60 réponses à ce sujet

[dorktainian]

forums are ok. take the rough with the smooth.

[ZLurps]

78stonewobble wrote...

...snip...

Obviously neither extreme is optimal unless one side has the "perfect" idea and that allmost never happens. On a more realistic scale the different points of view, if they're handled correctly, can lead to a better game (for the company and the customers) than you would have had.   

Yeah, there some pretty obvious problems if think of feedback gathered from forums. First masses are not that stupid that they are going to spend their time arguing with idiots or people they perceive as disturbing freaks. Forum group, would that be "Ashley is a RACIST!" or "Limiting incest out from player experience is cencorship and you should die" start skewing your statistics because they keep getting attention of people who think like that (and trolls) or you start gathering small  crowd on your forums for simple reason that they aren't tolerated elsewhere. At the same time people who actually would present the taste of masses make their own conclusions and leave, or simply don't participate on topics they feel are stupid or something.

In the end, say graphics guys who are in meetings get information how about these romances are now big thing for masses. Then later in meetings they get to hear how people would like to see more female aliens. Implications unpleasant, but they do what they think is asked from them and end up trying to figure out how to apply lipstick on a Krogan.

Modifié par ZLurps, 21 janvier 2013 - 03:12 .

[Daniel_N7]

Here's something I wrote for... some blog. Just my two cents...

It’s easy to compartmentalize the generic problem of the “toxicity of gamer forums” but that’s also a way to circumvent the real issue here.

Fan backlash to Mass Effect 3 was astronomical and BioWare has been deeply hurt by it. Yes, the whiners ruined their year and got in the way of their stroll down the red carpet to the GOTYs.

Maybe we should look back. Remember a time when hundreds, thousands of Mass Effect fan blogs out there on the web were raving about the upcoming Mass Effect 3, for months on end. Celebrating every new video (“femshep trailer yey”), every bit of concept art (“is that a prothean squadmate omg!?”), every piece of music (“omg Clint Mansell is awesome”).

Mass Effect 3 was a sure win. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had set the ground for an absolute homerun. And then something happened that I’ve never seen before in my life as a gamer. You would go through those blogs and it was an emotional wasteland. The ending of the game did that. BioWare/EA’s PR mess made it worse.

Sure, we can compartmentalize the worst of the worst – threats, abuse – to catalog “the fans” and discard this phenomenon. But that’s a questionable way of illustrating everything that happened. Sure, it was a messy flame war – this is the internet, after all. But I remember reading many well spoken, assertive arguments, discussing every single aspect of the game and the ending to realize that the Mass Effect fan community has many educated and interesting members as well.

I feel bad for David Gaider and many talented professionals that have been deeply hurt by all this. But BioWare should make a better effort to maintain an honest and open dialog with its community, and unfortunately that’s not what they did. We’re not all trolls at BioWare Social Network. If BioWare feels alienated from its own community, they need to look within as well.

[ME859]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...



Oh, GTA V won't fail. No chance.

lol that's exactly what I said about ME3 word for word. Not saying it will but ME3 has made me rethink preorders. 

[Brovikk Rasputin]

ME859 wrote...

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...



Oh, GTA V won't fail. No chance.

lol that's exactly what I said about ME3 word for word. Not saying it will but ME3 has made me rethink preorders. 

Two words..

Rockstar Games.

[Anthadlas]

Well it's nice to know that the devs are actively avoiding us on the forums, That's how relations between the fans and the devs got so torn apart in the first place,
Bioware needs to start listening to us again and not EA

[Dragon_Claw]

Daniel_N7 wrote...

Here's something I wrote for... some blog. Just my two cents...

It’s easy to compartmentalize the generic problem of the “toxicity of gamer forums” but that’s also a way to circumvent the real issue here.

Fan backlash to Mass Effect 3 was astronomical and BioWare has been deeply hurt by it. Yes, the whiners ruined their year and got in the way of their stroll down the red carpet to the GOTYs.

Maybe we should look back. Remember a time when hundreds, thousands of Mass Effect fan blogs out there on the web were raving about the upcoming Mass Effect 3, for months on end. Celebrating every new video (“femshep trailer yey”), every bit of concept art (“is that a prothean squadmate omg!?”), every piece of music (“omg Clint Mansell is awesome”).

