212 réponses à ce sujet

[Barneyk]

I didn't really like the intro and felt skeptical, but it turned out to be a great video with nice and simple conclusions.

[sandboxgod]

Another thing bout that video as people pointed out multiple times- it's aimed at PvP games. Here in Me3 it matters much less if a person sticks to a TGI+Harrier because they just need to learn how to get better to beat the AI. They dont need to learn other classes EVER. Never ever ever.

Once you learn how the 'spawns' work then you can use any class. Nowadays I can switch to Asari justicar, AA, SI, Asari huntress, etc and roughly still score the same and clutch a wave because I've come to understand how to distract the spawns (make a circuit). I've learned not to rush the LZ on harder modes. I've learned not to always rush in to revive a teammate if they got a Banshee standing over them

The class you use really doesnt matter. Plus you get the best scores by nuking spawns anyways and any class can do that

[YachiruChin]

LoL @ the Noob Tube!

Actually funny how true this video is. I started CoD4 spamming noob tube and later on saw myself only playing snipers and smgs raging everytime I got killed by a noob tube or a random grenade.

[GodTukka]

I'd like to think my Drell Assassin isn't a crutch class what with the very low survivability especially since i have 0 in the fitness power tree (equipped with a Black Widow but still)

[The Sir Tendeth]

The comments related to this being a RPG in origin, are even more significant than whether or not its a PvP game.

First and foremost the game should help provide some kind of attachment to what you are playing (Role Playing) while offering enough variety for those not specifically interested in the Mass effect Universe. Which in large part it seems to do based on the number of Krogans that post on the forums.

In the video the give the example of the the rush receiving a nerf and people leaving the game in frustration. And this is used by previous posters as why people shouldn't use one kit too much.
But how would that kit ever get nerfed if Bioware never needed to nerf it because its not PvP?

There is an underlying store that needs to drive purchases and people becoming overly concerned with credits actually can work against it. If reduces the purchases made in the store, and probably more importantly, people only play one kit and use one strategy, removing variety and taking away others ability to RP in the game. Then it hurts the store and lessons the amount of people playing.

To drive skill and variety, the weekend challenges have been great. "some" of the nerfs not so much because they hurt some kits to the point where playing them wasn't fun for the people who wanted to.

Very minor nerfs and the use of buffs and weekend challenges seem to be the best way to move the player base with out creating a sudden disconnect. Ultimately I would expect just about any player to be super good at something if they put hundreds of hours into playing it. To be discussed in another post.

[Cyonan]

Megakoresh wrote...
For instance when people discovered the power of Krysae it was obviously abused for farming credits, however instead of balancing it for skill and getting rid of the real problem with the gun, which was it's extremely low skill requirement, they simply nerfed the gun effectively eliminating the use for it completely. Why? Because more skillful players could always use Javelin or Widows and be far more effective, and less skillful players couldn't use the gun to neither play effectively nor improve their skill.

They [BioWare] could have nerfed projectile size, increased projectile speed, make it only detonate on immediate contact with the enemy. In all of those cases, since the gun would still be as effective, it would incentivise people to play with it more and learn the game before trying out something more skillful.

They were restricted by the weekly balance changes at the time, which they couldn't alter the projectile like that with them.

whateverman7 wrote...
yes it does mean the points dont apply because ME takes away player skill vs player skill, which most of his points were talking about...the incentive of getting better to do better against others doesnt exist in ME

just like whether people want to get better at a game is individual, so is the point people get bored

now i dont know the meaning of words cause we disagree? lol i'm done....

I'm saying you probably don't know the meaning of words because you're saying BioWare can't do something they already do to an extent.

[The Sir Tendeth]

After hundreds of hours if like in the video the street fighter game makers had no PvP for variety, and kept ramping the difficulty for everyone to satisfy the challenge needs for the few veterans.

Not only would it be a turn off for new players, it would be frustrating for people having put in so many hours to keep fighting the same characters but failing even though they could swear they had mastered it. for all but those looking to have there name the high score list. Like George Jetson running on a treadmill they wouldn't feel like they were progressing because they still couldn't defeat the end bosses reliably.

adding difficulties helps greatly and is a better way in my opinion to keep the challenge there. Adding new factions is great but impractical to do to frequently, and adding enemy numbers would be excellent for the challenge and for RPing, but is technically unfeasible.

