31 réponses à ce sujet

[Fuggyt]

I don’t play RPGs to mini-max my characters.  I don’t play RPGs to grind levels.  I don’t play RPGs to farm gear or pwn PKers.  I play RPGs for the RP.  I’m in it for the immersion, the feeling that I’ve left a rather humdrum life in a box somewhere while I attend to the real business of saving the world.  For me, the greatest measure of immersiveness is the degree to which I can create head canon, an unfairly reviled term.  A good RPG presents me with a story and a character and allows me to invent such backstory for myself as is consistent with the narrative.  That’s what made Origins so great to me and what keeps me playing it occasionally to this day.  So I can now say I’ve completed a run-through of all six origins characters (I’ll let you guess at the end which one I did
last) and I’m prepared to rank them.

Human Noble was far and away my favorite.  For immersiveness, it couldn’t be beaten.  The Human Noble subplot was more closely intertwined with the main plot so that its moments of pullback, even little throwaway moments like telling Sergeant Kylon about your rich history with Arl Howe, were more pervasive and involving.  And of course, getting rid of Arl Howe to rescue Anora is essential to the story to get to Loghain, but only the human
noble adds the fillip of revenge to the process.  As a result, the Human Noble has greater agency at the end, deciding between Alistair and Anora, and can even marry onto the throne. 

The stories of Mage, City Elf, and the two Dwarfs are about equal in significance to the main plot—not as important as the human noble but vital when they return to the places of origin. The Mage’s tale offers a little more scope for imagination.  You can decide from the beginning whether you think of the Circle as a home or a prison.  You can treat your elders with the veneration and respect they deserve or, if cynically inclined, you can treat Irving like a spineless, doddering turncoat, Wynne a smug, pompous gasbag, and Greagoir a none-too-bright flatfoot with delusions of adequacy.  There are plentiful NPC dialogues (more in this origin than most of the others, it seemed to me) to support either point of view, the conversation with Duncan being a case in point.  Your involvement with Jowan also adds depth; if you develop the blood mage speciality (and why wouldn’t you?) you might find yourself reflecting that if he’d come clean with you in the first place things might have turned out a lot better.  His surprise return in Redcliff provides an additional echo to your story.

The City Elf’s discovery of Soris in Howe’s dungeon and return to the Alienage in the midst of a plague have emotional resonance.  But unless you let Vaughan live (I know about the 40 gold but I always killed him anyway), there’s not much pullback into the main story.  Similarly, the two Dwarfs are basically shoehorned into their roles in the Orzammer civil war, but I found there was a little more in it with the Dwarven Noble, especially if he had a fling with the noble hunter in the Diamond Quarter.  He has a son to provide for and, like the Human Noble can, finds out at the end that it’s good to be the king.  Meeting Gorim in Denerim is a touching scene as well, although as a plot twist it doesn’t measure up to being double-crossed by Leske as the Dwarf Commoner. 

The Dalish Elf was in my opinion the weakest story.  You guessed it, it’s the one I only just completed; I’d tried to play through it before when I first got the game but I never finished and I just couldn’t come back to it.  I’m sure it’s just me, but I don’t find the Dalish very interesting.  Because they deliberately stay on the fringes of Thedan societies, their situation doesn’t seem as immediate and critical as the other groups.  Certainly they have as much to fear from a Blight as anyone, but they don’t face the kind of segregation and economic oppression routinely faced by their Alienage brethren.  They don’t face the endless warfare and crushing class conflict imposed on the Dwarfs.  They don’t even have treacherous political conspiracies constantly brewing behind the scenes like the Humans. 

The Dalish origin story reinforces this oppression.  You find the mirror that incites the action by accident.  You aren’t attacked by a rival, assaulted by a rapist, imprisoned by the Templars, betrayed by a brother, or set up in a Proving scam and exiled.  You are dragooned into the Gray Wardens merely to save your life, and you might be forgiven for wondering why Duncan couldn’t just give you the antidote and leave joining the Wardens as an option for your gratitude.  You leave your home and never return, so when you do encounter the Dalish in Ferelden it’s another tribe which at least has heard of yours.  Of such small comforts is the Dalish Elf origin made.  Aside from the dialogue with the guard and the early part of the exchange with Zathrian, there are no discernible differences.  Even the pathetic return of Tamlen as a Tormented Shriek provides a momentary shock but the resolution of the subplot has no impact whatsoever on the rest of the story.

