426 réponses à ce sujet

[Roobz82]

No, it was the strongest of the three. Just. No.

[KotorEffect3]

ME 2 while not as intense as ME 3 is probably the most polished game of the series. It still feels like the largest game as well (in terms of how long it takes to play). ME 2 has just too mugh good stuff.

[The Heretic of Time]

Roobz82 wrote...

No, it was the strongest of the three. Just. No.

Also the most trivial and meaningless of the three, plot wise that is.

[Belisarius25]

That all may be true, but most of the discussion isn't about "Is Mass Effect 2 a good game, yes/no?", it's whether it did a good job serving as the second part of the trilogy - following up on ME1, continuing the ongoing plot/characterization threads, and setting things up for ME3.

My own opinion, as I've stated here, is that it didn't do a very good job of it. That doesn't mean "get rid of ME2" or "ME2 sucks", rather I wish they'd done a better job of integrating it within the overall narrative. I also wish they'd done a few things differently with ME1 but I don't know if they anticipated having sequels at that point.

Edit:  Directed at the people above me other than Heretic_Hanar, of course.

Modifié par Belisarius25, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:05 .

[The Night Mammoth]

klarabella wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...
What I mean is that they blame it all on the Geth and Saren, and hide the idea of an army of giant, robot murder squids is hell bent on the death of every person in the galaxy.

Why would they? Who would believe this crap? I mean, they could try and they probably would but rumors would spread like a wildfire anyway. A giant something popping out of nowhere, attacking the Citadel which suddenly reacts in ways never seen before would cause unrest pretty quickly among the civilians. Who would then call their friends or mom and dad back on their homeworld and ... oops, good luck covering this up.

The media would be all over this within minutes. I'm sure the media had some information on what actual geth look like. You can't trust the media, a few hundred soldiers and thousands of ordinary people to keep quiet and stop speculating about this level of OMG WTF JUST HAPPENED!

But if you're really that much in love with the idea, well, even dead gods can dream. Lots of dead god parts on the Citadel now.

I'm not so taken with the idea that I think it's perfect, just better than anything in the game.

The point is that it's all kept under wraps. Rumours and speculation can only go so far without anything cocrete, and the only people who have that aren't sharing. 

The Council aren't because they want to avoid the consequences of the whole galaxy learning of their impending doom (I'm talking arms races, mass panic, potential war, stuff like the krogan being uplifted happening again), and keep their power. 

Shepard's not talking because the Council are threatening to withdraw their support if they do. 

Instead of repeatedly telling Shepard that she's insane for thinking the Reapers are real, when it's quite obvious that they are, they faff around not doing anything about them because they fear a situation of mass panic or one they can't control. 

Which is one of the reasons why I think ME2 fails so much on a narrative level. 

Trying to downplay everything for the public is one thing but why wouldn't they do something behind the scenes? They know its not the geth. If its not the geth it must be something else. They have several leads they can follow up on. Why wouldn't they? Because they need to be idiots so Shepard can look good and save the day?

In this version of the plot, two years of complete inactivity does not occur. 

They're not unwilling to do something, they're just, like I said, largely paralyzed by indecision. They don't know what to do. 

Except send Shepard out, which would result in the destruction of the Normandy, which the Council and the Alliance refuse to 'replace' so Shepard can get on with things. 


Anyway, this is increasingly becoming a discussion on my headcanon. I'm all game, just thought I'd point out that all of this is ideas I jotted down months ago and are working into some sort of coherent story whenever I have free time from school stuff. Or can be bothered. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:19 .

[INH56]

klarabella wrote...
They saw the Citadel close its arms, something that has never happened before.

Slight nitpick: people knew that the Citadel could close its arms. The codex says that the standard procedure if the Citadel is attacked is to close the arms, forming a virtually impenetrable shell. We see this happen during the battle of the Citadel, when the order is given to "activate Citadel defenses, seal the station," and people are surprised when this doesn't happen (because Saren and the Geth had attacked Citadel Control). Your point still stands though, especially the part about the Relays getting locked out. I've long thought that that should have been a much bigger deal than it was, even in ME1.