In summary for "Me" I would like the ME universe to stay fairly consistent from a learning and RPing stand point, and adjustments be mainly made to get rid of extreme problems like missile glitching. And Weekend challenges(could be daily challenges as far as I'm concerned), and new difficulties like Diamond be used to keep vets on board, with slight buffs to encourage other kits, and the occasional updates with new kits and Factions.
.

[whateverman7]

Cyonan wrote...

I'm saying you probably don't know the meaning of words because you're saying BioWare can't do something they already do to an extent.

adding bonus xp isnt incentive to make a player get better....but go head and continue thinking i'm dumb, since it makes you feel some kinda way...

[Arppis]

You are the one who chooses how hard you want this game to be.

It's everyone's own business what they will use.

[Sabbatine]

upinya slayin wrote...



I found this interesting as it relates to "noobs" and their harrier+TGI and also to missile glitchers as well.

I am unable to watch it at the moment, do they also cover people who use crutches like reload cancelling and ramp tanking as well?

[Cyonan]

whateverman7 wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

I'm saying you probably don't know the meaning of words because you're saying BioWare can't do something they already do to an extent.

adding bonus xp isnt incentive to make a player get better....but go head and continue thinking i'm dumb, since it makes you feel some kinda way...

You're right, that's not an incentive to play other classes and get better. It's also not what I was talking about.

Most kits in the game have better offensive capabilities than the Krogan Vanguard does once you know how to use them properly.

There are still a good number of kits that can nuke spawns far better than the TGI can

The GI is probably the highest damage output kit in the game, and he's got some of the lowest effective health and a cloak that a lot of people can't get to cloak them.

There is another incentive for non Ghost Infiltrators to get better, you can learn how to actually become invisible with Tactical Cloak rather than it being Tactical Damage Boost.

The challenge system also does encourage using a variety of characters, though it doesn't directly encourage getting better at the game.

Modifié par Cyonan, 22 janvier 2013 - 07:08 .

[DcIhNaGv3z]

Good video, worth watching

The video does get one major point horribly wrong, regarding “noob tubing” in COD. The assertion that noob tubing is primarily done by new players and that “pro” players do not noob tube is terribly wrong. First of all, MLG style competitions ban/restrict various over powered weapons/perks/gear. Given the opportunity, Pro players would leverage everything at their disposal to achieve the greatest yield of results, including “easy” kills from a noob tube. Same goes for Halo, and just every other FPS, in a pvp players will always use what yields the best results. Secondly, the whole concept that noob tubing is done by new players and is there as a low-skill, introductory to getting kills weapon, is far from reality. Most of the players noob tubing are highly experienced at leveraging all of the game’s mechanics to maximize their results (one man army, scavenger, danger close, etc). The noob tube is far more likely to be abused by a good player to eviscerate new players, rather than the asserted claim in the video.

High power & low skill weapons/abilities need to be massively kept in check.

[Ronnie Blastoff]

Zero132132 wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Ronnie Blastoff wrote...


Yes we were all nubs once, these nubs on the other hand aren't getting better. Not only that they are taking advantage of the horrible system and getting almost free credits and gear while more veteran players put in a larger portion of work for them.

How do you know, are you stalking their N7HQs or something?

X2

Yes yes I am,

realisticly no, im not stalking any individuals, but thats where that magic # N7 comes into play, an N7 of at least 1K has had the opportunity to grasp the fundementals of the game, even if just playing silver, a person who actually is trying to develop a strategy or gameplan will show some "conciousness" when playing the game with that N7 level. I'm booting them constantly just because they think they can get a free ride, or when I play with them, they think (trying) to top the scoreboard impresses me, yet all I see are nub moves and a nub strategy. They, meaning the "azzclown nubs" that I'm speaking of and not "inexperienced nubs" who are still learning, (yet shouldnt be in gold still anyway) aren't getting any better.

[whateverman7]

Cyonan wrote...

You're right, that's not an incentive to play other classes and get better. It's also not what I was talking about.

Most kits in the game have better offensive capabilities than the Krogan Vanguard does once you know how to use them properly.

There are still a good number of kits that can nuke spawns far better than the TGI can

The GI is probably the highest damage output kit in the game, and he's got some of the lowest effective health and a cloak that a lot of people can't get to cloak them.

There is another incentive for non Ghost Infiltrators to get better, you can learn how to actually become invisible with Tactical Cloak rather than it being Tactical Damage Boost.

