212 réponses à ce sujet

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Bump. Let's make it reach 20 pages.

It also needs more gifs.


Nerf all the things. For Balance!

[Ronnie Blastoff]

Zero132132 wrote...

You're wrong. Your friend may have played other shooters before. The mechanics aren't that special. If I handed the controller to my sister, even with my manifest, she couldn't handle Gold. She could handle Bronze, probably, maybe Silver with some classes. That's because Bronze is easier. It's easier because it's harder for you to die and it's easier to kill enemies. You can claim it's just a time issue, but being able to take lots of enemy bullets means the game doesn't punish mistakes as severely, and the time required to kill enemies being decreased means that less risk is taken when attacking any group of enemies.

If you don't believe in skill, then why are you bashing anyone that wants to come into your lobby? And why would you want to deprive them of the precious moneys that'll make them exactly as good at handling the game as you are?

Don't be silly.

Either way, punishing failure is a way of promoting stagnation. You'd be punishing people for trying new things if those new things failed, and since people can't know ahead of time whether something's good or not, they'll just use the same crap for a bit, get bored, and leave the game.

Now I didn't say my buddie didn't ever play a shooter before, just pointing out (as an EXAMPLE) that skill isn't what makes a difference in success from bronze to platinum, its just a longer period of applying the fundamentals, and/or overcomming the enemies overpowering with your own. (missles, grenades, sheer weapon damage)

Also, my idea for "punishing" people who failed at gold was also an example. (just making sure people got that ) If implemented ALOT of things would have to change about this game to make it work. Although I don't aggre that it is a way to promote stagnation. This game is ALREADY stagnant.  And I don't bash anyone who comes into my lobby, (i've learned to accept pugs are pugs and am willing to carry them, N7 1 with avenger 1 and all, as long as they have on FULL equipment and show that they want to win, and aren't just along for easy credits.)

Back to point, I go with the idea because, as you put it its as if you think a person who lost 1~2 games on gold and lost credits because of it would completely quit the game. Thats not the case at all. They'd either learn to adjust (get better at the game, not skillwise, just actually pay attention) or accept playing at a lower difficulty, or quit. With those who would quit being those who would have eventually quit the game for some other reason. Look at the # of pugs who don't put on equipment in gold. Its at least 80% of the time. Its not because they think gold is easy, its because its no consequence in playing gold if they lose when they play without consumables. Ask 100 pugs in gold lobbies to put on equipment, even level 1 stuff..

30% of them will
20% of them will just plain not respond at all and/or quit.
50% of them will bit*h and moan about why they don't need it or some other excuse of why they shouldnt put it on.

Reason I go with it as well, at the moment, these nubs in gold that don't belong aren't getting any better anyway, they are constantly getting either a free ride, barely cutting it, or just plain out failling completely. That is being stagnant. Putting them back into silver (because there is a LARGER consequence of losing gold) would force those who really want those credits to actually work for them. If they can't cut it, then there are 100s of other games out there.

Excuse me if I come off harsh, but there is a thread out there with a quadriplegic (don't know if I spelled that right) who soloed gold. I have no sympathy
for these piece of shyt nubs that come into my lobby and can't make it
past wave 1 without getting revived 10 times. I'd love to have Moi123 on
my squad over these waste of space azzclowns I have to endure daily
anytime of the f*ckin week. Moi123 plays ME3 with a stick in his
mouth...theres no excuses for this BS people try and slide in gold when this guy has learned to adapt.

[Si7ent Sigh]

Interesting video. So, is the Harrier the "nail in the board" strategy? : )

Totally joking, its the only non water gun assault rifle.

[Deerber]

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

You're wrong. Your friend may have played other shooters before. The mechanics aren't that special. If I handed the controller to my sister, even with my manifest, she couldn't handle Gold. She could handle Bronze, probably, maybe Silver with some classes. That's because Bronze is easier. It's easier because it's harder for you to die and it's easier to kill enemies. You can claim it's just a time issue, but being able to take lots of enemy bullets means the game doesn't punish mistakes as severely, and the time required to kill enemies being decreased means that less risk is taken when attacking any group of enemies.

