333 réponses à ce sujet

[LolaLei]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This was previously addressed.

But really, more flies with honey than vinegar, on the BSN? Nahhhh.

I've restated the topic's message several times, responded to Fast Jimmy personally, and mentioned that I am just as guilty as the next guy in perpetrating the very behaviors I am criticizing here. If that does not satisfy you, then I would say you are being too sensitive.

That said, I am not sure what your point has been. There are probably occasional exceptions. Some people are developers. A few here and there might simply be using terminology wrong. But infrequent exceptions do not disprove whole trends. Certainly I am painting with broad strokes, but the forum is a big place and there's a lot of posters to cover. I've been active long enough to have observed certain trends, and indeed, participated in them. As such, I'm being specific in what posters I am speaking of, and what kinds of posts I am speaking of. If they or their posts do not qualify, this thread has nothing to do with them and they can ignore it.

Out of curiosity, how long have you been on these forums?

Modifié par LolaLei, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:42 .

[upsettingshorts]

LolaLei wrote...

Out of curiosity, how long have you been on these forums for?

Eh, a couple years.  Not as long as some.  Maria, Sylvius, and In Exile are a few I know have been around for much longer.

But I have been ridiculously, no, embarrassingly active for large parts of it.  I've forgotten the procedure for finding out how many posts I've made but last I checked it was somewhere over 14,000 or so.  

Edit:  I have done the math, it is actually ~ 13,500.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 05:11 .

[LolaLei]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Out of curiosity, how long have you been on these forums for?

Eh, a couple years.  Not as long as some.  Maria, Sylvius, and In Exile are a few I know have been around for much longer.

But I have been ridiculously, no, embarrassingly active for large parts of it.  I've forgotten the procedure for finding out how many posts I've made but last I checked it was somewhere over 14,000 or so.  

Has it always been this bad or is that just a recent thing? I heard that the devs used to hang out in here more often back in the day.

[upsettingshorts]

You'd have to ask one of them. For my part I'd say it's gotten worse since DA2 and ME3, but that'd come as no shock to anyone.

I mean, as far as this thread topic is concerned, it's about the same. The language is a bit more hostile and dismissive but the armchair developer thing is older than BioWare. It happens with everything - such as in the sports examples posted - so it's hardly new or exclusive to this forum.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:51 .

[LolaLei]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

You'd have to ask one of them. For my part I'd say it's gotten worse since DA2 and ME3, but that'd come as no shock to anyone.

I mean, as far as this thread topic is concerned, it's about the same. The language is a bit more hostile and dismissive but the armchair developer thing is probably older than BioWare. It happens with everything - such as in the sports examples posted - so it's hardly new or exclusive to this forum.

Makes me wonder if things will get better or worse once DA3 comes out. It'll certainly be interesting to witness, whatever the outcome.

[axl99]

Before the users' toxic comments turned them off. And in extreme cases when one of them got lynched - like a retiring WoW designer making his farewell posts on the Blizzard forums.

And I can't remember for the life of me which DXHR interview it was, but one of the leads or producers at Eidos made a haltingly snide comment about some members of the community passing themselves off as armchair developers criticising the progress of the game during production. Regardless of the manner it was said, the fact that someone had to bring it up in a conversation is quite telling.

Who likes random people telling them how they should be doing their jobs?

Modifié par axl99, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:55 .

[Danny Boy 7]

In Exile wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...
Oh I agree, I'm just saying that regardless of how someone frames their inflammatory/ignorant comments it's not gonna change how much is recieved by Bioware or how much noise is going to be heard

Right, so long as the thing is inflammatory, I agree. 

all I mean is that they recognize when someone is trying to be helpful and get their request across as best as possible.

Doesn't that go right back to how someone frames their comment?

Well what Upsettingshorts was getting at (in my opinion I maybe wrong) was that removing the "do this this way to make it work" text will lessen the noise that is inherent with any thread discussing anything that interests people when really regardless of how you structure it people will guess your intent despite what you actually say if you can follow.

I could be a total ass in my structuring, but still be delivering good feedback and depending on if it's even plausible a developer could look at it, like it, and pass it on in a more realistic way that suits the restraints of their particular project.