The challenge system also does encourage using a variety of characters, though it doesn't directly encourage getting better at the game.

go back and look at your posts: that's exactly what you were were talking about...you were the one that brought up bonus xp, but whatever..i'll talk about this post:

what you just said still isnt incentive to get better at the game....trying out other kits isnt getting better, that's just exploring all the game has to offer....cause you try everything in the game and keep it at a basic level....

your last sentence says you agree with what i've been saying: there is nothing to make a player want to get better.....it doesnt just go for ME and BW, it goes for all devs....there is nothing a dev can put in a game to make a player want to get better....that's all based on individual....cause people play games for fun, and get what they want out of it...the min a dev implements something to force the player to get better, it's gonna turn off a lot of people cause it takes the fun factor out of it for a lot of people.....

also, the main thing that drives people to get better at games is missing in ME, and that's the player vs player factor...and the only reason that drives people is cause it's not fun getting your assed kicked over and over by others...but even that turns some people off and makes them quit playing games; or at least taht aspect of the game

[Cyonan]

whateverman7 wrote...
go back and look at your posts: that's exactly what you were were talking about...you were the one that brought up bonus xp, but whatever..i'll talk about this post:

what you just said still isnt incentive to get better at the game....trying out other kits isnt getting better, that's just exploring all the game has to offer....cause you try everything in the game and keep it at a basic level....

your last sentence says you agree with what i've been saying: there is nothing to make a player want to get better.....it doesnt just go for ME and BW, it goes for all devs....there is nothing a dev can put in a game to make a player want to get better....that's all based on individual....cause people play games for fun, and get what they want out of it...the min a dev implements something to force the player to get better, it's gonna turn off a lot of people cause it takes the fun factor out of it for a lot of people.....

also, the main thing that drives people to get better at games is missing in ME, and that's the player vs player factor...and the only reason that drives people is cause it's not fun getting your assed kicked over and over by others...but even that turns some people off and makes them quit playing games; or at least taht aspect of the game

It was an example of encouraging players to do something, because you clearly weren't understanding what I meant by the word encourage.

It's an incentive to get better because an average player will do better with the Kroguard than they will with the Drell Adept, because the Drell Adept is squishy and will die a lot if you don't know how to play him well.

When you can play the Drell Adept well however, he will nuke spawns in a way that the Kroguard can only dream about. Note that Drell Adept is being used as an example, and most characters will be able to out perform the Kroguard offensively once you get good at them.

I have always agree'd that if a player is determined to not get better that they will not, this has nothing to do with what the word encourage means.

Encouragement simply is a developer going "I know you like your easy character, but if you learn how to play the harder characters then you'll be rewarded by performing much better". Bam, encouragement done. Nothing else is required.

The action that the player takes after this point has absolutely no relevance to if the developer has encouraged players or not. This is the point that you don't seem to be getting.

The Challenge System also does encourage variety in playstyle which can effectively solve the problem mentioned by EC of getting bored by playing one character over and over, it just doesn't directly encourage getting better as I mentioned. It probably will still indirectly happen by playing multiple types of characters.

Have you ever heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"?

I'm saying they should lead them to water and let them choose if they want to drink or not, you're saying they can't even lead them to water because they might not want to drink.

There are a lot of people who will strive to be better even when it's not competitive. I am one of these people.

[thegamefreek78648]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

Is it actually good? Should I be sad that I'm at work?

It's Extra Credits so I wouldn't discount it

The entire series tends to be pretty good

I hope you guys watch that series every so often just to help refresh your ideas, thoughts, desings and so forth.  If not, you should set a room up with free donuts and nachos and when everyone enters, close and lock the door, offer hot pockets and make them watch those videos.

[K_O_513]

There is no such thing as a crutch character. You can get owned using any character. People talk so much crap about PUGs on here and then act like they've never played with a bad TGI or Kroguard.

Even funnier is that this is a co-op game. I don't care what characters my teammates use as long as they help with objectives and don't die constantly.

[whateverman7]

Cyonan wrote...

It was an example of encouraging players to do something, because you clearly weren't understanding what I meant by the word encourage.

It's an incentive to get better because an average player will do better with the Kroguard than they will with the Drell Adept, because the Drell Adept is squishy and will die a lot if you don't know how to play him well.

