best I have ever seen.
- People said that Normandy SR-2 in ME2 felt more like a luxury liner than a warship
   In ME3 we get navy "submarine" style Normandy back.
- People complained about levels feeling like corridors in ME2
   Level design was improved a lot in ME3
- People wanted the Citadel levels being more like it was in ME1
  We got fantastic Citadel in ME3

Helluva lot of things were imported even from ME1. Nothing is ever going to satisfy everyone but I haven't seen anything like this even tried since AD&D Gold Box games, and that was in 80's, early 90's.

I could go on and on with the list and yep, there were things that were unadressed, but in general BW listened and answered to a lot of things that came up on forums after ME2 was out.

I hate to say this, but the tragedy is, that it's not a good idea to let your fans to design your game. I really hate to say it, but no matter how many games we play, that still won't make us game producers. There are the people who have that special talent balacing between their own vision and customer feedback to create that product we want, and that's what we are willing to pay for.

Sad, damn sad, how it ended.

[dreamgazer]

Mumba1511 wrote...

Steam user forums is so much worse than the BSN.

There are worse forums, especially those focused on RPGs and science-fiction franchises, but that doesn't mean behavior should be excused since it's "not as bad". 

[78stonewobble]

ZLurps wrote...
Actually if you think of it, there's helluva many things BW changed according to forum feeback.

- People complained about ME2 having less character customising options than in ME1
  In ME3 there's again more attributes where to spend points.
- People loved Mordin singing in ME2
  We get possible two scenes where we hear Mordin singing in ME3
- People complained about lack of weapon variety and modding options in ME2
  There are more weapons in ME3 and modding system came back
- People wanted more inter NPC banter, like elevator discussions in ME1
  ME3 inter NPC dialogue is best I have ever seen.
- People said that Normandy SR-2 in ME2 felt more like a luxury liner than a warship
   In ME3 we get navy "submarine" style Normandy back.
- People complained about levels feeling like corridors in ME2
   Level design was improved a lot in ME3
- People wanted the Citadel levels being more like it was in ME1
  We got fantastic Citadel in ME3

Helluva lot of things were imported even from ME1. Nothing is ever going to satisfy everyone but I haven't seen anything like this even tried since AD&D Gold Box games, and that was in 80's, early 90's.

I could go on and on with the list and yep, there were things that were unadressed, but in general BW listened and answered to a lot of things that came up on forums after ME2 was out.

I hate to say this, but the tragedy is, that it's not a good idea to let your fans to design your game. I really hate to say it, but no matter how many games we play, that still won't make us game producers. There are the people who have that special talent balacing between their own vision and customer feedback to create that product we want, and that's what we are willing to pay for.

Sad, damn sad, how it ended.

I'd say that those examples are also examples on how listening to fans improve your game design.

Obviously neither extreme is optimal unless one side has the "perfect" idea and that allmost never happens. On a more realistic scale the different points of view, if they're handled correctly, can lead to a better game (for the company and the customers) than you would have had.   

[SimonTheFrog]

ZLurps wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

That, right there, is part of the problem with comments like the ones released.  Bioware says "they value fan feedback", but that doesn't seem to bare out in the rest of their actions.  Saying it, and actually doing it are very different.  Take for instance their quoting "perfect scores" rather than people's responses.  It's rather as though, the sudden shock of not getting semi-universal praise has given them a confirmation bias.

Actually if you think of it, there's helluva many things BW changed according to forum feeback.

- People complained about ME2 having less character customising options than in ME1
  In ME3 there's again more attributes where to spend points.
- People loved Mordin singing in ME2
  We get possible two scenes where we hear Mordin singing in ME3
- People complained about lack of weapon variety and modding options in ME2
  There are more weapons in ME3 and modding system came back
- People wanted more inter NPC banter, like elevator discussions in ME1
  ME3 inter NPC dialogue is best I have ever seen.
- People said that Normandy SR-2 in ME2 felt more like a luxury liner than a warship
   In ME3 we get navy "submarine" style Normandy back.
- People complained about levels feeling like corridors in ME2
   Level design was improved a lot in ME3
- People wanted the Citadel levels being more like it was in ME1
  We got fantastic Citadel in ME3

Helluva lot of things were imported even from ME1. Nothing is ever going to satisfy everyone but I haven't seen anything like this even tried since AD&D Gold Box games, and that was in 80's, early 90's.

I could go on and on with the list and yep, there were things that were unadressed, but in general BW listened and answered to a lot of things that came up on forums after ME2 was out.

I hate to say this, but the tragedy is, that it's not a good idea to let your fans to design your game. I really hate to say it, but no matter how many games we play, that still won't make us game producers. There are the people who have that special talent balacing between their own vision and customer feedback to create that product we want, and that's what we are willing to pay for.

Sad, damn sad, how it ended.

Yup, they tried really hard to include many many little things they knew would make the fans happy. Up to the point where it was almost annoying. Like Garrus and everybody saying "Just like old times" more than once. Or where Garrus's calibration meme was brought up several times so that everybody gets it: BioWare knows what fans want and caters.

But that doesn't help much when the general direction is a weird choice. For example i have the feeling BioWars exec's didn't get, how much the fans bonded with the characters ingame. I mean, not by a long shot. That is quite a blatant oversight of you ask me.

[LucasShark]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

LucasShark wrote...

That, right there, is part of the problem with comments like the ones released.  Bioware says "they value fan feedback", but that doesn't seem to bare out in the rest of their actions.  Saying it, and actually doing it are very different.  Take for instance their quoting "perfect scores" rather than people's responses.  It's rather as though, the sudden shock of not getting semi-universal praise has given them a confirmation bias.

Actually if you think of it, there's helluva many things BW changed according to forum feeback.

- People complained about ME2 having less character customising options than in ME1
  In ME3 there's again more attributes where to spend points.
- People loved Mordin singing in ME2
  We get possible two scenes where we hear Mordin singing in ME3
- People complained about lack of weapon variety and modding options in ME2
  There are more weapons in ME3 and modding system came back
- People wanted more inter NPC banter, like elevator discussions in ME1
  ME3 inter NPC dialogue is best I have ever seen.
- People said that Normandy SR-2 in ME2 felt more like a luxury liner than a warship
   In ME3 we get navy "submarine" style Normandy back.
- People complained about levels feeling like corridors in ME2
   Level design was improved a lot in ME3
- People wanted the Citadel levels being more like it was in ME1
  We got fantastic Citadel in ME3

Helluva lot of things were imported even from ME1. Nothing is ever going to satisfy everyone but I haven't seen anything like this even tried since AD&D Gold Box games, and that was in 80's, early 90's.

I could go on and on with the list and yep, there were things that were unadressed, but in general BW listened and answered to a lot of things that came up on forums after ME2 was out.

I hate to say this, but the tragedy is, that it's not a good idea to let your fans to design your game. I really hate to say it, but no matter how many games we play, that still won't make us game producers. There are the people who have that special talent balacing between their own vision and customer feedback to create that product we want, and that's what we are willing to pay for.

Sad, damn sad, how it ended.

Yup, they tried really hard to include many many little things they knew would make the fans happy. Up to the point where it was almost annoying. Like Garrus and everybody saying "Just like old times" more than once. Or where Garrus's calibration meme was brought up several times so that everybody gets it: BioWare knows what fans want and caters.

But that doesn't help much when the general direction is a weird choice. For example i have the feeling BioWars exec's didn't get, how much the fans bonded with the characters ingame. I mean, not by a long shot. That is quite a blatant oversight of you ask me.

I quite distinctly recall a comment from a dev about how shocked they were that people liked Garrus and Tali over the human crewmates in ME1.