As an example (sorry if this is getting a bit long) I was talking among some friends about how we'd like romances to look this time around in DA3. Adding a bit of failure while also providing the ease of the heart icons. There'd be three you can choose from (if you partake in flirting with said person) and depending on which you chose you could come on to strong, do it just right, not be perfect, but not turn off the character completely or even flirt at the wrong time.

If I were to post this as a thread I'd give the above in a more fleshed out light, probably give an example of how it could work if Bioware implemented it via possible companions and say how they could get back to the original dialogue the player was having with companion x. But if I were to leave out the implementaion/how I'd have Bioware do/want them to do it/think they would do it I'd never get across the full effect it might have if in some magical world it got implemented.

So much of this is wishful thinking, but so is discussing companions for a game that's been announced (after the last game maybe or for the game after the upcoming one sure) but really if you're posting something here you're leaving it up for discussion and as such you're going to get pointless noise because people want to voice their opinion on said feature.

If I post my romance request here I'm doing it to talk about it with people here and see if they share my beliefs or find it compelling, if I wanted to get something to the devs I'll talk with them on twitter since I have a much better chance of having a long conversation with them there than on here.

[Naitaka]

Even back during DA2's time it wasn't this bad. I remember one of the developer that handles combat used to visit the build forum quite often prior to the release. Also after release we had a small DA2 Patch 2 Testing group where many players interact with the developer directly to prioritize problems to be fixed. IMO, ME3 was really the turning point for the community especially after some of the responses from Bioware that were....deemed unsatisfactory or insulting to some.

[axl99]

Lynching writers that weren't related to Mass Effect was also a big no no.

[upsettingshorts]

I will concede the Mass Effect forums are much worse. My criticism of the community then was... harsher.

There are also bright spots of good, positive (in the sense of valuable, not effusively praiseworthy) discussion as well.

That said, it's not as if anyone has - or likely will - seriously challenge the assertion I've made that armchair developers exist, and exist in droves.  If anyone does, I'd love to visit the forum they've been following.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:06 .

[Danny Boy 7]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Aren't you making the assumption that some of the people making posts with these titles aren't game developers?

It's pretty easy to pick out the people who aren't. These folks tend to misuse industry terms, don't consider basic and common constraints, don't understand the magnitude of repercussions certain suggested changes will make, and generally don't exhibit understanding of how the development process works because they've never needed to, or been exposed to that part of the development.

True but as I recall not all terms are industry based or should I say not...all encompassing...know what I mean? Sometimes it's studio based, jargen they personally use to refer to certain sub systems. You could say that even fellow developers are unaware of the magnitude or lack there of that certain suggestions can have on a certain studio's current project.

As an example in a field I'm actually well versed in, the common American Football position of Runningback or (RB) is often refered to Halfback (HB) which isn't completely unknown, but would every other or even most football teams/coaches know that we refer to our three backs as Wing Backs instead of HBs or even RBs. Some highschools like to refer to a wide reciever who stands back and to the left of a tight end as a wing back or even another RB when the player's position could just be another tight end who for that particular formation is now placed slightly behind his counterpart because we need him to either block or catch based on the defense's choice of lineman or lack there of.

Not to mention some developers may just refer to a system the wrong way. Not to say that it's some strange pseudo language but just because someone doesn't use the right jargen as it applies to my departement/team etc doesn't necessarily mean they're not a member of the industry.

It isn't just the misuse of commonly-accepted terminology. It's the terminology misuse combined with lack of basic development scheduling, lack of constraint awareness, and lack of reasonable estimation of how much time and energy it takes for certain features.

Using your football example, it isn't just somebody who confuses the term 'running back' with 'half back' or 'wing back'. It's somebody who doesn't use the right terms and also doesn't know the basics of how to construct plays, doesn't know the difference between the quarterback and the running back, doesn't understand what sort of results one can expect from a training schedule of so long, and doesn't know how long the season is or when it begins. But they act as if they do.

I've been to a good number of developer conferences and worked with hundreds of devs over the course of my career. I've met, chatted with, interviewed, interviewed with, swapped war stories with, drank with, and partied with devs from all over the world. There's a significant difference between "bump mapping" vs "normal mapping" and the kind of pie-in-the-sky stuff posted on the BSN.