If you don't believe in skill, then why are you bashing anyone that wants to come into your lobby? And why would you want to deprive them of the precious moneys that'll make them exactly as good at handling the game as you are?

Don't be silly.

Either way, punishing failure is a way of promoting stagnation. You'd be punishing people for trying new things if those new things failed, and since people can't know ahead of time whether something's good or not, they'll just use the same crap for a bit, get bored, and leave the game.

Now I didn't say my buddie didn't ever play a shooter before, just pointing out (as an EXAMPLE) that skill isn't what makes a difference in success from bronze to platinum, its just a longer period of applying the fundamentals, and/or overcomming the enemies overpowering with your own. (missles, grenades, sheer weapon damage)

Also, my idea for "punishing" people who failed at gold was also an example. (just making sure people got that ) If implemented ALOT of things would have to change about this game to make it work. Although I don't aggre that it is a way to promote stagnation. This game is ALREADY stagnant.  And I don't bash anyone who comes into my lobby, (i've learned to accept pugs are pugs and am willing to carry them, N7 1 with avenger 1 and all, as long as they have on FULL equipment and show that they want to win, and aren't just along for easy credits.)

Back to point, I go with the idea because, as you put it its as if you think a person who lost 1~2 games on gold and lost credits because of it would completely quit the game. Thats not the case at all. They'd either learn to adjust (get better at the game, not skillwise, just actually pay attention) or accept playing at a lower difficulty, or quit. With those who would quit being those who would have eventually quit the game for some other reason. Look at the # of pugs who don't put on equipment in gold. Its at least 80% of the time. Its not because they think gold is easy, its because its no consequence in playing gold if they lose when they play without consumables. Ask 100 pugs in gold lobbies to put on equipment, even level 1 stuff..

30% of them will
20% of them will just plain not respond at all and/or quit.
50% of them will bit*h and moan about why they don't need it or some other excuse of why they shouldnt put it on.

Reason I go with it as well, at the moment, these nubs in gold that don't belong aren't getting any better anyway, they are constantly getting either a free ride, barely cutting it, or just plain out failling completely. That is being stagnant. Putting them back into silver (because there is a LARGER consequence of losing gold) would force those who really want those credits to actually work for them. If they can't cut it, then there are 100s of other games out there.

Excuse me if I come off harsh, but there is a thread out there with a quadriplegic (don't know if I spelled that right) who soloed gold. I have no sympathy
for these piece of shyt nubs that come into my lobby and can't make it
past wave 1 without getting revived 10 times. I'd love to have Moi123 on
my squad over these waste of space azzclowns I have to endure daily
anytime of the f*ckin week. Moi123 plays ME3 with a stick in his
mouth...theres no excuses for this BS people try and slide in gold when this guy has learned to adapt.

I didn't read the entire thread and the replies, but this struck me so I guess I would comment...


What if I told you I was one of those noobs once?

[HolyAvenger]

Deerber wrote...

What if I told you I was one of those noobs once?

x2.

So were we all.

[mistervirginia]

upinya slayin wrote...



I found this interesting as it relates to "noobs" and their harrier+TGI and also to missile glitchers as well.

who cares if you play a TGI with a Harrier? this is one of my fav kits but not because he's "easy" by any stretch.  i play a Stim-packless TGI.  i have a lot of fav kits.  i wish i liked more but tbh most of them kill much slower (less dps) than my fav ones.

[Riot Inducer]

The video had a lot of good insights but I don't think many of them are really applicable to ME3 MP. For one it is a co-op game whereas almost everything talked about in the video was based around competitive games, so short of BioWare continually adding new enemy types or straight up nerfing things there's little that can be done to throw a wrench into our "FOO strategies".

Also I don't think you can really apply the idea of a "FOO" or First Order Optimal Strategy to things like the Krogan Vanguard or Harrier+TGI due to the random way we acquire characters and weapons in this game. The video states that FOO strategies are meant to be acquired early but quickly replaced by better strategies. But because of the random nature of the store these "crutch" classes and setups can very easily be the very last thing a player acquires. In fact to have the big bad Harrier+TGI setup you need a very specific ultra-rare weapon, rare character and likely several upgrades of very specific gear. By the time most players get even a Harrier I & basic TGI appearance they've likely tried a plethora of other characters and strategies and most likely have moved beyond what is widely considered being a "noob".

