212 réponses à ce sujet

[IIFlash]

ISHYGDDT wrote...

IIFlash wrote...

N7Dropout1 wrote...

I'm of the opinion the TGI is a noob class, but who really gives a ****. If you don't like it, don't play the class. 

Snipped the rest. I don't care if someone takes the same char/weapon every game. But I do have issue with them all playing TGI who is cloaking all the time dumping the aggro onto another player, one of the worst games I've had was when I dropped into a PUG with 3x TGI's on Hydra, my Destroyer with all his shields got dropped stupidly fast when I take all the aggro. I also had bad connection to host.

That has more to do with the entire map having a sightline on you over most of Hydra, and Destroyer being slow like turtle.

Just saying.

I understand this, but it will be the same result on any open map and with at least half of the character roster.

[landylan]

But this game has set difficulties. If you suck, you should be playing bronze.

Games like CoD don't have that in their multiplayer. I don't even see the noob tube that much in CoD, and the game wouldn't lose popularity either because people are in love with because they don't try anything new.

[IIFlash]

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

IIFlash wrote...

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

I don't mind crutch characters as much as it "empowering" people who have no business in gold-plat to think they have what it takes to be there. But since there is no (solid) form of knowing if your playing with a pro or a joke, (no consequence) it "doesn't" matter.

If you were to LOSE credits for failing missions

Snipped quote.
I agree with the top part, the 2nd I partly agree. Losing credits makes no sense whatsoever, but gaining no credits I believe does, eg, Bronze/Silver you fail wave 6 or 10 you still get credits, Gold/Plat if you fail you do not get credits from any objective waves completed either. This means "noobs" would not risk wasting their time and people would be more inclined to use equipment/consumables.

This is personal opinion only.

I thought about the 0 credits idea as well, but realized that with that situation only things pugs would be playing the same way they are in platinum now, losing by wave 2 and not even making it to objective roudns. This wouldn't stop them from "attempting" as much as losing credits would either. Not to discredit your point btw, just saying, its really imo unfair that someone should be forced to endure a 25+ minute game or worse, carry and entire team to victory due to 1~3 players being unfit for the difficulty. A few games I've played, unfortunetly, I could have actually done faster if I'd soloed instead of "entrusted" a group of randoms.

I know now though, that random just means 100% chance to *(^$ your game up until your at extraction. At least thats what is needed for me to endure opening up a lobby to public. When I play with randoms, I only use characters and classes I know I can solo gold with if the situation came about.
*and no its not an INF class, usually its one with grenades or some other mass enemy reducing power combo*

I have no issue when I am forced to carry people provided the effort is there, if there is no effort they I will just suicide to save myself the time.
You do not want to stop people "attempting" higher difficulties since this is how they gradually build the skill necessary to play said difficulty, if no-one attempts higher difficulties gradually there will be no-one playing those difficulties. Actually punishing players for failure will never go down well in any game as it takes away incentive to even bother trying.

[Zero132132]

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

If you were to LOSE credits for failing missions, you would see NO NOOBS in gold and platinum.

Then who would ever have started playing Gold? ****, why even bother with Silver if you're more likely to lose money than make it?

You're basically talking about discouraging players from increasing their skill level, or if they're on higher difficulties, from trying new strategies. Why would anyone want that? Wouldn't a completely stagnant playerbase be REALLY boring?

That would be the case if actually progressing in difficulty in this game were increasing "skills" as you say it, rather than increasing in enemy Lifebar/damage/frequency. There is no increasing skill going from bronze to platinum. You learn to play the game a "the right" way, and it will work THE SAME WAY on any difficulty. Only difference that really shows is the same the enemy shows to the player, which is how much damage you do.

(to name a few)
Taking cover at the right moment
Reviving a teamate at the right moment
Knowing when/how to get objectives that will get it done and the wave/game completed
Knowing enemy "reaccuring" AI.

These are all fundementals that can be aquired in BRONZE. Now the "intensity" is different sure. There are alot more enemies that do WAY more damage in platinum. Skillwise though... let me just put it this way.

*real life example*

a buddy of mine (combaticus for those who know my xbl account) played on my account a few times, and because I "have" level X everything and a biscut, he thinks he's pro because he can score high on the crapboard with a couple characters. This man hadent played a game of mass effect before in HIS FY*^&N LIFE and topped the scoreboard in NUMBEROUS random pug gold games. Now I told him what the buttons do and warned him about sync kills and whatnot, the juice of the game, but he still played the game, and better than people who'd been players longer. There wasn't any "skill" to his game, it was simply that I had the right high level weapons, and he applyed the fundementals I mentioned above.