Oh I understand, but in an industry like gaming (which yes I'm afraid I have no first person knowledge on so forgive any ignorance on my part (no rudeness intended by previous comment) time contsraint/scheduling etc can't be universal across studios let alone projects. As pseudocognition said it's a very tight knit (my words) community where crossover between developers is natural and not uncommon, but developement of a new product/feature system may take no time at all or forever depending on the people working on it and the tools they have at their disposal. Please correct me if I'm wrong though, but depending on the company say an indie developer compared to a bigger one (maybe not triple A) either could still develop something such as idk a new zone at the same time or drastically different?

I mean from my understanding the mechanics of gaming can take forever, but I (minor indie developer) may beable to produce x feature in a day or two, where big Bioware or Ubisoft may produce that same feature in an hour or so.

So a misundertanding or complete lack of knowledge of developement of a system isn't non-dev specific is all I'm saying. Again I may be wrong though.

[Danny Boy 7]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I will concede the Mass Effect forums are much worse. My criticism of the community then was... harsher.

There are also bright spots of good, positive (in the sense of valuable, not effusively praiseworthy) discussion as well.

That said, it's not as if anyone has - or likely will - seriously challenge the assertion I've made that armchair developers exist, and exist in droves.  If anyone does, I'd love to visit the forum they've been following.

I agree with that. I'd say that it's easy to mistake armchair developers with people with requests though especially if the person uses terminology that crosses mediums if that makes sense? Shading for example means different things when refering to art shading as opposed to...engine shading capabilities.

[Sundance31us]

LolaLei wrote...

Out of curiosity, how long have you been on these forums?

There's a join date under everyone's avatar.

[Fiddzz]

I'm fairly new to the industry and was blow away by by the difference between what I thought and what it actually takes to make a game.

[spirosz]

I prefer not experience gaming journalists becoming VA in future Bioware games.

[Sylvius the Mad]

This is why I generally limit my requests to features BioWare has included previously. I know they can code hotbuttons to require keys used in combination, because they've done it before. I know they can use grid inventories, because they've done it before.

The only exception that springs to mind is my request that they encode the PC's voice and the NPC's voices in separate audio files so that we could adjust the volume independently (as we already can with sound effects and music).

But if I ever ask for a feature that isn't feasible, I'd like to be told why it isn't feasible. Being educated is something I want. Moreover, I'd like not to be told that the features I request are unnecessary, only to find upon release than they absolutely are (like the combat log in DAO - they said I wouldn't need the combat log, and that the floating damage numbers would suffice, and they were completely wrong about that).

And I do, as you request, explain in great detail what the gameplay benefits of my suggested features are.

[LolaLei]

Sundance31us wrote...

LolaLei wrote...

Out of curiosity, how long have you been on these forums?

There's a join date under everyone's avatar.

D'oh! I'm gonna blame that one on lack of sleep. 

Still, I wouldn't know what the forum was like back then anway lol!

[Onyx Jaguar]

Hmm

[spirosz]

J. Reezy wrote...

spirosz wrote...

I prefer not experience gaming journalists becoming VA in future Bioware games.

Wait, is the lack of experience in gaming "journalism" your reason for not liking the inclusion of Chobot. I figured it would be because she sucks as a VA.

It's the lack of experience and it's sketchy at best, IMO.  Unless Bioware/Chobot shows her history with VA to prove me wrong, then I'll back off from what I first believed.  Also, it's related to certain cuts from existing characters (which I understand because of priority budget), which "content" is more important to me, won't necessarily be important to Bioware.

Modifié par spirosz, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:49 .

[Danny Boy 7]

Blair Brown wrote...

I'm fairly new to the industry and was blow away by by the difference between what I thought and what it actually takes to make a game.

Not to say this confrontationally or in a rude manner, but are you saying I'm wrong, which I have no issue with as you actually work for the company I'd be requesting things from. 

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Blair Brown wrote...

I'm fairly new to the industry and was blow away by by the difference between what I thought and what it actually takes to make a game.

I can only imagine.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Oh I understand, but in an industry like gaming (which yes I'm afraid I have no first person knowledge on so forgive any ignorance on my part (no rudeness intended by previous comment) time contsraint/scheduling etc can't be universal across studios let alone projects. As pseudocognition said it's a very tight knit (my words) community where crossover between developers is natural and not uncommon, but developement of a new product/feature system may take no time at all or forever depending on the people working on it and the tools they have at their disposal. Please correct me if I'm wrong though, but depending on the company say an indie developer compared to a bigger one (maybe not triple A) either could still develop something such as idk a new zone at the same time or drastically different?