[whateverman7]

Cyonan wrote...

I can apply your arguments to a PvP game in the exact same way you first applied them to Mass Effect if you don't believe me. That EC was talking about PvP games doesn't mean that their points don't also apply to PvE games.

Other than Kroguard/Geth no you probably can't do that and expect to win on Gold/Platinum. It was however, the example that EC was using as an extreme example. Not everybody needs to get to this point before a game is boring.

I don't think that encourage means what you think it means.

Right now, people who are levelling a character are encouraged to play unknown/unknown, because this grants 40% more experience.

Some people may decide they don't care about that bonus and pick a specific map/faction anyway, but that is not relevant. They have been encouraged to pick unknown/unknown even if they didn't go for it.

What Extra Credits is saying is that developers can encourage people to play the harder to play setups by making them perform better than the easy to play ones. You can still play the easy ones if you feel like it, but you are encouraged to learn how to play the harder ones by being rewarded for playing them well.

yes it does mean the points dont apply because ME takes away player skill vs player skill, which most of his points were talking about...the incentive of getting better to do better against others doesnt exist in ME

just like whether people want to get better at a game is individual, so is the point people get bored

now i dont know the meaning of words cause we disagree? lol i'm done....

[Dracian]

Given the general level of gold PUG these days, I'd say that I'm glad to see a noob killing something with his crutch class.

[Ronnie Blastoff]

Deerber wrote...

I didn't read the entire thread and the replies, but this struck me so I guess I would comment...


What if I told you I was one of those noobs once?

HolyAvenger wrote...

x2.

So were we all.

Yes we were all nubs once, these nubs on the other hand aren't getting better. Not only that they are taking advantage of the horrible system and getting almost free credits and gear while more veteran players put in a larger portion of work for them.

Now if you guys were once THAT kind of nub, then I'm glad you decided to change and get better, because a large majority of people aren't. They are still in gold-platinum lobbies, burdening themselves and everyone else, playing without equipment because they aren't willing to lose anything, and spending 25~35 minute games getting 15k total points in an U/U/G match. (not that score makes a significant impact on judgement, as long as someone plays their part I don't mind their score, but these nubs just aren't putting in enough effort)

[HolyAvenger]

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...


Yes we were all nubs once, these nubs on the other hand aren't getting better. Not only that they are taking advantage of the horrible system and getting almost free credits and gear while more veteran players put in a larger portion of work for them.

How do you know, are you stalking their N7HQs or something?

[upinya slayin]

Lord Rosario wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Lord Rosario wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

Eelectrica wrote...

I think we all know when a character and weapon combo is ridiculously easy.
But sometimes after a long, tiring day at work it's exactly what you want. Something easy to unwind with.

Sometimes luck is out with the store so playing something easy for easy credits helps allieviate some of that frustration too.

Spending well over 1million credits and getting nothing, seems the reward isn't there, so brute force it with an easy mode character combination.

there is nothing wrong with having them in the game for people to have a more accessable game, the issue is when people rely on it too much they wind up losing out on alot of experiances and losing out on developing a skill and feel for the game. and if somehting happens to the kit (a nerf) they can't handle it and they basically give up.

That is, if a new player can get the TGI [new rare card] and a good assault rifle [probably an ulta rare] and genade gear [several rare cards] to go with it before they adopt something else. By the time the've got everything to pull off the OP TGI, they've likely gained quite a bit of skill.

BW gave eveyrone a harrier who dind't have one on 11/07/12. anyone who logged on taht day w/o a harrier got one.

So.. If a newbie happened to log in 9 months after release [while still being a newbie], they got the assault rifle component of the three things I just mentioned..? So they still have to get the crutch character you speak of and those grenade gears, all while still being a newbie. Then they have all they need to have this OP character, and don't even likely have the mods or consumables to pull off much with it. Is that correct?