Now back to the topic on hand, I don't want to discourage anyone but people who want "OHH MORE MONEY" from playing gold, when they're selfish greed directs them into my game without the ability to handle whats comming at them. Costing me and my squad time/credits/peace of mind.

You're wrong. Your friend may have played other shooters before. The mechanics aren't that special. If I handed the controller to my sister, even with my manifest, she couldn't handle Gold. She could handle Bronze, probably, maybe Silver with some classes. That's because Bronze is easier. It's easier because it's harder for you to die and it's easier to kill enemies. You can claim it's just a time issue, but being able to take lots of enemy bullets means the game doesn't punish mistakes as severely, and the time required to kill enemies being decreased means that less risk is taken when attacking any group of enemies.

If you don't believe in skill, then why are you bashing anyone that wants to come into your lobby? And why would you want to deprive them of the precious moneys that'll make them exactly as good at handling the game as you are?

Don't be silly.

Either way, punishing failure is a way of promoting stagnation. You'd be punishing people for trying new things if those new things failed, and since people can't know ahead of time whether something's good or not, they'll just use the same crap for a bit, get bored, and leave the game.

[Rapidfire Widow]

IIFlash wrote...

Rapidfire Widow wrote...

I live in Australia so all the OP survivor characters are basically like playing Asari adepts on a good connection. I can only play Gold tbh if a character has above 1300 shields. I don't think the TGI for me is OP or even the Krogan Vanguard, infact I feel pigeon holed to use tanky bulky classes like the destroyer, BatGuard and TGI. I think it's a valid point that there should be some crutch classes so people in far away countries can still extract on Gold. It's to be weighed up against other things of course but it's a valid point nonetheless.

I also live in Australia and have a slow internet connection as well, I pretty much always play on US host, and I have no issue extracting on Gold with any class. Your argument is invalid since it pertains to player skill not connection quality, you just need to adapt.
And yes I also understand that there will always be exceptions to every case.

Sample size of 1. Anyway sure you can extract with any class on a good team, but you will still go down a lot and you will still use more consumables. It's also hard to stay alive one a non tank class when every geth rocket gets you, every banshee warp hits you in the dome, every atlas rocket hits you while you duck into cover. It's not easy to extract on anything but tanky characters.

[Happy Shepard]

This is not a PvP game. BSN, could you please realize that ffs?

And yes, the Stimpacks are stupidly OP and pretty unbalanced, but PLEASE stop blaming the players who use it. I'm sick of it. Nobody cares if you can't top the scoreboard with your hipster Reave+Pull and Acolyte biuld because one n00b refuses to use anything else than a TGI+Harrier.

It's Bioware's fault. They released him. Blame them. Or even EA. This e-peen waving, elitist pseudo-celebrity BS is getting pretty annoying.

And it's quite sad that all of the good posts got buried under childish arguments and moronic proposals to solve all teh problems.

/happy rant

Modifié par Happy Shepard, 22 janvier 2013 - 02:46 .

[whateverman7]

Cyonan wrote...

But the point is that it can apply to ME in the same ways that it can apply to every other game. Your argument isn't about ME specifically as much as it is about Extra Credits' entire point while saying Mass Effect afterwards, because the same arguments can be applied to any game.

BioWare(or any dev) can't plan for for a specific individual to not be bored, no. They can however, try to plan for most people to not be bored. The point that Extra Credits is making is that most people will be bored if the game is way too easy because they can push 1 button over and over and never fail. As I said before, this does not mean that absolutely everybody ever is going to be bored by such mechanics.

If a player is determined to not get better nothing can be done about that. A developer can encourage that they do so however, by rewarding them for evolving and getting better.

no you cant apply the points to ME like other games because the majority of his points was talking about a player vs player and/or competitive view....and ME isnt either of those things...

speaking about ME only, ths game isnt overall easy....even with the so called overpowered characters/weapons, you cant just push 1 button and never fail....just cause there are some combos of things that can make the game easier, doesnt mean the game is easy

no a dev cant...it doesnt matter what a dev puts in a game, if a player doesnt want to get better, he/she isnt...a person will get what they want outta a game...