Mass Effect 3 was a sure win. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had set the ground for an absolute homerun. And then something happened that I’ve never seen before in my life as a gamer. You would go through those blogs and it was an emotional wasteland. The ending of the game did that. BioWare/EA’s PR mess made it worse.

Sure, we can compartmentalize the worst of the worst – threats, abuse – to catalog “the fans” and discard this phenomenon. But that’s a questionable way of illustrating everything that happened. Sure, it was a messy flame war – this is the internet, after all. But I remember reading many well spoken, assertive arguments, discussing every single aspect of the game and the ending to realize that the Mass Effect fan community has many educated and interesting members as well.

I feel bad for David Gaider and many talented professionals that have been deeply hurt by all this. But BioWare should make a better effort to maintain an honest and open dialog with its community, and unfortunately that’s not what they did. We’re not all trolls at BioWare Social Network. If BioWare feels alienated from its own community, they need to look within as well.

+1  

[LucasShark]

Wraith 02 wrote...

Well it's nice to know that the devs are actively avoiding us on the forums, That's how relations between the fans and the devs got so torn apart in the first place,
Bioware needs to start listening to us again and not EA

The simple fact that the extended cut missed a great number of the core reasons why people didn't like the endings, and indeed the fact its epilogues are so shallow speaks volumes on that note...

[78stonewobble]

ZLurps wrote...
Yeah, there some pretty obvious problems if think of feedback gathered from forums. First masses are not that stupid that they are going to spend their time arguing with idiots or people they perceive as disturbing freaks. Forum group, would that be "Ashley is a RACIST!" or "Limiting incest out from player experience is cencorship and you should die" start skewing your statistics because they keep getting attention of people who think like that (and trolls) or you start gathering small  crowd on your forums for simple reason that they aren't tolerated elsewhere. At the same time people who actually would present the taste of masses make their own conclusions and leave, or simply don't participate on topics they feel are stupid or something.

In the end, say graphics guys who are in meetings get information how about these romances are now big thing for masses. Then later in meetings they get to hear how people would like to see more female aliens. Implications unpleasant, but they do what they think is asked from them and end up trying to figure out how to apply lipstick on a Krogan.

Hehe... lipstick Krogan's...

One thing though... 

I cannot believe the developers missed (if they happened to wander onto the forums) the amount of emotions tied up in the squadmates and love interests.

And then try to design an ending that evokes emotions without them (atleast in the original ending).

IMHO that was a gross oversight and it should have been thought off via something as simple as:
"What do the players care about? For happyness add that and for sadness take it away."

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 21 janvier 2013 - 03:35 .

[Yate]

Good thread.

As bad as these forums are, BW could and should have done more to help things.

First off, they need to be EXTREMELY clear about what they're doing.

They need to confirm/deny more things so we can stop this cycle of speculation and disappointment.

If they had done that with Omega it wouldn't have the bad reputation it has right now.

Comparisons have been made with Valve. The main differences between BW and Valve is that Valve can CHAT with the fans. They love the games they make, and they're honest about it. The MP team is very good about this, but I'm not seeing much love from the SP team.

Another major difference of course is that Valve takes their time with things and doesn't release anything unless it's perfect.

[Yate]

back on topic:

BW needs to stop being secretive and cryptic about what they're doing.

This will stop fans from getting unrealistic expectations.

Once fans stop expecting the game/DLC to be the greatest thing ever, the amount of toxicity WILL decrease greatly.

[ZLurps]

78stonewobble wrote...

ZLurps wrote...
Yeah, there some pretty obvious problems if think of feedback gathered from forums. First masses are not that stupid that they are going to spend their time arguing with idiots or people they perceive as disturbing freaks. Forum group, would that be "Ashley is a RACIST!" or "Limiting incest out from player experience is cencorship and you should die" start skewing your statistics because they keep getting attention of people who think like that (and trolls) or you start gathering small  crowd on your forums for simple reason that they aren't tolerated elsewhere. At the same time people who actually would present the taste of masses make their own conclusions and leave, or simply don't participate on topics they feel are stupid or something.

In the end, say graphics guys who are in meetings get information how about these romances are now big thing for masses. Then later in meetings they get to hear how people would like to see more female aliens. Implications unpleasant, but they do what they think is asked from them and end up trying to figure out how to apply lipstick on a Krogan.

