333 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

 Before everyone rolls their eyes and dismisses this as yet another parody thread, let's put aside the obvious criticism of certain topics implied by this post's existence and take the topic seriously for a while.

There exists a clear - to me, anyway - issue with regards to the way fans frame their criticisms and requests and that is their our lack of knowledge or experience with how games are actually made.  What does this mean?

It means, often, that such issues are discussed almost entirely reliant on a set of assumptions that are by definition baseless.  It's not impossible to overcome this, of course, sometimes someone with real knowledge  will shed some light on the whole debate, but more often than not people are left to fight over things they really do not understand.  In this manner, fans give themselves permission to believe that playing games for years gives them insight into how they are made, which is the same kind of delusion sports fans yelling at their favorite team's quarterback engage in on a regular basis.

What can be done about this?  Short of educating the entire BSN - which is not possible even if the BSN was willing to admit that they need to be educated at all - there's really only one option:  We need to stop pretending we have a right to have a "conversation" with BioWare.  Or at least, that such a conversation would be useful at all.  This is not an equal partnership.  That is not to say our preferences and opinions are not valuable, on the contrary.  Only that pretending our preferences give us something to teach the developers is not only presumptuous, it introduces a lot of noise into the discussions as half the topic is flooded with arguments over whether or not development even works the way people are assuming (and the answer is almost always "no.").  

Practically this means that when we talk about what we want to see in future installments, or what we didn't like about previous ones, we shouldn't frame a single aspect of our argument on exactly how we think the developers could do something differently.  We should frame it, instead, around what we prefer to experience and why as gamers we prefer to experience it that way. 

In short, telling developers that... for example... a toggle would be an "easy" answer, or that they should "simply" include something, etc, is not productive and just causes bickering among fans, it isn't actually useful to anyone.  Unless providing fodder for internet arguments is a kind of use.  For my part, I've gotten into so many pointless arguments with this board over whether or not something can be implemented or not, and what it might cost to do so, usually with barely any more knowledge of how things actually work than the person I'm arguing with.  It's thoroughly pointless.  

TL/DR:  Could we please just stick to describing what we liked and didn't like and why, and cut back on pretending we actually know how game production works?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:34 .

[Dhiro]

I believe that this can be solved swiftly with the addition of a toggle.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TL/DR:  Could we please just stick to describing what we liked and didn't like and why, and cut back on pretending we actually know how game production works?

Wouldn't this wipe out about 3/4ths of your posts?

[Faust1979]

They should make a toggle that does nothing it just says toggle you click on it but it has no effect whatsoever on the game. It's just for people that like toggles

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TL/DR:  Could we please just stick to describing what we liked and didn't like and why, and cut back on pretending we actually know how game production works?

Wouldn't this wipe out about 3/4ths of your posts?

Sure, why not.

And about 95% of everyone elses.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:44 .

[TheBlackAdder13]

Completely OT but I just have to say...I'M IN LOVE WITH YOUR WARDEN. BE MINE.

[hoorayforicecream]

Faust1979 wrote...

They should make a toggle that does nothing it just says toggle you click on it but it has no effect whatsoever on the game. It's just for people that like toggles

It's been done.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:49 .

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TL/DR:  Could we please just stick to describing what we liked and didn't like and why, and cut back on pretending we actually know how game production works?

Wouldn't this wipe out about 3/4ths of your posts?

Yep.

And about 95% of everyone elses.

Naturally.

People come to the BSN for a large range of reasons. If Fast Jimmy wants to pretend to be a game designer, what's the problem?

Are his threads taking up too much of your screen space?

[Masha Potato]

But people on teh internets know everything

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

People come to the BSN for a large range of reasons. If Fast Jimmy wants to pretend to be a game designer, what's the problem?

Are his threads taking up too much of your screen space?

This is a completely pointless response.  How pointless?

"People come to the BSN for a large range of reasons.  If upsettingshorts wants to pretend he has any authority to criticize the culture of fans on the BSN, what's the problem?"

That pointless.  Your posts are taking up too much of my screen space.

Furthermore, the fact I called myself out in the original post in much the same way you attempted to call me out in response, I have to question the merit of engaging with you in this thread at all.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Faust1979 wrote...

They should make a toggle that does nothing it just says toggle you click on it but it has no effect whatsoever on the game. It's just for people that like toggles

It's been done.

I lol'd. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 21 janvier 2013 - 11:57 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

 Before everyone rolls their eyes and dismisses this as yet another parody thread, let's put aside the obvious criticism of certain topics implied by this post's existence and take the topic seriously for a while.

There exists a clear - to me, anyway - issue with regards to the way fans frame their criticisms and requests and that is their our lack of knowledge or experience with how games are actually made.  What does this mean?

It means, often, that such issues are discussed almost entirely reliant on a set of assumptions that are by definition baseless.  It's not impossible to overcome this, of course, sometimes someone with real knowledge  will shed some light on the whole debate, but more often than not people are left to fight over things they really do not understand.  In this manner, fans give themselves permission to believe that playing games for years gives them insight into how they are made, which is the same kind of delusion sports fans yelling at their favorite team's quarterback engage in on a regular basis.