[whateverman7]

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

Aggreed, im just saying put players into games they need to be, (this would effect the blind-mid game joining thing btw as well) People will do what they want in games. With ME3 pugs however, a VERY LARGE % of them are in gold for credits, not able to handle gold to even poor levels a number of them. If those people were to lose credits for failing at gold, it would deter them from playing unless they knew for sure they were going to achieve success. Unless they enjoyed losing credits/grieving gold-platinum players. (which would be a rediculously small amount) Right now gold pugs have NOTHING TO LOSE, so going into gold and literally leeching is not a problem.

Speaking of, thats a perfect example of "consequence," people were LEECHING THE SHYT out of games before Bioware implemented the 2min kick option, now it wasn't foolproof, (the same people are still playing, just getting 10~20K on an U/U/G match because they are dieing and bleeding out every opportunity they can.) but since they added the "consequence" of not playing, afk leeching has been drasticly reduced. Thats my whole point. What is preventing people from getting better? There being nothing that rewards/ punishes them for getting better, and this doesn't work well in a game where "difficulty" is increased as intensly as ME3MP.

you cant punish everyone to try to encourage a few...and doing something like losing credits for failing at gold is punishing everyone....

also, the fact that people play gold for credits has nothing to do with whether or not people want to get better; that has to do with the store and the store alone...if the store was setup differently, then we could talk about the relationship of getting better/difficulty/players

[Cellodanceparty]

This is a really well done video. It also explains why you see TGIs so often. I am, a little more optimistic than that though. I've seen people blow in with level 1 turian soldiers and revenents and outscore everyone. There's still wiggle room with the skill thing in this game; it's definitely not as bad as it could be, that's for sure. There are "noob" classes, but I see variety often enough in pug matches that it is still enticing to play. I mean, the life of this game speaks in of itself about the skill balance thing, people would not have stuck around so long playing two classes. Well, most people. There are certainly characters that are seen much less often and played much less well, but that's true for any game. Then again, when you duo platinum with voluses and shurikins for the lulz, it gives you a little faith in the ability to pull out the best of near any class.

[thatdamnlobster]

i learned something today

[DullahansXMark]

thewalrusx wrote...

harrier (and to a lesser extent the reager) is a perfect example of a FOO strategy run amok, the the weapons are simply to easy considering their power, so to make them balanced you need to make them either harder to use or less powerful. The best way to fix the harrier would be to revers its in cover out of cover accuracy/stability (in otherwords fix the bug)

The reager should be at least as heavy as the claymore and have a much smaller clip size, this could be counter balanced by giving it (and the harrier) more spare rounds

With the RoF on the Harrier, you'd literally burn through the clip so quickly if you reduced it even a little. Not to mention, the main classes rocking the Harrier (GI and TGI) don't care about weight, so you're only limiting the gun's target audience while making it even better for those it's already good with.

The Reegar could be a somewhat different situation, but I wouldn't approve of the change for its case either.

[DullahansXMark]

Happy Shepard wrote...

And yes, the Stimpacks are stupidly OP and pretty unbalanced, but PLEASE stop blaming the players who use it. I'm sick of it. Nobody cares if you can't top the scoreboard with your hipster Reave+Pull and Acolyte biuld because one n00b refuses to use anything else than a TGI+Harrier. 

It's Bioware's fault. They released him. Blame them. Or even EA. This e-peen waving, elitist pseudo-celebrity BS is getting pretty annoying.

Stim Packs are perfectly fine on the Havoc Soldier. As a matter of fact, in his case they're a stroke of genius. It's the Ghost that makes them ridiculous.

That aside, I do agree with the spirit of most of the stuff you just said (yes, even the parts I deleted).

[sandboxgod]

That video is referring to games driven by player skill. Such as FPS, fighters, and PvP games. In RPGs, they are not driven by player skill but rather by the time you pour into your character.

An RPG, such as this one, presents linear progression. A TGI isn't even unlocked for the average newbie. Take a look at newbie manifests. I just looked at one earlier today. No TGI.

Next, I see lots of bad TGIs. Recall, the newbie has to spec him properly. Also, they might not even have a Harrier 1 to begin with

That video really doesnt aid your argument much at all. It's not directly aimed at RPGs which are not about your personal player skill per se but more about the character and time investment. Sure your player skill plays some factor but your equipment plays a huge role. Those of us with maxed rares would wipe the floor with newbies. If this game had PVP it would be much more obvious why your TGI+Harrier argument is not applicable to this video

[edit] fixed spelling error

Modifié par sandboxgod, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:45 .