Hehe... lipstick Krogan's...

One thing though... 

I cannot believe the developers missed (if they happened to wander onto the forums) the amount of emotions tied up in the squadmates and love interests.

And then try to design an ending that evokes emotions without them (atleast in the original ending).

IMHO that was a gross oversight and it should have been thought off via something as simple as:
"What do the players care about? For happyness add that and for sadness take it away."

Lipstic on Krogan comes from from BW actually, it was someone from graphics dept, appeared in some video interview before ME3 came out. He was explaining challenges they face when they create designs for characters. Would be really funny if it weren't so true.

What comes to it being some sort of suprise for them how attached players were to characters, I don't buy it. There were limits what they could do with time/money they had and at some point you need to decide if you use your budget for making harem simulator or action adventure. I'm glad they choosed the latter option.

[Yate]

P sure that was lipstick turians

[ZLurps]

Yate wrote...

P sure that was lipstick turians

Damn, now you mention it, yeah it was probably Turians. Point still stands though.

[GethPrimeMKII]

This hostility isn't unique to BSN. Its pretty much the way any online forum works. The easiest way to quell the negativity here is to ignore trolls and stop taking disagreements personally.

Regardless of how you feel about ME3's ending or what you believe about it, there's zero reason to be so hostile to someone else with a different opinion. The internet is no excuse to leave one's manners at the door.

Would you start spewing insults at someone who walked away from the same movie with a different interpretation of its plot? Then why in the hell would you do it to someone for picking a different ending than you did?

Bioware could do with less secrecy, but this secrecy does hint that something big is on the way that will greatly please fans, if the fans haven't killed each other by the time the secret gets out.

[Dhoozy77]

Dev need to grow a thicker sink. This place is no more toxic then 99 percent of online community. Even beiber fansite hsve fan girls ggoing at each other throat. Do I need to mention political boards , one word. "Cesspool" if you lime something and have differing view thwn it will turn toxic even public forum. This is nothing new .

[Grubas]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...
...

Bioware could do with less secrecy, but this secrecy does hint that something big is on the way that will greatly please fans, if the fans haven't killed each other by the time the secret gets out.

The last big thing was Omega DLC. If this continues... bioware will have to hype the hype before they can hype their game.

Modifié par Grubas, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:05 .

[ZLurps]

Finn the Jakey wrote...

R

ZLurps wrote...

Yate wrote...

P sure that was lipstick turians

Damn, now you mention it, yeah it was probably Turians. Point still stands though.

Nyreen?

It was about creating designs for alien females in general, pre-ME3 release.

[78stonewobble]

ZLurps wrote...

Hehe... lipstick Krogan's...

One thing though... 

I cannot believe the developers missed (if they happened to wander onto the forums) the amount of emotions tied up in the squadmates and love interests.

And then try to design an ending that evokes emotions without them (atleast in the original ending).

IMHO that was a gross oversight and it should have been thought off via something as simple as:
"What do the players care about? For happyness add that and for sadness take it away."
Lipstic on Krogan comes from from BW actually, it was someone from graphics dept, appeared in some video interview before ME3 came out. He was explaining challenges they face when they create designs for characters. Would be really funny if it weren't so true.

What comes to it being some sort of suprise for them how attached players were to characters, I don't buy it. There were limits what they could do with time/money they had and at some point you need to decide if you use your budget for making harem simulator or action adventure. I'm glad they choosed the latter option.

There is quite a big bit of middle ground between harem simulator and action adventure to actually use (or exploit) the emotional attachment to make your story better.

Not killing off a Li or squadmate took most of the bitter out of bittersweet or sad ending. Not letting Shep survive with Li removed most of the sweet from endings.  

Atleast imho. 

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:09 .

[Fawx9]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Would you start spewing insults at someone who walked away from the same movie with a different interpretation of its plot? Then why in the hell would you do it to someone for picking a different ending than you did?

Never been too many movie forums have you?

Bioware could do with less secrecy, but this secrecy does hint that something big is on the way that will greatly please fans, if the fans haven't killed each other by the time the secret gets out.