What are the odds.. It makes sense in the video for something like a special punch move that all characters can do being clung onto by players.. But for a game with 59 playable characters, 55 weapons, 36 mods, and tons of abilities spread out between the characters which ALL have to be unlocked through play, I do not think a newbie is going to somehow get that exact combination and play it non stop to the point that they can't play anything else and get bored...

you don't play alot of PUGs do you? I remember one game. me and 1 friend started it as a duo, him using a GI javelin, I was using a squishy character (I can't remeber exactly which one but it was a non infiltrator) we got geth and dagger/ during wave 1 2 new players drop in, both TGIs with harriers. by wave 4 1 of them quit and during the same wave another one joined with a TGI and harrier. all the aggro was dumped on me all game and we had 3 randoms in a row all using a TGI harrier. so wtih your numbers whats teh odd of them using that combination 3 times in a row? less then 1 %?

soo your problem is that your assuming every kit is used equally. Its not. infiltrators are the most use dclas and the TGI is the most used character. look at the stats over the past 4 months. People look online for advice or for an easy combo and they all see TGI+harrier so they use it:whistle:

also characters are easy to unlock and you don't even need grenade cap for stimpacks. 2 is more then enough

[upinya slayin]

PhoenixUK wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...


i agree in a co-op game it doens't really matter, but in the same sense its the poeple who are unaware. forinstance player A is a dcent player. can do gold with a TGI but other then that not really. Player B is a good player who does gold with about anything. A takes his TGI harrier and B takes his volus eng with claymore. Player A outscores player B and talks trash. SO player B feels compelled to return teh favor. he doens't wan to but takes the GI to prove a point. both are now using the TGI. player B utscores player A this time and player A rage quits after the game (or even during) cause his e-peen was hurt. so player B played a character he idn't want to to prove a point and player A just wasted his time competing for no reason before cycling again to someone else.

then players A and B need to grow up.

Maybe i shouldnt be in this thread though, im only a casual gamer, i just dont take it that seriously

i agree with you on that part. However let me put it this way. open map, geth, only non infiltrator. That isn't fun. so if your in a lobby and 3 TGIs come in, if you choose to play as a non infiltrator you'll have 100% of the aggro on you the whole game. Thats not fun is it?

[Zero132132]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...


Yes we were all nubs once, these nubs on the other hand aren't getting better. Not only that they are taking advantage of the horrible system and getting almost free credits and gear while more veteran players put in a larger portion of work for them.

How do you know, are you stalking their N7HQs or something?

X2

[upinya slayin]

IIFlash wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

BW gave eveyrone a harrier who dind't have one on 11/07/12. anyone who logged on taht day w/o a harrier got one.

Slayn Pls, this is not true. My 2nd profile got Particle Rifle and a friend new to the game also got Particle Rifle, neither have a Harrier.

lol. Interetsing. on the forums when in the N7 pack thread, eveyrone with all their URs unlocked got a N7 weapon (with the valkeryie being the mos common one) and anyone w/o a harrier said they got the harrier. I only seen people say they got a harrier ot valkeryie pretty much.

[DragonRacer in Mourning]

upinya slayin wrote...

IIFlash wrote...

upinya slayin wrote...

BW gave eveyrone a harrier who dind't have one on 11/07/12. anyone who logged on taht day w/o a harrier got one.

Slayn Pls, this is not true. My 2nd profile got Particle Rifle and a friend new to the game also got Particle Rifle, neither have a Harrier.

lol. Interetsing. on the forums when in the N7 pack thread, eveyrone with all their URs unlocked got a N7 weapon (with the valkeryie being the mos common one) and anyone w/o a harrier said they got the harrier. I only seen people say they got a harrier ot valkeryie pretty much.

I got a Talon that day. Then again, I already had a Harrier from before and a Valkyrie from the previous weekend's operation. The Talon was the only UR at that point that I did not at least have one of, and I got it. Was quite pleased.

[sandboxgod]

 Funny thing is when I played with Upinya slayin a few times I used a TGI+Harrier 

I don't play with him anymore. Mostly cause I maxed his 200 waves challenge. When that happens I usually move on to a new character. I really should start ignoring the Challenge system. Doesnt give me any credits or anything. And I already got the banners I wanted. Okay, I'd like the Best of the Best banner but I'd never put it on when I'm PUGing anyways

[upinya slayin]

sandboxgod wrote...

