426 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

But it really is.

ME2 is no more narratively coherent with its predecessor than ME3 is. 

You don't have to look further than the first five minutes, where the protagonist is killed off and magically brought back to life two years later.

Shepard dying in the first five minutes is made even more ridiculous if you play the two games back to back with the fake death at the end of ME1.

[dorktainian]

no. you will not be able to 'get' mass effect 3 if you do not understand mass effect 2. mass effect 2 is the most epic game in the history of the multiverse.

[Seboist]

Well, one thing we "understand" thanks to ME2 is how everyone in ME1 were dumbasses for wearing sealed suits and that it's perfectly safe to wear catsuits, nipple straps and have your top unzipped in hazardous environment as long as you wear an oxygen mask.

Modifié par Seboist, 26 janvier 2013 - 12:48 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Seboist wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

But it really is.

ME2 is no more narratively coherent with its predecessor than ME3 is. 

You don't have to look further than the first five minutes, where the protagonist is killed off and magically brought back to life two years later.

Shepard dying in the first five minutes is made even more ridiculous if you play the two games back to back with the fake death at the end of ME1.

Oh I know, I've done just that several times, and the whole dying, losing the Normandy, and returning after two years "because science" can be quite jarring.

I don't understand why the premise of Shepard and co. being sidelined by the Council who aren't doing enough to stop the Reapers, so the Commander has to team up with a shady organization that can get the job done, translated into killing her off for two years and resetting the plot. 

The Normandy being destroyed by the Collectors and the Council/Alliance unwilling to help you should have been more than enough motivation for Shepard to start looking to Cerberus. 

[JBPBRC]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

But it really is.

ME2 is no more narratively coherent with its predecessor than ME3 is. 

You don't have to look further than the first five minutes, where the protagonist is killed off and magically brought back to life two years later.

Shepard dying in the first five minutes is made even more ridiculous if you play the two games back to back with the fake death at the end of ME1.

Oh I know, I've done just that several times, and the whole dying, losing the Normandy, and returning after two years "because science" can be quite jarring.

I don't understand why the premise of Shepard and co. being sidelined by the Council who aren't doing enough to stop the Reapers, so the Commander has to team up with a shady organization that can get the job done, translated into killing her off for two years and resetting the plot. 

The Normandy being destroyed by the Collectors and the Council/Alliance unwilling to help you should have been more than enough motivation for Shepard to start looking to Cerberus. 

Because railroading.

[Seboist]

The whole working for Cerberus bit was just some gimmick to make things "dark" and "edgy". I recall either Hudson or Walters saying that ME2 was supposed to be the "dark middle chapter like Empire Strikes back".

How going around in a luxury space yacht solving daddy issues and fighting color coded sesame street mercs and mindless bug drones that are even more black and white than Saren and the Geth while working for a "secret" goofball organization that likes to slap it's logo on everything is "dark" is beyond me.

[The Night Mammoth]

I actually like the premise in its basic form.

By that I mean, the idea that the Council are paralyzed with indecision due to the scale of the threat the Reapers pose, unwilling to do what needs to be done because it might upset the status quo and cause mass panic, so Shepard feels almost forced to turn to Cerberus.

Freedom's Progress, Normandy destroyed by the Collectors, Council wont help Shepard. Cerberus appears with the resources Shepard needs.

I could go on and explain how all the new characters could fit into the story as actual leads on the Collectors, like Okeer having information on them, eventually imprinted in Grunt, or Thane actually being more involved with the Shadow Broker plot line as he was the one who caused the death of his wife, or how there'd a more defined pro or con Cerberus vibe, or how the Collectors are actually kidnapping colonies of all species to run experiments and build up the Reapers' army for when they invade, but there's not enough time to explain.

[spirosz]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

but there's not enough time to explain.

And that right there, is the problem.  Resources, budget, etc all played a role on why ME2's story wasn't executed to the best of it's abilities.  

[spirosz]

J. Reezy wrote...

spirosz wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

but there's not enough time to explain.

And that right there, is the problem.  Resources, budget, etc all played a role on why ME2's story wasn't executed to the best of it's abilities.  

I'm assuming "lack of planning" is a part of the et cetera.

"Appealing to the masses/younger crowd" can also be part of that. 

And also "**** happens" 

Modifié par spirosz, 26 janvier 2013 - 03:19 .

[JBPBRC]

spirosz wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

but there's not enough time to explain.

And that right there, is the problem.  Resources, budget, etc all played a role on why ME2's story wasn't executed to the best of it's abilities.  

And its even worse for ME3.

[Robhuzz]

Fifmut wrote...

I think the trilogy is better off without ME3.