On topic: I agree with what's been said about ME2 feeling like a standalone, but I would add that the same thing could be said about ME1. At the end of ME1, Sovereign is dead, Saren is dead, Benezia is dead, the Thorian is dead, the Rachni Queen is possibly dead, the Krogan cloning facility has been vaporized, and the Geth forces have presumably taken huge losses in the battle of the Citadel. There are loose ends, but there aren't many big ones that aren't optional. The first installment of a trilogy should probably leave more for the sequels. There's a reason that Star Wars had Darth Vader fly off into space at the end of the first movie.

Modifié par INH56, 26 janvier 2013 - 09:58 .

[nos_astra]

INH56 wrote...
Slight nitpick: people knew that the Citadel could close its arms. The codex says that the standard procedure if the Citadel is attacked is to close the arms, forming a virtually impenetrable shell. We see this happen during the battle of the Citadel, when the order is given to "activate Citadel defenses, seal the station," and people are surprised when this doesn't happen (because Saren and the Geth had attacked Citadel Control). Your point still stands though, especially the part about the Relays getting locked out. I've long thought that that should have been a much bigger deal than it was, even in ME1.

Uh, I somehow thought it was Saren closing the arms to protect Sovereign. Well, it's been a few months.  
You're right, being scared because the Citadel didn't close up works, too. (Maybe not quite as impressive but still scary enough.) Lucky me.

Modifié par klarabella, 26 janvier 2013 - 10:20 .

[INH56]

Saren does close the arms to protect Sovereign. The sequence of events goes like this:

1. Sovereign and Geth ships attack through the relay while Saren and Geth infantry simultaneously invade the Citadel through the Conduit.

2. Upon seeing the ships approaching the Citadel, the Council tries to close the arms, but Saren attacks the control room and stops this.

3. Saren waits until Sovereign gets close to the Citadel, then presses the "close arms" button, giving Sovvy just enough time to get inside.

Modifié par INH56, 26 janvier 2013 - 10:27 .

[nos_astra]

Makes sense. Thanks for reminding me.

[Bad King]

Mass Effect 2 had a weak and rather trivial main narrative, but it was the characters, the scope (exploration of various backwater planets and four hub worlds), and the sheer amount of new lore (new races, new factions, new locations, and the Cerberus Daily News stories) that made the game great (and why it was better than ME3).

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

ME2 wasn't necessary to the Reaper story at all, it was really pointless. It just explored them and it startled up the hype for the endgame/ME3 plot/Reaper invasion.

[Seboist]

Bad King wrote...

Mass Effect 2 had a weak and rather trivial main narrative, but it was the characters, the scope (exploration of various backwater planets and four hub worlds), and the sheer amount of new lore (new races, new factions, new locations, and the Cerberus Daily News stories) that made the game great (and why it was better than ME3).

The CDN tended to have more interesting stories than what was in-game ironically enough. The Vorcha had more depth in that as well instead of the one note racial caricature cannon fodder role in the actual game.

[dorktainian]

it's linked at the hip to the reaper story. you just have to actually look at the big picture, not wear a red facecloth. pathetic.  the true haters on bsn are the numpties in the red facecloth kindergarden.  i love all three games. (coincidently the same number of shared brain cells of the red banana muppets). 

all three. 

three.

Modifié par dorktainian, 27 janvier 2013 - 09:23 .

[Seboist]

Since we're on the subject of ME2's atrocious writing and pointlessness this as good a moment as any to post Smudboy's analysis of it.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

[dorktainian]

Seboist wrote...

Since we're on the subject of ME2's atrocious writing and pointlessness this as good a moment as any to post Smudboy's analysis of it.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

you know what, i love smudboy. and i think the whole trilogy is a story of epicness.  smudboy makes one mistake about me2 not involving the central plot.  he is however very articulate and interesting.  for a literalist.

[archangel1996]

Seboist wrote...