[DullahansXMark]

sandboxgod wrote...

Next, I see lots of bad TGIs. Recall, the newbie has to spec him properly. Also, they might not even have a Harrier 1 to begin with

The moment my friend got a Havoc, he spec'd completely out of Stim Packs. My first question was, "Why did you spec into Havoc Strike AND Cryo Blast at the same time?"

Not gonna lie, doing what he did was the worst mistake.

[Ubergrog]

 I have a great idea. how about you stop judging people for how they play the game, seeing as no one is judging you back. 

[DullahansXMark]

Ubergrog wrote...

 I have a great idea. how about you stop judging people for how they play the game, seeing as no one is judging you back. 

But if they can't play the way I play, then they're doing it wrong.

The Fury sucks, and the Slayer is God.

[Wolfsbladex]

upinya slayin wrote...



I found this interesting as it relates to "noobs" and their harrier+TGI and also to missile glitchers as well.

Hm. Interesting.  At least you're able to miraculously distinguish a noob from a regular player that enjoys those classes without asking and not assuming. To take you seriously for one. 

[Cyonan]

whateverman7 wrote...

no you cant apply the points to ME like other games because the majority of his points was talking about a player vs player and/or competitive view....and ME isnt either of those things...

speaking about ME only, ths game isnt overall easy....even with the so called overpowered characters/weapons, you cant just push 1 button and never fail....just cause there are some combos of things that can make the game easier, doesnt mean the game is easy

no a dev cant...it doesnt matter what a dev puts in a game, if a player doesnt want to get better, he/she isnt...a person will get what they want outta a game...

I can apply your arguments to a PvP game in the exact same way you first applied them to Mass Effect if you don't believe me. That EC was talking about PvP games doesn't mean that their points don't also apply to PvE games.

Other than Kroguard/Geth no you probably can't do that and expect to win on Gold/Platinum. It was however, the example that EC was using as an extreme example. Not everybody needs to get to this point before a game is boring.

I don't think that encourage means what you think it means.

Right now, people who are levelling a character are encouraged to play unknown/unknown, because this grants 40% more experience.

Some people may decide they don't care about that bonus and pick a specific map/faction anyway, but that is not relevant. They have been encouraged to pick unknown/unknown even if they didn't go for it.

What Extra Credits is saying is that developers can encourage people to play the harder to play setups by making them perform better than the easy to play ones. You can still play the easy ones if you feel like it, but you are encouraged to learn how to play the harder ones by being rewarded for playing them well.

[jcamdenlane]

I enjoy this game, still. I am willing to play with players who pull their weight solely through the use of seemingly overpowered kits if it is what's needed to draw new players and offset attrition.

[Wolfsbladex]

To an extent this video has exactly what's happening with the Co-Op aspect of ME3 multi:


*That point when the video author talked about Starcraft & how everyone that Zerg Rushed were very successful with it for a long time and farmed it often...until it got nerfed and no one quiet literally knew what else to do (based off how he explained it):


Well now:


*Where are all the Nova-Guards?


*Where are all the Krysae users?


*Where are all the Destroyer/Particle Rifles?


*Where are all of the Geth Infiltrators?


*Where are all of the Acolyte users?


*Where are are all of the Carniferex users? I know for a FACT back in the day this was the most used gun by all Caster classes because it was a reliable gun with high stopping power & offered 200% weight. Well, apparently it was a little too perfect which is why it is on this list


*Where are all the N7 Typoon users?


*Where are all of the Biotic classes?

Do you know what they all have in common? They were nerfed. And not just nerfed; some where nerfed so bad to the point where they literally HAVE NO USE (looking at you Krysae). So just like what happens in the video where the Zerg-rushers had to search for a new strategy because their old was (majorly) nerfed, ME3  players to the same. Unlike the Starcraft nerf incident, ME3 can offer a limit less way around things


*Remember Firebase White/Geth/Gold? Nerfed? Okay. Fine. Now it's Firebase Rio/Reapers/PLATINUM. Moving up the ladder!


It's both a Blessing & Curse with a  bit of counterproductive design choices but hey. A business has to keep Gamers *addicted* and not having *fun* to make a profit. 


(side note)

The Biotic classes weren't directly nerfed, but because we have 110 (over-exaggeration) classes that are Tech (especially the one's that have Overload) prevent the Biotic's regular/full power from being put forward until its too late because of being negated from making Biotic Explosion due to being shutdown by just *one* person's Tech spam. 