What can be done about this?  Short of educating the entire BSN - which is not possible even if the BSN was willing to admit that they need to be educated at all - there's really only one option:  We need to stop pretending we have a right to have a "conversation" with BioWare.  Or at least, that such a conversation would be useful at all.  This is not an equal partnership.  That is not to say our preferences and opinions are not valuable, on the contrary.  Only that pretending our preferences give us something to teach the developers is not only presumptuous, it introduces a lot of noise into the discussions as half the topic is flooded with arguments over whether or not development even works the way people are assuming (and the answer is almost always "no.").  

Practically this means that when we talk about what we want to see in future installments, or what we didn't like about previous ones, we shouldn't frame a single aspect of our argument on exactly how we think the developers could do something differently.  We should frame it, instead, around what we prefer to experience and why as gamers we prefer to experience it that way. 

In short, telling developers that... for example... a toggle would be an "easy" answer, or that they should "simply" include something, etc, is not productive and just causes bickering among fans, it isn't actually useful to anyone.  Unless providing fodder for internet arguments is a kind of use.  For my part, I've gotten into so many pointless arguments with this board over whether or not something can be implemented or not, and what it might cost to do so, usually with barely any more knowledge of how things actually work than the person I'm arguing with.  It's thoroughly pointless.  

TL/DR:  Could we please just stick to describing what we liked and didn't like and why, and cut back on pretending we actually know how game production works?

I have to consider, given the format and naming convention of this post, that this is more than slightly directed at me, personally.

Which is fine. 

I don't feel that in the posts that I put under this "Let's Have a Conversation About" series I have going that I do anything more than discuss my personal preferences or what I think works or doesn't. In fact, I don't think I've ever said in those threads "Bioware, you need to do this" or even particularly request that a certain feature be done (at least not in the OP, where the discussion is supposed to be a springboarding off point).

While I would be the first to confess to a lack of game design experience outside of Flash (and even that's extraordinarily limited) and how a AAA game is produced, I don't believe that should ever preclude someone from trying to describe, in as much detail as they can supply, what they did or did not like and why. 

Even if this isn't a poke at me, I'd still say the BSN has plenty of rights to say, ask and post anything they please on the BSN, as long as it doesn't violate the site rules. Because at the end of the day, Bioware will likely not take any advice we give as a mandate to be implemented, so any requests that do or do not get filled are solely an expectation the poster created. If it fails to materialize, the only person who is let down or disappointed by that is the poster themselves.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:02 .

[LolaLei]

Shorts, I totally agree with you. It's easy for the fans/gamers in general to say "just add this" or "you MUST implement that", but the majority of us haven't got the faintest idea how difficult, impossible, or sometimes ridiculous said requests can be.

It doesn't help when people demand things and throw insults towards the team instead of putting forward rational, well thought out questions/suggestions that they'd like to see. Not that everyone's guilty of it, but there's definitely been an increase of toxic threads popping up recently lol.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

TL/DR:  Could we please just stick to describing what we liked and didn't like and why, and cut back on pretending we actually know how game production works?

Wouldn't this wipe out about 3/4ths of your posts?

Yep.

And about 95% of everyone elses.

Naturally.

People come to the BSN for a large range of reasons. If Fast Jimmy wants to pretend to be a game designer, what's the problem?

Are his threads taking up too much of your screen space?

I suppose... I... appreciate the... White Knight...? I guess. Seemed a little backhanded and dismissive, but I'm cool with it.

[upsettingshorts]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

 I don't believe that should ever preclude someone from trying to describe, in as much detail as they can supply, what they did or did not like and why.

I specifically said that doing just that was not only acceptable, but ideal.  The issue is when the posts slip into explaining precisely how their preferences ought to be met.  Or why they weren't.

Likewise, the parody thread title was as I said... slightly misleading.  I borrowed your format to criticize a common habit, not something you specifically engage in with more regularity than anyone else.  Hell I engage in it.  

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I suppose... I... appreciate the... White Knight...? I guess. Seemed a little backhanded and dismissive, but I'm cool with it.

Maria wanting to come off as superior to someone she is criticizing and defending, both at the same time?

Never.

...while we're speaking of habits I engage in with regularity myself, less anyone think I have illusions to the contrary.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:05 .

[ISAWRIT]

In reply to OP:

Someone really needed to say this and I don't think it could have been said any more eloquently. Much appreciated. I'd much prefer to have conversations on what we would like and why as well. It'd be much more insightful than, "This should be/should have been in it because I think it's simple and therefore it must be easy to implement."

[Fast Jimmy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I specifically said that doing just that was not only acceptable, but ideal.  The issue is when the posts slip into explaining precisely how their preferences ought to be met.  Or why they weren't.

Likewise, the parody thread title was as I said... slightly misleading.  I borrowed your format to criticize a common habit, not something you specifically engage in with more regularity than anyone else.  Hell I engage in it.  

To be honest, I was expecting a diatribe about the design of chairs in RPGs. 


Its an under-discussed topic.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Agreeing with shorts.

It is actually helpful for game developers to hear the (clearly articulated) reasons why a gamer did or did not enjoy a certain aspect of their game. That's how playtesting works: someone sits down with a person playing their game and has the gamer describe their decision making and difficulties as they play.