Since we're on the subject of ME2's atrocious writing and pointlessness this as good a moment as any to post Smudboy's analysis of it.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

It's funny how you are trying to save ME3's bad writing rambling about ME2's bad writing
The truth is: ME1 and 2 prepared us for a great ME3, ME3 isn't great at all...it's not ME1's fault that the Rachni are a joke in ME3, it's not ME2' fault that the squaddies of ME2 are a joke in ME3
It's not ME1 and 2 fault tjhat almost everything is resetted in ME3

Modifié par archangel1996, 27 janvier 2013 - 12:43 .

[Barquiel]

archangel1996 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Since we're on the subject of ME2's atrocious writing and pointlessness this as good a moment as any to post Smudboy's analysis of it.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

It's funny how you are trying to save ME3's bad writing rambling about ME2's bad writing
The truth is: ME1 and 2 prepared us for a great ME3, ME3 isn't great at all...it's not ME1's fault that the Rachni are a joke in ME3, it's not ME2' fault that the squaddies of ME2 are a joke in ME3
It's not ME1 and 2 fault tjhat almost everything is resetted in ME3

The squadmate thing is ME2's fault. A suicide mission in the middle of the trilogy was simply a horrible idea. But I agree about the rachni.

Modifié par Barquiel, 27 janvier 2013 - 12:52 .

[nos_astra]

archangel1996 wrote...
It's funny how you are trying to save ME3's bad writing rambling about ME2's bad writing
The truth is: ME1 and 2 prepared us for a great ME3, ME3 isn't great at all...it's not ME1's fault that the Rachni are a joke in ME3, it's not ME2' fault that the squaddies of ME2 are a joke in ME3
It's not ME1 and 2 fault tjhat almost everything is resetted in ME3

Of course, it is. They introduced 9 new and reactivated 2 old squadmates. The survival of all these characters is entirely optional.

Making Ashley and Kaidan interchangeable barely worked. But even with the less than optimal execution of having them share the same character arc and role the VS still remains the choice with the largest and most noticable effect.

There was NO WAY they could have done this with 12 squadmates. And there were people who took one look at Horizon and the VS and just knew that the amount of branching necessary to conclude the mess the suicide mission left behind would not be manageable and eventually lead to the ME2 cast being sidelined. 

This is especially true if you consider the one thing that ME3 no doubt managed to improve: Your squadmates acknowledging and interacting with each other.

Modifié par klarabella, 27 janvier 2013 - 01:43 .

[Seboist]

archangel1996 wrote...

It's funny how you are trying to save ME3's bad writing rambling about ME2's bad writing
The truth is: ME1 and 2 prepared us for a great ME3, ME3 isn't great at all...it's not ME1's fault that the Rachni are a joke in ME3, it's not ME2' fault that the squaddies of ME2 are a joke in ME3
It's not ME1 and 2 fault tjhat almost everything is resetted in ME3

Lol wut? They're both cut from the same cloth to me. ME3's bad writing doesn't exist outside of a vacuum from 2's.

The squadmate's disposable mook nature in 2 precisely why they have minor roles in 3. Of course, Tali and Garrus being top fan ****** material makes this excempt from this.

Oh and I like how you imply 2 doesn't have resetting;"Ah yes reapers" and "Lazarus Project", anyone?

[string3r]

Seboist wrote...

The whole working for Cerberus bit was just some gimmick to make things "dark" and "edgy". I recall either Hudson or Walters saying that ME2 was supposed to be the "dark middle chapter like Empire Strikes back".

How going around in a luxury space yacht solving daddy issues and fighting color coded sesame street mercs and mindless bug drones that are even more black and white than Saren and the Geth while working for a "secret" goofball organization that likes to slap it's logo on everything is "dark" is beyond me.

If anything, ME1 was a lot darker than ME2.

[archangel1996]

Seboist wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

It's funny how you are trying to save ME3's bad writing rambling about ME2's bad writing
The truth is: ME1 and 2 prepared us for a great ME3, ME3 isn't great at all...it's not ME1's fault that the Rachni are a joke in ME3, it's not ME2' fault that the squaddies of ME2 are a joke in ME3
It's not ME1 and 2 fault tjhat almost everything is resetted in ME3

Lol wut? They're both cut from the same cloth to me. ME3's bad writing doesn't exist outside of a vacuum from 2's.