I mean from my understanding the mechanics of gaming can take forever, but I (minor indie developer) may beable to produce x feature in a day or two, where big Bioware or Ubisoft may produce that same feature in an hour or so.

So a misundertanding or complete lack of knowledge of developement of a system isn't non-dev specific is all I'm saying. Again I may be wrong though.

My comment about a tight-knit community actually has a lot to do with how much overlap there is and how much common understanding there is between devs of different sized studios and such.

For example where I work is 'indie' but most of the people working there are from AAA game studios. Some have worked AAA and indie before, one or the other, or neither. If one person is not familiar with how things work at smaller or larger studios relative to their previous experience, they will soon be informed.

Overall the same stresses and pressures occur at both scales, development pipelines are basically the same, everyone has their eyes on the same technology regardless of whether they are using it in their current game, everyone has friends working on bigger/smaller games and everyone gossips, etc etc.

So I have to respectfully disagree; in my experience both indie and AAA devs draw from basically the same giant pool of knowledge, and the only divide in understanding is between devs and non-devs.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 22 janvier 2013 - 05:32 .

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

This is why I generally limit my requests to features BioWare has included previously. I know they can code hotbuttons to require keys used in combination, because they've done it before. I know they can use grid inventories, because they've done it before.

Well, technically, it can be employees that are no longer with the firm. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

Oh I understand, but in an industry like gaming (which yes I'm afraid I have no first person knowledge on so forgive any ignorance on my part (no rudeness intended by previous comment) time contsraint/scheduling etc can't be universal across studios let alone projects. As pseudocognition said it's a very tight knit (my words) community where crossover between developers is natural and not uncommon, but developement of a new product/feature system may take no time at all or forever depending on the people working on it and the tools they have at their disposal. Please correct me if I'm wrong though, but depending on the company say an indie developer compared to a bigger one (maybe not triple A) either could still develop something such as idk a new zone at the same time or drastically different?

I mean from my understanding the mechanics of gaming can take forever, but I (minor indie developer) may beable to produce x feature in a day or two, where big Bioware or Ubisoft may produce that same feature in an hour or so.

So a misundertanding or complete lack of knowledge of developement of a system isn't non-dev specific is all I'm saying. Again I may be wrong though.

The term "indie developer" runs the gamut from the amateurs and hobbyists who make mods and small apps on the app stores to the large established independent studios who do things on their own, like Telltale Games, Obsidian Entertainment, and Double Fine. Saying "indie" isn't really saying much, but what divides the hobbyists from the serious ones is a real production schedule. There's a huge difference between someone who spends their free time on something, and one who actively makes a living doing it.

The other main issue is the sheer size of the project. There's a whole world of difference in terms of scale that one has to think about. While a hobbyist could spend a few weeks on a specific feature, at the AAA level it's about getting the project done within a certain amount of time. It takes this much time to create environment art, so you need this many environment artists. It takes this much time to create game systems, so you need this many gameplay programmers. It takes this much time to create the engine on top of which the game programmers build the tools, so you need this many engine programmers. And as you add more people, you need people to make sure they are getting what they need, tracking the development, and keeping them on schedule. So you need this many producers. The production schedule makes a huge difference.

It's like being a baker at home and making some awesome cupcakes, then deciding you want to start a whole cupcake company. You can't just use your oven and tools at home and ingredients bought from the local supermarket, it doesn't work on the kind of scale you need in order to make a livable wage. You need an industrial oven, wholesale ingredients, a store front, and with it you need bakers to keep the ovens running, store managers to stay on top of the inventory, and cashiers and sales people to make deals and such. There's a world of difference between someone who sells cupcakes on weekends at the flea market, and someone who incorporates and employs people.

As an indie dev, there is some stuff that can potentially carry over. But not everyone understands what it is like at a macro level with dozens of peoples' livelihoods and careers hinging on it, as well as the constraints and requirements involved from multiple sides. Not all indie devs are the same, and not all of them understand what sort of constraints and requirements there are in AAA game development.