But as far as bringing problems to their attention or proposing solutions to problems is concerned, well, that's what they have daily meetings for. They know, and they probably know better what the problems with any particular game are than anyone consumer-side.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

To be honest, I was expecting a diatribe about the design of chairs in RPGs.

Its an under-discussed topic.

In complete seriousness, I totally agree. I like good vidya game furniture design.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:13 .

[XX-Pyro]

I also first thought the topic would be the design of armchair's in RPGs. 100% serious there.

As for the topic, I tend to filter out posts that claim they have x knowledge or know of y process in game development, unless that person consistently posts things from a technical standpoint and reasonably backs up their claims with their own experience (people on the BSN I see post who do this: 1). That being said, discussing features regardless of how hard they are to implement is not a bad thing, because they can always be modified- although I too tend to be greatly annoyed when people pretend they have knowledge they really don't (as someone who hobby's in computer science, this gets VERY irritating online.)

[Anomaly-]

I feel like I'm guilty of this, and yet not. I don't claim to have the kind of knowledge of game development Bioware has, nor do I presume to do their job for them. However, I do have some experience with designing game systems, and when I talk about mechanics I draw on my own experience not just because I feel it adds credibility to my claims, but also because I really just can't help it. It bothers me when people fail to see the difference between a poor design and a good design with poor implementation. I believe my experience can provide concrete examples to illustrate the difference, and give credence to possible solutions. I don't really feel like I'm overstepping myself there.

That being said, when it comes to things like cinematics, art style, dialog, or anything else I don't have much experience with, I instinctively take much the same approach you mentioned. I just say simply, none of the portions of DA2's story that were intended to create an emotional reaction succeeded in doing so for me. I can't really say with 100% certainty why that is. Did I just not get enough time to grow attached to these characters? Did I not care about the conflict itself? Was it just the writing? It could be any combination of these, all 3, or none. I don't really claim to know. I can say that the dialog/party banter gave me far too much of a sitcom vibe, but again, I leave the why and the solution up to the developers.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 22 janvier 2013 - 12:56 .

[Darth Krytie]

This is the best post I've ever read in this entire forum, Shorts. Hands down.

[Naitaka]

This is the reason why Bioware hires community managers to manage the forum and collect information for the dev. I don't see why people should do their jobs for them, if they're of the opinion that a toggle would solve what they see as a problem they should be free to express said opinion as long as it's not directed toward the developer as an insult. As for what's "useful" or not, it's up for Bioware to sort through. I do have to agree that phrasing a suggestion with more respect would probably let it get through to the developers more easily, but do you honestly think that all the "suggestions" that people make on BSN are really what they appear to be?

[Knight of Dane]

Meh, just let people talk about what they want. I avoid the Fenris and Anders threads simply because the fandom of those characters doesn't interest me.

If you think someone is being ignorant or stupid, just ignore them. No one asked for you to educate them on how to request, demand or suggest game content.

[upsettingshorts]

The problem is essentially two-fold:

First, by wasting time debating the practical means of implementing whatever preference a given user has, despite not having the first clue of the practical issues at hand, introduces a massive amount of noise to any discussion.

Second, it introduces and permeates a presumptuous, dismissive, and often hostile attitude only the most emphatically in-denial poster would fail to admit exists in communities like these. The attitude itself is not necessarily a problem - at least not one I'm trying to address - but it creates an atmosphere which, to put it lightly, does not encourage BioWare to participate.

Furthermore, BioWare doesn't exactly have a ton of moderators and community managers here. A major presence on the boards - I'm speaking almost exclusively about John Epler and Allan Schumacher here - are entirely voluntary and not something to be taken for granted. If habits and behaviors can be altered without compromising our preferences, in a way that encourages more voluntary contribution of informed, substantive discussion (on BioWare's part or our own) then I don't see the problem in advocating it.

Or we could just call BioWare lazy for not making everything exactly the way we want and damn the torpedoes.

Naitaka wrote...

do you honestly think that all the "suggestions" that people make on BSN are really what they appear to be?

If by that do you mean I think such posters take their arguments seriously?

You bet, and then some.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 01:43 .

[Naitaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Naitaka wrote...

do you honestly think that all the "suggestions" that people make on BSN are really what they appear to be?

If by that do you mean I think such posters take their arguments seriously?

You bet, and then some.

I meant that some time people just want to vent and don't care if their argument gets taken seriously by Bioware or not. Hell, I've done it from time to time myself to be perfectly honest about it.

[Knight of Dane]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Second, it introduces and permeates a presumptuous, dismissive, and often hostile attitude only the most emphatically in-denial poster would fail to admit exists in communities like these. The attitude itself is not necessarily a problem - at least not one I'm trying to address - but it creates an atmosphere which, to put it lightly, does not encourage BioWare to participate.

I would love a better tone, sadly I think I tend to add to the harsher sounding threads now and then 

For the most part I assume people stay neutral if not friendly on the forums, but it's often hard to interpret tone in written dialogue.

Modifié par Knight of Dane, 22 janvier 2013 - 01:44 .