Weird, yes, but so is calling a full-blood Engineer a Sentinel giving it the kit Snap Freeze, Incinerate & Overload. 

[IIFlash]

Rapidfire Widow wrote...

IIFlash wrote...

Rapidfire Widow wrote...

I live in Australia so all the OP survivor characters are basically like playing Asari adepts on a good connection. I can only play Gold tbh if a character has above 1300 shields. I don't think the TGI for me is OP or even the Krogan Vanguard, infact I feel pigeon holed to use tanky bulky classes like the destroyer, BatGuard and TGI. I think it's a valid point that there should be some crutch classes so people in far away countries can still extract on Gold. It's to be weighed up against other things of course but it's a valid point nonetheless.

I also live in Australia and have a slow internet connection as well, I pretty much always play on US host, and I have no issue extracting on Gold with any class. Your argument is invalid since it pertains to player skill not connection quality, you just need to adapt.
And yes I also understand that there will always be exceptions to every case.

Sample size of 1. Anyway sure you can extract with any class on a good team, but you will still go down a lot and you will still use more consumables. It's also hard to stay alive one a non tank class when every geth rocket gets you, every banshee warp hits you in the dome, every atlas rocket hits you while you duck into cover. It's not easy to extract on anything but tanky characters.

Wow! this is not what I said at all, and what applies to you doesn't necessarily mean it applies to everyone else. I also mentioned nothing of easy or hard, you pretty much stated that you can't extract on Gold without crutch classes and because of that you blame lag. 
I am in no means the only person that can play on laggy connection without issue either there are many others, eg, Red John and Lord Sirian and both known to have bad connections and are considered to be some of the best players around.

[IIFlash]

OT: in the video 4:40 = FBWGG

[Kalas Magnus]

landylan wrote...

But this game has set difficulties. If you suck, you should be playing bronze.

qft

[Zjarcal]

sandboxgod wrote...

Next, I see lots of bad TGIs. Recall, the newbie has to spec him properly. 

Lol, you're implying that all bad TGIs are only bad because they specced him wrong. Some players just suck no matter how good the kit they're playing is. That pretty much kills your "skill" argument.

DullahansXMark wrote...

sandboxgod wrote...

Next, I see lots of bad TGIs. Recall, the newbie has to spec him properly. Also, they might not even have a Harrier 1 to begin with

The moment my friend got a Havoc, he spec'd completely out of Stim Packs. My first question was, "Why did you spec into Havoc Strike AND Cryo Blast at the same time?"

Cryo blast them and then strike? Havoc strike certainly needs all the help it can get, I'm not gonna skip out on 25% more damage for it especially when cryo blast's cooldown is so short.

I don't skip stim packs on the Havoc though.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 22 janvier 2013 - 05:43 .

[Lord Rosario]

upinya slayin wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Eelectrica wrote...

I think we all know when a character and weapon combo is ridiculously easy.
But sometimes after a long, tiring day at work it's exactly what you want. Something easy to unwind with.

Sometimes luck is out with the store so playing something easy for easy credits helps allieviate some of that frustration too.

Spending well over 1million credits and getting nothing, seems the reward isn't there, so brute force it with an easy mode character combination.

there is nothing wrong with having them in the game for people to have a more accessable game, the issue is when people rely on it too much they wind up losing out on alot of experiances and losing out on developing a skill and feel for the game. and if somehting happens to the kit (a nerf) they can't handle it and they basically give up.

That is, if a new player can get the TGI [new rare card] and a good assault rifle [probably an ulta rare] and genade gear [several rare cards] to go with it before they adopt something else. By the time the've got everything to pull off the OP TGI, they've likely gained quite a bit of skill.

BW gave eveyrone a harrier who dind't have one on 11/07/12. anyone who logged on taht day w/o a harrier got one.

So.. If a newbie happened to log in 9 months after release [while still being a newbie], they got the assault rifle component of the three things I just mentioned..? So they still have to get the crutch character you speak of and those grenade gears, all while still being a newbie. Then they have all they need to have this OP character, and don't even likely have the mods or consumables to pull off much with it. Is that correct?

What are the odds.. It makes sense in the video for something like a special punch move that all characters can do being clung onto by players.. But for a game with 59 playable characters, 55 weapons, 36 mods, and tons of abilities spread out between the characters which ALL have to be unlocked through play, I do not think a newbie is going to somehow get that exact combination and play it non stop to the point that they can't play anything else and get bored...