Except that in 90% of cases secrecy doesn't mean crap and is only a crutch fans use to build false hope about releases. I'm not even taking BW specifically here. Any type of company is going to keep products at certain points close to their chest. However I'd argue that it's good buisness sense to at least confirm/deny a few things before a week before relase so that you don't have dissapointed customers. 

For example, would it really have been that hard to say no new hub or squad mate for Omega earlier than 2 weeks before relase and then say why? I'd say so considering it normally takes at least a month for verification plus you don't just decide those things at the end of a development cycle.

Modifié par Fawx9, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:11 .

[UrgentArchengel]

Is it really that difficult to try not being a d***? I can understand being disappointed, and what not, but disrespectful? We live in a time, and age where nobody cares how other think, and feel. Zero respect, and consideration. It's like a sociopathic epidemic. I don't blame Mr. Gaider for thinking this. 1 f*** up, and it's the end of the world. One mistake, and people demand heads roll. Any business that involves customers is what I like to call the business of pleasing those who can't be pleased. Look at how spoiled a society we've become. Do I get disappointed with things? Yes, but I don't go around treating people like total garbage when it happens. Life is full of disappointments, get over it. Oh, somebody disagrees with your point of view, what of it? BSN, and places like it are Toxic Enviroments because it's open to the public, and the public in general is so tainted, and corrupt with negativity, and disrespect. Geez, I just turned 20, and I've got better respect then people here who are indeed older. I'm not asking for you to act your age, just learn to grow up.

[fiendishchicken]

Well, if you don't want gaming forums to be toxic, start making better games.

[JamesFaith]

Outsider edge wrote...

Alot has been said these last few weeks about comments made by David Gaider the lead writer for Dragon Age concerning the state of BSN as a in his words toxic environment. But i do wonder what makes BSN different compaired too other gaming forums?

I canť spoke for other gaming sites, but I can compare BSN with our national ME community page. 

Because of language barierre most our fans stick there so site was quite representative. Yes, even there were some fights after release of ME3, but it was never so bad as on BSN. Pro-enders and anti-enders were able to normaly speak with their opponents even few DAYS after release. No death threads and only minimum direct insults and such.

But you know what is interesting? There were few individuals who acted like completely idiots. They were warned and later kicked out with permaban. This is advantage of private sites, you can kick problematic people out more easily then from official ones. But guess who I met later on BSN? Yes, two agressive posters with same nicks like those who were kicked from national site. And that is propably one of reason why BSN was so "toxic" first few months. People who were banned on smaller private ME sites for their agressive behaviour moved to BSN.

And when today is atmosphere on BSN much calmer, reputation of site was severely damaged nad this wouldn't change so easily.

[fchopin]

Daniel_N7 wrote...

Here's something I wrote for... some blog. Just my two cents...

It’s easy to compartmentalize the generic problem of the “toxicity of gamer forums” but that’s also a way to circumvent the real issue here.

Fan backlash to Mass Effect 3 was astronomical and BioWare has been deeply hurt by it. Yes, the whiners ruined their year and got in the way of their stroll down the red carpet to the GOTYs.

Maybe we should look back. Remember a time when hundreds, thousands of Mass Effect fan blogs out there on the web were raving about the upcoming Mass Effect 3, for months on end. Celebrating every new video (“femshep trailer yey”), every bit of concept art (“is that a prothean squadmate omg!?”), every piece of music (“omg Clint Mansell is awesome”).

Mass Effect 3 was a sure win. Mass Effect 1 and 2 had set the ground for an absolute homerun. And then something happened that I’ve never seen before in my life as a gamer. You would go through those blogs and it was an emotional wasteland. The ending of the game did that. BioWare/EA’s PR mess made it worse.

Sure, we can compartmentalize the worst of the worst – threats, abuse – to catalog “the fans” and discard this phenomenon. But that’s a questionable way of illustrating everything that happened. Sure, it was a messy flame war – this is the internet, after all. But I remember reading many well spoken, assertive arguments, discussing every single aspect of the game and the ending to realize that the Mass Effect fan community has many educated and interesting members as well.

I feel bad for David Gaider and many talented professionals that have been deeply hurt by all this. But BioWare should make a better effort to maintain an honest and open dialog with its community, and unfortunately that’s not what they did. We’re not all trolls at BioWare Social Network. If BioWare feels alienated from its own community, they need to look within as well.

+1