I just wanted to get that off my chest.  Thanks for reading.  In summary, the best origin story is the Human Noble and the weakest is the Dalish Elf.  I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Modifié par Fuggyt, 21 janvier 2013 - 07:35 .

[mousestalker]

Whom did you romance with each origin?

[DWSmiley]

I agree the human origin can’t be topped. A loving family that is the second-most important in Ferelden, brutally slaughtered, and a Tim Curry voiced villain to seek revenge on. Plus being recognized throughout the story and the chance to end up as king/queen.

I found the Dalish the least compelling originally but that changed with repeated play. The scene where the clan gathers to say farewell is great. And all Dalish share the close kinship of the oppressed and outcast, so even though it isn’t the warden’s clan one returns to, the warmth of their reception is quite in contrast to that of any other warden. The Tamlen reunion is brief but powerful. But City Elf is my second-most favorite. The ruined wedding is very poignant if played as something the pc was eagerly anticipating. Then there is the opportunity to return home as the saviour not once but twice. Plus two revenge-is-sweet scenarios – Vaughn and Howe. And for both elvish origins, there is the factor of being the hero in a nation that mostly despises you.

I would put the dwarvish origins on the next rung, with an edge for the commoner. The reveal in the Proving is a terrific moment, plus the scene where Duncan recruits you. Then returning to Orzammar and seeing the high and mighty forced to accept you as an honored guest, and the highest and mightiest eager to work with you as an ally. I also find it adds to the depth of the story to play the pc as someone who cares about Mom despite how awful she is. But the noble story is strong, too. Riches to rags, and returning home to what can be a terrible dilemma – choosing between a good-hearted man who believed in you but would make a poor king, or a Machiavellian brother who would make a good king. Plus, as you say, the possibility for a male warden of a child.

The mage is the least interesting from a storyline pov, I find. The pc has almost no attachments – no nation, no family, no love. Just a friend and, if female, a creepy admirer. And so saving the Circle doesn’t has nearly the personal impact of the returning-home scenarios for other origins, for me.

[mousestalker]

Some side notes:

1. The DLC Witch Hunt is very nice for a Dalish Warden.
2. Cullen isn't a creepy love interest in the origin story at all. He's rather nice.
3. Jowan is creepy, but he's never even a potential love interest as he's after Lily.
4. Rica is awesome.
5. The female Aeducan can get her heart broken by Gorim.

[xxEvenstarxx]

I liked Cullen

[xxEvenstarxx]

mousestalker wrote...

Whom did you romance with each origin?

Tried Zev once, then ehhhhh
Pretty much all Alistair lol, and Morrigan once

I mainly redid the human origin story several times, along with some Dalish and City elf, was going to do Aeducan, but my game broke

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Fuggyt wrote...
[Dalish]
You are dragooned into the Gray Wardens merely to save your life, and you might be forgiven for wondering why Duncan couldn’t just give you the antidote and leave joining the Wardens as an option for your gratitude.

I have to correct this bit here. There is no known antidote for Blight sickness, which is what the PC Dalish contracts. The only way to prevent the PC's condition from rapidly getting worse is to go through the Joining, and even that is not a cure. The PC, like any Grey Warden, will continue to succumb to the Taint. The upside is that this decline will be a lot slower than what Tamlen suffers.

The Dalish Origin is the only one where Duncan must recruit the PC to try and save his/her life. In all the others Duncan forces the issue of recruitment, even though helping the PC and letting them go afterwards would have been possible. The DN could have been escorted out of the Deep Roads and released. The DC and CE could have been falsely recruited and let go once the guards were gone. The Mage PC could have been falsely recruited and released once outside the Tower.