 Funny thing is when I played with Upinya slayin a few times I used a TGI+Harrier 

I don't play with him anymore. Mostly cause I maxed his 200 waves challenge. When that happens I usually move on to a new character. I really should start ignoring the Challenge system. Doesnt give me any credits or anything. And I already got the banners I wanted. Okay, I'd like the Best of the Best banner but I'd never put it on when I'm PUGing anyways

Lol i never even noticed. I don't even really pay attention to layouts. Its funny though cause (and don't take offense) But alot of times when i play with someone for the 1st time from BSN they run a TGI harrier and put on their try hard pants. And i still never understand why??

[sandboxgod]

Yeah at the time I didn't want you to think I was some scrub looking to get carried so I pulled out my best kit. So what you say is true.

[thearbiter1337]

That sadly sounds like my KroGuard days;I saw it was so OP and then i continued to use it then i was like "Damn this is OP" and stopped using it and went back to my Geth Engiee and QFI (Which are my 2 best classes to this day)

then on here everyones like "AMG I BIOTICS" then i tried using some of the Adepts (Which i sucked at using) so i went back to meh tech classes (Which i'm good at using)


So due to my KroGuard days;I now suck with Biotics (But i'm good with the N7 Fury but then again that's a tad OP too)

[NoSkilledPlayer]

I got my 1st aid medal last weekend by reviving the SAME guy 5 times. Guess what he used? The TGI ! It was at level 15. Note, he did not do it on purpose. I play 3 games with him, and revived him at least 3 times each match.

[sandboxgod]

Yeah on one hand the video is relevant to ME3. But I think Bioware did a decent job encouraging players to try new classes with the Challenge system. Plus the RNG store makes it tough to unlock what new players may really want. So they might not get the Kroguard for quite awhile. I know it took me forever+ to unlock Kroguard & Salarian Infiltrator.

In regards to the TGI you really want Warfighter V or Grenade Capacity V. Plus you want a Harrier or PPR (particle rifle). Not to mention you probably want Ammo capacity at 5

It's too easy for us to forget how long it takes noobs to unlock all that.

[upinya slayin]

sandboxgod wrote...

Yeah at the time I didn't want you to think I was some scrub looking to get carried so I pulled out my best kit. So what you say is true.

Lol and thats kinda my point. Its just a game. I can care less who scores what. But either people don't want to look like a scrub or they want to compete for score with me. Either way the TGI harrier come sout. spawns get missiled, etc.

What there missing is the fact taht i'm not gonna compete in a childish thing and i'm also not gonna judge someone by their score. I just like to have fun. I've had plenty of people nervous about playing gold when they've played with me the 1st time cause they were silver players and i said don't worry about, we'll pass no matter what. You don't need everyone lighting up the scoreboard to beat gold

[Derp88]

I still run some of the "crutch" classes (still don't really like the term in a co-op PvE game) when I just want to relax. Takes less effort, so don't have to concentrate so hard.

[Megakoresh]

Well, I am not exactly sure if it's the same for everyone but I did not hear anything in the video that I did not already know. BioWare has only failed in one of those balancing issues: the one mentioned at 4:30.

The buff/nerf game could, of course be just for marking to incentivise people to play more (which is a good marketing choice) or to buy items with real money, like it happens almost after every DLC release (which is a terrible choice).

For instance when people discovered the power of Krysae it was obviously abused for farming credits, however instead of balancing it for skill and getting rid of the real problem with the gun, which was it's extremely low skill requirement, they simply nerfed the gun effectively eliminating the use for it completely. Why? Because more skillful players could always use Javelin or Widows and be far more effective, and less skillful players couldn't use the gun to neither play effectively nor improve their skill.

They [BioWare] could have nerfed projectile size, increased projectile speed, make it only detonate on immediate contact with the enemy. In all of those cases, since the gun would still be as effective, it would incentivise people to play with it more and learn the game before trying out something more skillful.

There is a reason that you stop acquiring skill and improving at the game if you always play with PuG games. Those games develop and play the way game is designed. Only with your friends you can actually improve because that environment is controlled by the players way more.

You still remember Geth on Noveria right? Well, for all those who did not get the required equipment to make Gold and Platinum enjoyable before Noveria was changed, I can say for sure: they are not playing the MP anymore.