And QFT

[nos_astra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
By that I mean, the idea that the Council are paralyzed with indecision due to the scale of the threat the Reapers pose, unwilling to do what needs to be done because it might upset the status quo and cause mass panic, so Shepard feels almost forced to turn to Cerberus. 

Doesn't work for me. This is what we know about galactic goverment:

The Council is an executive committee composed of representatives from the Asari Republics, the Turian Hierarchy, and the Salarian Union. Though they have no official power over the independent governments of other species, the Council's decisions carry great weight throughout the galaxy. No single Council race is strong enough to defy the other two, and all have a vested interest in compromise and cooperation.

Each of the council species has general characteristics associated with the various aspects of governing the galaxy. The asari are typically seen as diplomats and mediators. The salarians gather intelligence and information.The turians provide the bulk of the military and peacekeeping forces.

Any species granted an embassy on the Citadel is considered an associate member, bound by the accords of the Citadel Conventions. Associate members may bring issues to the attention of the Council, though they have no input on the decision. The human Systems Alliance became an associate member of the Citadel in 2165.

The Council could be deadlocked, sure. That doesn't mean the indivdual governments (be it full or associated members) would simply roll over and play dead, too. I could see the galactic community break apart over this issue but never actually paralyzed with indecision in a way that makes working with Cerberus the only option.

Modifié par klarabella, 26 janvier 2013 - 04:08 .

[The Night Mammoth]

klarabella wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
By that I mean, the idea that the Council are paralyzed with indecision due to the scale of the threat the Reapers pose, unwilling to do what needs to be done because it might upset the status quo and cause mass panic, so Shepard feels almost forced to turn to Cerberus. 

Doesn't work for me. This is what we know about galactic goverment:

The Council is an executive committee composed of representatives from the Asari Republics, the Turian Hierarchy, and the Salarian Union. Though they have no official power over the independent governments of other species, the Council's decisions carry great weight throughout the galaxy. No single Council race is strong enough to defy the other two, and all have a vested interest in compromise and cooperation.

Each of the council species has general characteristics associated with the various aspects of governing the galaxy. The asari are typically seen as diplomats and mediators. The salarians gather intelligence and information.The turians provide the bulk of the military and peacekeeping forces.

Any species granted an embassy on the Citadel is considered an associate member, bound by the accords of the Citadel Conventions. Associate members may bring issues to the attention of the Council, though they have no input on the decision. The human Systems Alliance became an associate member of the Citadel in 2165.

The Council could be deadlocked, sure. That doesn't mean the indivdual governments (be it full or associated members) would simply roll over and play dead, too. I could see the galactic community break apart over this issue but never actually paralyzed with indecision in a way that makes working with Cerberus the only option.

I didn't fully explain it all because that would involve explaining a whole lot of background stuff, and I did struggle with this.

But in short; the governements of the various species don't know the full story because it's been covered up by the Council, who do nothing in order to preserve their positions.

It never really made sense to me that the Council completely dismiss the threat of the Reapers as a whole when there's all this evidence piling up, so I thought that instead of dismissing it, they would hide it from the rest of the galaxy. 

Shepard, as a Spectre, answers to them. If she wants their help she has to play along, and there's only so much the human Councilor can do (in my case Anderson, who is weighed down and becomes more like his colleagues than the trusted ally Shepard wanted). All the evidence, the truth, is routed through the Council first, and what few members of the Alliance that would know are too busy trying to capatalize on the situation as the saviours of the Citadel to care.

So the Council are completely paralyzed by indecision. They have the truth, but they don't want to use it because they, and their species, could be negatively impacted, and the status quo they strive to uphold would be shattered. 

After the Normandy blows up no one gives Shepard the aid she needs to fight the Reapers, when suddenly, Cerberus swoops in with all the resources Shepard could want, right at the point where the trust she has in the powers that be is at its lowest point, 

Undermine the support Shepard has in the Council, the Alliance, and Anderson, then introduce Cerberus.

[JBPBRC]

^ Hey you. Yeah, you! Stop making sense! That ain't welcome 'round these parts.

[nos_astra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
It never really made sense to me that the Council completely dismiss the threat of the Reapers as a whole when there's all this evidence piling up, so I thought that instead of dismissing it, they would hide it from the rest of the galaxy.

Thousands of people (civilians) witnessed a giant space squid crash into the Citadel tower. They saw the Citadel close its arms, something that has never happened before. The fleets found the mass relays inaccessible before they engaged an incredibly powerful enemy.

An event of this magnitude can't be covered up and handwaved. Well, unless we're still married to the ME2 comic book logic.

[Magiking117]

ME2 fleshed out the universe and its characters beautifully, but the overarching plot was pretty much non-existent. Personally, I think they squandered an opportunity to develop the Reapers further.