No Origin is given a real choice about not joining the Wardens, but the Dalish PC is the one where joining literally saves your life.

xxEvenstarxx wrote...

Tried Zev once, then ehhhhh

Out of curiosity, did you do his whole romance, all the way up to talking to him after the earring gift?

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 22 janvier 2013 - 02:21 .

[Fuggyt]

mousestalker wrote...

Whom did you romance with each origin?

Yet another way being a Human Noble is best.  My male Human Noble Warrior romanced the elf servant, Morrigan, Leliana, Morrigan again, and then Anora.  You don't get that kind of opportunity to be a dog with any other character.

[Fuggyt]

DWSmiley wrote...

I agree the human origin can’t be topped. A loving family that is the second-most important in Ferelden, brutally slaughtered, and a Tim Curry voiced villain to seek revenge on. Plus being recognized throughout the story and the chance to end up as king/queen.

I found the Dalish the least compelling originally but that changed with repeated play. The scene where the clan gathers to say farewell is great. And all Dalish share the close kinship of the oppressed and outcast, so even though it isn’t the warden’s clan one returns to, the warmth of their reception is quite in contrast to that of any other warden. The Tamlen reunion is brief but powerful. But City Elf is my second-most favorite. The ruined wedding is very poignant if played as something the pc was eagerly anticipating. Then there is the opportunity to return home as the saviour not once but twice. Plus two revenge-is-sweet scenarios – Vaughn and Howe. And for both elvish origins, there is the factor of being the hero in a nation that mostly despises you.

I would put the dwarvish origins on the next rung, with an edge for the commoner. The reveal in the Proving is a terrific moment, plus the scene where Duncan recruits you. Then returning to Orzammar and seeing the high and mighty forced to accept you as an honored guest, and the highest and mightiest eager to work with you as an ally. I also find it adds to the depth of the story to play the pc as someone who cares about Mom despite how awful she is. But the noble story is strong, too. Riches to rags, and returning home to what can be a terrible dilemma – choosing between a good-hearted man who believed in you but would make a poor king, or a Machiavellian brother who would make a good king. Plus, as you say, the possibility for a male warden of a child.

The mage is the least interesting from a storyline pov, I find. The pc has almost no attachments – no nation, no family, no love. Just a friend and, if female, a creepy admirer. And so saving the Circle doesn’t has nearly the personal impact of the returning-home scenarios for other origins, for me.

Interesting.  I only played a Dwarf Commoner once and I've forgotten a lot of the details, so I think I'll revisit at least the origin one fine day.  But the Commoner more or less has to go along with Bhelen for his sister's sake, and there's nothing to compare with the satisfaction the Noble can take in slicing up his treacherous brother's weasel head.

[DWSmiley]

mousestalker wrote...

Some side notes:

1. The DLC Witch Hunt is very nice for a Dalish Warden.
2. Cullen isn't a creepy love interest in the origin story at all. He's rather nice.
3. Jowan is creepy, but he's never even a potential love interest as he's after Lily.
4. Rica is awesome.
5. The female Aeducan can get her heart broken by Gorim.

Rica is great but the awesome-in-the-origin award has to go to Nelaros, determined to rescue the woman he just met even if it means attacking the Arl of Denerim's estate single-handed.  Honorable mention to Teyrna Cousland.

Cullen is nice enough in the origin.  'Tis hard now for my mages to not have a sense of foreboding, though.

Gorim, yeah.  His profession of undying love is in the same category as Faryn's 24-hour, lifetime guarentee on used arms and armor.

[bleetman]

Fuggyt wrote...

And of course, getting rid of Arl Howe to rescue Anora is essential to the story to get to Loghain, but only the human noble adds the fillip of revenge to the process.

Just to note, Arl Howe purges the Denerim alienage at some point shortly after Ostagar. When pressed on doing so, he refers to the elves there as animals. Human nobles aren't the only ones who'd want to stab him in the eye out of vengeance, even if it's obviously more acute for them.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

bleetman wrote...

Fuggyt wrote...