The squadmate's disposable mook nature in 2 precisely why they have minor roles in 3. Of course, Tali and Garrus being top fan ****** material makes this excempt from this.

Oh and I like how you imply 2 doesn't have resetting;"Ah yes reapers" and "Lazarus Project", anyone?

Council, geth, Collector base, Rachni, the biggest of them all, the super weapon(in which the only thing that does matter are War Assets, so just play MP ) and these are just some of the more visible resetted choices
Do we have to talk about the characters? What changes in Garrus if he kills/doesn't kill Sidonis? in Jack with the guy on Pragia? and Jack LI? AH, Morinth? eliminated, LI Thane? screw you, Legion's mission? Meh the geth will do **** anyway, Miranda? let's get a quickie and be happy with that ecc ecc
And there are plenty of minor things that happeared so important in ME1-2 and that, in the end, weren't even mentioned
They made too many sqauddies for ME2...so what? They choose that, so they had to give them a good role in the game, they went with the east way out, two dialogue lines and goodbye until London
ME1 was the beginning,ME2 was the bridge, ME3 should have been the promise land, the catalyst of every single choice made during the games, at least of the major ones...it wasn't, simply as that

Modifié par archangel1996, 27 janvier 2013 - 04:01 .

[MassStorm]

Plotwise ME2 is simply terrible and pointless.
Considering ME3 plot:

Why attacking and destroying the Collectors if they are going to re-appear back in ME3 MP??
What was the point of Human Reaper???
What is the point of Heastrom mission hinting at dark energy???
What is the point of working with Cerberus in ME2?? TIM is an indoctrinated fool

ME2 would have made sense if dark energy plotline was central in ME3 but since it is all about synthetics vs organics the "plot" of ME2 is utterly pointless. I also feel that with some modification you could have skipped ME2 altogether. ME1 and 3 are more consistant for what regard the central conflict we have to deal with.

Let's face it, storywise ME2 is a mess. Not saying that ME3 is perfect but at least seems more linked to ME1 and his cental story.

IMO

Modifié par MassStorm, 27 janvier 2013 - 04:13 .

[TweedleDee66]

justafan wrote...

1. No Harbinger disappointment: In ME2, Harbinger is the main antagonist. He is constantly taunting you and sending his collector minions to stop you at every turn. In ME3, he is nowhere to be seen until the final beam run, and says nothing at all. His entire role in 3 is limited to a cameo, and a person who never played ME2 wouldn't miss a thing.

-Yet in ME3 the Reapers themselves are not even a real antagonist on their own or in force. They are just a means to get you on your merry little way and on your quest and nothing more. The reapers are a disappointment in ME3 in every sense of what you have been told up until this game. Where is this massive “legion” that will darken our skies? Why is there no sense of urgency at all in the game? Do the Dragon Age Origins thing and have a hub world location suddenly get wiped out by the Reapers at a certain time point, do it again later at another hub world. Oh wait we only have the Citadel for a hub location in ME3...

ME1 had Saren and Sovereign. What did we even get as a main antagonist in ME3? The Illusive Man? Cerberus? The Reaper ground forces? Cyber ninja wanabes? We got a star brat and a badly written story.

2. The catalyst's logic is more sound: The original endings were hated mostly because they contained glaring plot holes and inconsistencies. For one, the catalyst proclaims that "the created will always destroy their creators". A lot of longtime fans took issue with this because Rannoch allows us to lay the framework for peace between organics and synthetics, in clear contradiction with the catalyst's asserion. Without ME2, peace would be impossible, and the conflict between organic and synthetic can not be solved. Furthermore, with the Geth VI, the Geth in general remain unsympathetic, much in line with their ME1 presentation. Without Legion, the Geth remain genocidal machines in the player's eyes and are consistent with their original purpose as evil enemies. In this way, not only are the endings improved, but the contrivances of the Rannoch arch make a lot more sense as well.