When you can play the Drell Adept well however, he will nuke spawns in a way that the Kroguard can only dream about. Note that Drell Adept is being used as an example, and most characters will be able to out perform the Kroguard offensively once you get good at them.

I have always agree'd that if a player is determined to not get better that they will not, this has nothing to do with what the word encourage means.

Encouragement simply is a developer going "I know you like your easy character, but if you learn how to play the harder characters then you'll be rewarded by performing much better". Bam, encouragement done. Nothing else is required.

The action that the player takes after this point has absolutely no relevance to if the developer has encouraged players or not. This is the point that you don't seem to be getting.

The Challenge System also does encourage variety in playstyle which can effectively solve the problem mentioned by EC of getting bored by playing one character over and over, it just doesn't directly encourage getting better as I mentioned. It probably will still indirectly happen by playing multiple types of characters.

Have you ever heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"?

I'm saying they should lead them to water and let them choose if they want to drink or not, you're saying they can't even lead them to water because they might not want to drink.

There are a lot of people who will strive to be better even when it's not competitive. I am one of these people.

talking to you is pointless cause instead of staying on topic, you're more focused on trying to prove you're smarter than me and argue, so you're sounding like a smart ******....or a person that doesnt read....cause everything you said, guess what? i said....not once have i said devs cant encourage players to try everything offered in a game; i have said they cant encourage them to get better at the game....which are 2 different things....even your smart ****** agrees...

and that last statement 'There are a lot of people who will strive to be better even when it's not competitive. I am one of these people.'....proves you dont read, cause guess what? i said that already too about myself

edit: i just remembered you from another thread, so how you're posting now isnt a surprise

Modifié par whateverman7, 22 janvier 2013 - 09:38 .

[Dup3r]

Vid=100%

That's the reason I play through the challenges in the Alien set. I've learned things I wouldn't have otherwise.

P.S... Extra Credits is ALWAYS good value. ... Yes I used a superlative there.

Modifié par Dup3r, 22 janvier 2013 - 09:37 .

[upinya slayin]

Rad_Rage wrote...

There is no such thing as a crutch character. You can get owned using any character. People talk so much crap about PUGs on here and then act like they've never played with a bad TGI or Kroguard.

Even funnier is that this is a co-op game. I don't care what characters my teammates use as long as they help with objectives and don't die constantly.

i odn't think its a problem of playing with a TGI, its about only using that ine class and never being able to use anything else or even enjoy the variety. for inace when i was doing teh gold and platinum sprred runs, when we had options it was always teh GI or TGI i used. the reason was they just kill thinks fast as hell. of course there were other characters in some runs we had to use. like i used a sniping infildrell for teh sniper challenge, but i think u see the point

[Cyonan]

whateverman7 wrote...
talking to you is pointless cause instead of staying on topic, you're more focused on trying to prove you're smarter than me and argue, so you're sounding like a smart ******....or a person that doesnt read....cause everything you said, guess what? i said....not once have i said devs cant encourage players to try everything offered in a game; i have said they cant encourage them to get better at the game....which are 2 different things....even your smart ****** agrees...

and that last statement 'There are a lot of people who will strive to be better even when it's not competitive. I am one of these people.'....proves you dont read, cause guess what? i said that already too about myself

edit: i just remembered you from another thread, so how you're posting now isnt a surprise

I know that you are saying that they can't encourage them to get better. I am saying that you are wrong.

Encouraging somebody to do something simply means trying to convince them to do it. It doesn't mean that you make them do it, otherwise that can no longer be called encouraging them. We call that forcing them to do it.

I'm not saying anybody is smarter than anybody else. I'm saying the thing that you say isn't possible is currently being done in Mass Effect, and that because of this you are in fact wrong in your statement that a developer can't encourage players to get better.

Go back and read the post you just replied you. Think about it carefully, especially the part where I said "The action that the player takes after this point has absolutely no relevance to if the developer has encouraged players or not. This is the point that you don't seem to be getting.".

As I said before, I am saying that you can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink.

You are saying that because the horse might not want to drink, you can't even lead it to water.

If you don't get it at this point then I think I've about done all I can here, especially since your argument is now little more than just insulting me.

Ironically enough, this entire argument is basically me encouraging you to understand my point of the word encouragement, but you don't seem to want to. I have still encouraged it, though =P

[sandboxgod]

Cyonan wrote...

whateverman7 wrote...
go back and look at your posts: that's exactly what you were were talking about...you were the one that brought up bonus xp, but whatever..i'll talk about this post:

what you just said still isnt incentive to get better at the game....trying out other kits isnt getting better, that's just exploring all the game has to offer....cause you try everything in the game and keep it at a basic level....

your last sentence says you agree with what i've been saying: there is nothing to make a player want to get better.....it doesnt just go for ME and BW, it goes for all devs....there is nothing a dev can put in a game to make a player want to get better....that's all based on individual....cause people play games for fun, and get what they want out of it...the min a dev implements something to force the player to get better, it's gonna turn off a lot of people cause it takes the fun factor out of it for a lot of people.....

also, the main thing that drives people to get better at games is missing in ME, and that's the player vs player factor...and the only reason that drives people is cause it's not fun getting your assed kicked over and over by others...but even that turns some people off and makes them quit playing games; or at least taht aspect of the game

It was an example of encouraging players to do something, because you clearly weren't understanding what I meant by the word encourage.

It's an incentive to get better because an average player will do better with the Kroguard than they will with the Drell Adept, because the Drell Adept is squishy and will die a lot if you don't know how to play him well.

When you can play the Drell Adept well however, he will nuke spawns in a way that the Kroguard can only dream about. Note that Drell Adept is being used as an example, and most characters will be able to out perform the Kroguard offensively once you get good at them.

I have always agree'd that if a player is determined to not get better that they will not, this has nothing to do with what the word encourage means.

Encouragement simply is a developer going "I know you like your easy character, but if you learn how to play the harder characters then you'll be rewarded by performing much better". Bam, encouragement done. Nothing else is required.

The action that the player takes after this point has absolutely no relevance to if the developer has encouraged players or not. This is the point that you don't seem to be getting.

The Challenge System also does encourage variety in playstyle which can effectively solve the problem mentioned by EC of getting bored by playing one character over and over, it just doesn't directly encourage getting better as I mentioned. It probably will still indirectly happen by playing multiple types of characters.

Have you ever heard the saying "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"?

I'm saying they should lead them to water and let them choose if they want to drink or not, you're saying they can't even lead them to water because they might not want to drink.

There are a lot of people who will strive to be better even when it's not competitive. I am one of these people.

I'm not sure why a player has to play other characters to improve? Maybe my way of thinking is dead wrong. But I firmly believe a player can become the best player this game has to offer by sticking to just one class. The best players are merely the ones that have learned to exploit AI behavior. 

Back when I used to farm FBWGG I wasnt really learning anything. I hid behind a counter, never learning about spawn nuking, etc. Never learned how to kite the enemies to clutch a wave. Only learned how to grab mobs while I hid behind a counter. didn't matter what 'class' I would have used. I used them all for some variety. I'd never have learned bout AI logic til I played other maps & made more friends that could teach me better


I do think it's great to play other characters to learn their strengths & weaknesses. However, since 1 individual player can lone wolf and win a scenario I do not think it is necessary for players to expand their horizons to improve. If only we really needed each other to complete Platnium then maybe that would be different. 

[STRANGE10VE]

I started playing gold in April. For the first few weeks I would use the SI. He was the original crutch kit. I didn't light up the scoreboard at first but I found that I could survive with him. I used him as a crutch and became a better player for it. All I keep reading is that new players are using the TGI as a crutch to get better at the game. Is that such a bad thing? A crutch is meant to help you out until you get better. The recent release of the trilogy and Christmas has brought in alot of new players. Give them a little time and they'll start using other kits.

[Doni]

Interesting, and well presented, but not entirely correct.

By the video's explanation, Counter-Strike would've withered up and died by now because new players have no crutches to use as they build their skill, but obviously this is false.

But for more casual games like Mass Effect, the video has the right idea.

[sandboxgod]

One last thought to leave with you guys. I used to play a PC racing sim called "iRacing" quite often. In that game, most players will encourage noobs to stick to one car for an extremely long time. This is so you learn the basics and when you are ready for a 'bigger' car you can handle it. This is what I did until I gradually improved and started winning races. After that, I was ready to move on.

This forum is basically the opposite. Many BSN members expect newbies to master all the classes as if that will magically make them awesome. But in reality, sticking to just 1 thing is how you master something. If you spread your focus, then you may never learn to get good at anything.

The only reason you might want to try out a different car or in this case, a class- is to find out if you can get better results. In the end, its probably about what can give people the best results for their time.