And of course, getting rid of Arl Howe to rescue Anora is essential to the story to get to Loghain, but only the human noble adds the fillip of revenge to the process.

Just to note, Arl Howe purges the Denerim alienage at some point shortly after Ostagar. When pressed on doing so, he refers to the elves there as animals. Human nobles aren't the only ones who'd want to stab him in the eye out of vengeance, even if it's obviously more acute for them.

While this is true, and I considered mentioning it myself, the CE loses no one close in the purge. Yes, it's a reason to hate Howe, but it's not as personal as what the HN goes through, losing family, home, friends, and being there to see it all happen. :/

[mousestalker]

My favourite is the city elf. I disliked Howe, quite a lot actually, but hated Vaughan. That hatred tended to spill over to other Origins where he kept running into knives regardless of whether a mage, a dwarf or a fellow noble encountered him in Howe's dungeon.

Nelaros is a truly good man. He helped make the origin a great deal. From a metagaming standpoint, that your father, Shianni and Soris all survive is a bonus for the city elf origin. It and the dwarf commoner origin are the only two where you get to keep your family. Oddly enough they are both favourites of mine.

[bleetman]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

While this is true, and I considered mentioning it myself, the CE loses no one close in the purge. Yes, it's a reason to hate Howe, but it's not as personal as what the HN goes through, losing family, home, friends, and being there to see it all happen. :/

All true.

[Corker]

I really enjoyed my Dalish elf PT. The origin does feel a little thin compared to most of the others, and the 'flashback' encounter (Tamlen) isn't as involved as the others. But if you want to play an angry, lonely outsider, it's great.

I also think you're selling 'Nature of the Beast' a little short. DE was my fifth playthrough, and WOW what a difference. Zathrian's clan are cool and standoffish at best to the other Wardens, but welcoming and kind to a Dalish Warden. It's not as in-your-face as the "Hands to yourself, brand" comments that follow a DC around, or the various slurs a DN gets in Orzammar, but I thought all the camp scenes had a totally different feel. It was like coming home again, but not quite, which fits very well with a more bitter DE PT with alienation themes.

And then yeah, Witch Hunt goes a long way to getting some real closure for a DE Warden, if he didn't die fighting the Archdemon. Ariane has dialogue to specifically address the themes of loss of home/clan/blood identity, and to confirm that the DE is still of the People, even if she has to live apart now.

[DWSmiley]

mousestalker wrote...

My favourite is the city elf. I disliked Howe, quite a lot actually, but hated Vaughan. That hatred tended to spill over to other Origins where he kept running into knives regardless of whether a mage, a dwarf or a fellow noble encountered him in Howe's dungeon.

I tried to think what reason could a different pc have to develop an instant hatred for Vaughn? Turned out all they had to do was ask Soris what he did to end up in prison.

Corker wrote...

Zathrian's clan are cool and standoffish at best to the other Wardens, but welcoming and kind to a Dalish Warden. It's not as in-your-face as the "Hands to yourself, brand" comments that follow a DC around, or the various slurs a DN gets in Orzammar, but I thought all the camp scenes had a totally different feel. It was like coming home again, but not quite, which fits very well with a more bitter DE PT with alienation themes.

Exactly.  And as a fellow Dalish you find out why Sarel is so snarky.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

DWSmiley wrote...

I tried to think what reason could a different pc have to develop an instant hatred for Vaughn? Turned out all they had to do was ask Soris what he did to end up in prison.

I missed it entirely on my first playthrough, asked Soris something else and didn't get to hear that dialogue as a result. But Vaughan was so slimy and unpleasant, even without that knowledge, that I didn't let him out. XD

[Ferretinabun]

Don't wanna rain on anyone's parade for the sake of it, but I think the HN origin is hugely overrated. The origin story itself is emotionally engaging, but rather simplistic. Duncan doesn't actually come across well at all when he recruits you (why is recruiting you actually necessary rather than just saving you?) and the pay-off with Howe when you rescue the queen isn't big enough to make a satisfying conclusion to your personal story.