-The catalyst logic isnt valid in any context since the catalyst shouldn’t even exist. Didn’t it create the Reapers? If so then its little line of "the created will always destroy their creators" isn’t logical or make sense at all since the Reapers should have destroyed the Catalyst.

3. Cerberus: In ME1, Cerberus was a rogue black ops organization we knew little about. In ME3, they were the second coming of the Sith Empire. In ME2, they were a borderline terrorist organization that had noble goals but little in the way of morality, we got to know them better as well as get a general picture of their numbers and resources. ME3 blew of the morally gray portrayal of Cerberus in favor of a large villanous force. While it may not necessarily make more sense for them to go from ME1 Evil black ops to ME3 Evil Empire, it is easier for me to stomach than ME2 somewhat sympathetic gray to ME3 Evil Empire.

-I don’t recall seeing Cerberus in ME2 in any real terrorist like way. They were the only ones apparently trying to help Shepard. In ME2 they became a new source of resources to get the job done. Something the Council nor Earth was ready to do despite having a Reaper attack the Citadel. In ME1 Cerberus was barely a subplot to a few quests. At least in ME2 we got to see a small part of them before they got totally destroyed by bad characterization and butchering by ME3 half baked plot.

I totally agree on the second coming of the Sith Empire bit. Out of nowhere they have an army that rivals anything else out there, except the Reapers. Funny how a little black ops group turned into its own galactic superpower. There lies the problem. They should never have been put in the role of a sub antagonist for the game. I was fighting them more than the Reaper ground forces it seemed. They should have used the Cerberus idea to help Shepard not get in the way.

4. ME2 didn't have much impact on ME3 anyways: Consider this, the only squadmates to return from ME2 were already in ME1. The most far reaching decisions in the game were made almost entirely in ME1, such as the fate of the original council, Whether Wrex survived to save the council, and the fate of the Rachni Queen. The ME2 missions really only mattered in side missions if at all, and you get a few surviving secondary characters. The only ME2 missions that would matter are the ones in regards to the Genophage arch, as Mordin and Maelon's data play an important role there. Not even Rannoch would be an issue, since as mentioned above, the Geth would have retained their ME1 persona, making the conflict logical.

-ME1 didn’t have much impact on ME3 either. Kill the Rachni queen get a new one in ME3. Let the Council die, get a new one in ME3. Put Anderson as ambassador get Udina in ME3. Kill Wrex we get Wreav in ME2 and ME3. Have a game with a great ending get some drug induced crap in ME3.

After I played ME2, I figured that the way to beat the Reapers was tied into the humans having a rather unique dna (Something Mordin mentions on Tuchunka that I cant recal the exact words he uses) and that virus sub plot that was throughout ME2, the Omega virus, the genophage in part and the virus Legion wants to use on the Geth. I figured the combined forces of all the races would have created some sort of biological/computer combination virus to attack the reapers.

Nope, we get to go on a galaxy wide hunt for a super weapon… oh wait the plans are on Mars? Ok we get to go on a short jump from Earth to Mars to get the plans and find out the secret part, this catalyst thing was on the Citadel and the Reapers even bring it to us.

Surely you jest. All of the ME2 missions mattered otherwise you wouldn’t have all these cameo appearances in ME3 to become “War Assets”. This problem is again due to ME3 poorly thought out game development and maybe biting off more than they could handle. Don’t blame ME2 for broken promises of what should have been included in ME3. Sadly it is true that theses missions don’t really do squat for ME3 at all. By the way, don’t do the loyalty missions for Garrus and Tali and they get killed, so you are more or less screwed for squad mates in ME3 and especially so if you don’t have the From Ashes download.

-I think that ME3 should be removed from the trilogy and remade since it’s the one that has the most problems in it right from the start and they never stop. ME1 was great and ME2 was decent with a few problems that really annoy the hell out of me like the “Lets take everyone for a shuttle ride” bit. Maybe they should have just stopped there?