Here's how I think it should have been:

ME1: Introduction of Reaper threat, and lay the ground work
ME2: Dig deeper for intel regarding the 'harvest' and try and look for anything that could aid you in your fight
ME3: Round up as many forces in the galaxy you can, and use what you have learned and found to launch an attack against the Reapers

With that ME2 plot we could gain a deeper understanding of the terrors of a Reaper harvest - which would have great narrative potential - and it would provide a better way of discovering the Crucible, rather than have it suddenly introduced at the beginning of the third game.

[The Night Mammoth]

klarabella wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
It never really made sense to me that the Council completely dismiss the threat of the Reapers as a whole when there's all this evidence piling up, so I thought that instead of dismissing it, they would hide it from the rest of the galaxy.

Thousands of people (civilians) witnessed a giant space squid crash into the Citadel tower. They saw the Citadel close its arms, something that has never happened before. The fleets found the mass relays inaccessible before they engaged an incredibly powerful enemy.

An event of this magnitude can't be covered up and handwaved. Well, unless we're still married to the ME2 comic book logic.

What I mean is that they blame it all on the Geth and Saren, and hide the idea of an army of giant, robot murder squids is hell bent on the death of every person in the galaxy. 

Instead of repeatedly telling Shepard that she's insane for thinking the Reapers are real, when it's quite obvious that they are, they faff around not doing anything about them because they fear a situation of mass panic or one they can't control. 

[Belisarius25]

That makes sense for keeping the true threat secret but why on Earth would they not at least start preparing in secret (Joker even lampshades this in ME3 when he comments that he always assumed that's what they were doing).

The Turians are a hyper-militarized society and they do nothing until after ME2. The Salarians are about always being prepared and are doing shady as hell things like considering uplifting the Yahg and they do nothing. The Asari are really wise and have a strong military and they do nothing.

Not telling the public at large "Oh, hey, there's a massive fleet of omnicidal robots coming to harvest us" doesn't mean you have to sit around doing nothing. Military buildups are very possible - hell, just say you're building ships, etc. to protect against the Geth threat.

[JBPBRC]

Belisarius25 wrote...

That makes sense for keeping the true threat secret but why on Earth would they not at least start preparing in secret (Joker even lampshades this in ME3 when he comments that he always assumed that's what they were doing).

The Turians are a hyper-militarized society and they do nothing until after ME2. The Salarians are about always being prepared and are doing shady as hell things like considering uplifting the Yahg and they do nothing. The Asari are really wise and have a strong military and they do nothing.

Not telling the public at large "Oh, hey, there's a massive fleet of omnicidal robots coming to harvest us" doesn't mean you have to sit around doing nothing. Military buildups are very possible - hell, just say you're building ships, etc. to protect against the Geth threat.

This is why I couldn't stand the Council. At the very least you'd think they'd build up to go counterattack the Geth whom they blamed for the Reaper attack.

[nos_astra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
What I mean is that they blame it all on the Geth and Saren, and hide the idea of an army of giant, robot murder squids is hell bent on the death of every person in the galaxy.

Why would they? Who would believe this crap? I mean, they could try and they probably would but rumors would spread like a wildfire anyway. A giant something popping out of nowhere, attacking the Citadel which suddenly reacts in ways never seen before would cause unrest pretty quickly among the civilians. Who would then call their friends or mom and dad back on their homeworld and ... oops, good luck covering this up.

The media would be all over this within minutes. I'm sure the media had some information on what actual geth look like. You can't trust the media, a few hundred soldiers and thousands of ordinary people to keep quiet and stop speculating about this level of OMG WTF JUST HAPPENED!

But if you're really that much in love with the idea, well, even dead gods can dream. Lots of dead god parts on the Citadel now.

Instead of repeatedly telling Shepard that she's insane for thinking the Reapers are real, when it's quite obvious that they are, they faff around not doing anything about them because they fear a situation of mass panic or one they can't control. 

Which is one of the reasons why I think ME2 fails so much on a narrative level. 

Trying to downplay everything for the public is one thing but why wouldn't they do something behind the scenes? They know it's not the geth. If it's not the geth it must be something else. They have several leads they can follow up on. Why wouldn't they? Because they need to be idiots so Shepard can look good and save the day?

Modifié par klarabella, 26 janvier 2013 - 08:57 .

[Seboist]

The council easily believes one audio recording that their top spectre is a traitor but a big ass reaper ship that attacks their capital and leaves remains behind isn't enough to convince them according to ME2. lol

Modifié par Seboist, 26 janvier 2013 - 08:45 .

[archangel1996]

ME2 is gold compared to ME3

[Belisarius25]

Seboist wrote...

The council easily believes one audio recording that their top spectre is a traitor but a big ass reaper ship that attacks their capital and leaves remains behind isn't enough to convince them according to ME2. lol

Obviously, the Council already knew about the Crucible and didn't want to waste resources