Also, I simply don't like the idea of the Warden ending up on the throne. You are (oddly) given the role of king-maker and decide that the person who takes the throne will be... your spouse. How very convenient. Why would anyone in Ferelden put up with that blatant nepotism?

Plus humans are usually the least interesting race in virtually any fantasy-world setting.

Just my 2 cents'.

Modifié par Ferretinabun, 23 janvier 2013 - 01:04 .

[emeraldtrader]

personal preference of origin story? Well I am on my 3rd Dalish play (rather like the whole beginning and camp interaction).
Talking to Soris is a must to find out about his bride being kidnapped, and yes Vaughn (always) ends up on the wrong side of a dagger after I get his key from him. Then his ghost haunts the landsmeet. Karma?
played many a mage and human noble. Having Duncan rescue the HN makes more sense the forcing a recruit, but I guess his vision is on the bigger picture.

[DWSmiley]

It's the old "whatever it takes to end the Blight." Duncan badly wants a promising recruit. He initially accepts the Couslands refusing to offer their youngest child, probably to not anger such a powerful family, but now his other candidate, Ser Gilmore, is dead or soon to be. I found killing Howe a satisfying conclusion, even more so if you use the family sword, just as your mother urged.

I agree that the whole, "I appoint x to rule and they will marry me" stratagem should have provoked some response from the Landsmeet.

[mousestalker]

DWSmiley wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

My favourite is the city elf. I disliked Howe, quite a lot actually, but hated Vaughan. That hatred tended to spill over to other Origins where he kept running into knives regardless of whether a mage, a dwarf or a fellow noble encountered him in Howe's dungeon.

I tried to think what reason could a different pc have to develop an instant hatred for Vaughn? Turned out all they had to do was ask Soris what he did to end up in prison.

Exactly, and I made it a point for every one of my Wardens to talk to Soris. It's metagaming to be sure. I participated briefly in an online rpg of DA and was appalled to find that the pretty princess Cousland had of course spared Vaughan. She killed Howe, married Alistair and all was well. Still surprised she didn't have Denerim painted pink.

Modifié par mousestalker, 27 janvier 2013 - 10:17 .

[bleetman]

I think the only thing that sort of bugs me about playing a Dalish is how, for lack of a better term, un-dalishy a lot of what the Warden says can be. For someone who's spent their lives amongst their nomadic clan, they seem to automatically know a whole lot about how human society works.

Well, that and never using any elven words. I understand as to why that is, but it still niggles at me.

[DWSmiley]

bleetman wrote...

I think the only thing that sort of bugs me about playing a Dalish is how, for lack of a better term, un-dalishy a lot of what the Warden says can be. For someone who's spent their lives amongst their nomadic clan, they seem to automatically know a whole lot about how human society works.

Well, that and never using any elven words. I understand as to why that is, but it still niggles at me.

Never thought about that. Now it will niggle at me, too.

[Arkalezth]

I'm playing a dalish right now and I've also noticed the issue bleetman describes (the elf slaver in the Alienage even referred to me as "you humans"). Actually, I wouldn't say it's exclusive to the dalish origin, though it's probably less noticeable in others.

There are some exceptions and special dialogues, but a lot of conversations seem to be written with a human character in mind. I guess a case could be made for city elf, but in the case of dalish or dwarves, many of what the Warden says assumes a good knowledge of the human and Chantry lore.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 29 janvier 2013 - 08:28 .

[fgalkin]

My favorite origin story by far is the City Elf, followed by the Mage. These are the origins when you are forced to choose between folding, or making a stand for what you believe in, and suffering the consequences. The Mage origin is particularly good for that, as you are forced to balance your loyalty to a friend against your duty as a mage.

I've never liked the Human Noble origin for some reason, it just always seemed so ham-fisted and predictably cliched, I knew exactly what was going to happen within minutes of starting it. It's the Generic Fantasy origin, and it shows.

My least favorite one, though, is the Dalish Elf. The Dalish are never really developed beyond being a collection of noble savage stereotypes rolled into one. They don't really feel like an alive, organic culture.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin