333 réponses à ce sujet

[Danny Boy 7]

AmstradHero wrote...

Danny Boy 7 wrote...
I don't see how they're agreeing with you is relevant though. Does lack of experience in a field preclude true dev status? Sorry if I'm getting snippy I don't mean to. My uncle was in the army, he never fired a rifle, never uses the jargen when talking with me or my cousin's husband, yet we don't think he's NOT a soldier because his job wasn't one that we or the general ranks were involved in, nor do I call the men guiding our ships in or filing papers civilians because they haven't been in combat. They just either haven't had the chance or there skill set don't require them to leave. 

In a word? Yes.

If you haven't done something and don't understand the in-and-outs of the practical application of the knowledge, it is very difficult to make an accurate comment on how things work.  To quote: "In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not."

If you've never fired a rifle, you're not a combat soldier. You might serve in the army, but you're not qualified to talk about what it is like to be on the battlefiled. You might know about the tactics involved at a macro level and strategy and logistics, but you have not a whit of understanding of what it's truly like to be in combat and being fired upon.

If you've never tried to balance and continually test a game to judge the appropriate power curve for a character to ensure a good challenge for players of different skill levels, then you don't understand how much time is involved and the complex relationships between the different factors at play.

This isn't to say that players can't necessarily make good assessments and criticism of a game, but the routinely simplistic suggestions of "just change this" overlook the complexities of a modern game and their mechanics, because players haven't delved into the field to understand all the effects that "simple" change would have.

Okay maybe I need to separate my arguments a bit here, because I'm doing a sh!te job of it.

I agree that players should not be directing devs in the process of their profession nor berate said dev in how easy their job is because they know jack about it. Non-devs can have some really good suggestions/assessments as you said I'm not arguing that point, they can have equally sh!te suggestions as well. No argument here and I can see why simplistic "just change this" threads are incredibly irritating, the same way someone saying that all the garbage man does is pick up the trash. It's turning hard work into a menial often smug remark that makes what they do less than what it is, which is hours of hard work for someone. Thats rude, ignorant and overall just demeaning to the person doing the job.

However Upsettingshorts and hoorayforicecream were making the assumption that only non-devs are making these stupid threads which is where I find an issue. Now I will admit that 80 percent of the threads are likely made by non-devs or even less (we don't know after all), which is not the issue, however the assumption that ONLY non-devs make them is shortsighted because a dev can still make a suggestion that is stupid because they might not have the experience with that departement, feature etc or the pressure/scheduling may be drastically different in their particular environement. Does that make them not a dev? If you're answer is no than you should be able to say that while not all devs likely make these inflammatory threads, it's silly to assume that they don't, because they could after all have done so and with the amount of studios and diversity of what it means to be a developer it's not like it's improbable. I just don't think they want to imagine that someone who goes through what they do would make a thread asking for something stupid or insensitive as what those simplistic threads suggest.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

I think you are greatly overestimating the amount of non-BW devs on this forum. I only know of three. And as far as I know, they haven't started threads recently. But that's just an aside; I will let somebody else tackle your question more thoroughly.

And just speaking about devs who I know, but if any of them wanted to talk about a game, they probably know 5 people working on that very game and would just text them or something instead of posting on a forum.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 22 janvier 2013 - 10:08 .

[Danny Boy 7]

Pseudocognition wrote...

I think you are greatly overestimating the amount of non-BW devs on this forum. I only know of three. And as far as I know, they haven't started threads. But that's just an aside; I will let somebody else tackle your question more thoroughly.

I'm not really debating that somehow the BSN has become a place where devs from all over the world come to post or even that they're a majority, but to imagine that they'd come here announce themselves and post is equally silly if you think about it, know what I mean?

It's not that I imagine that scores of indie game devs post insensitive comments, but is it unimaginable that they'd post a suggestion on something they know nothing about? I really don't think so, sadly I'm not smart enough to just let people think what they want because honestly I could be wrong, but I'm arguing that to say that only non-devs make stupid suggestions or rather ignorant suggestions is silly because we don't have some counter keeping track of when non-BW devs make comments and whether they're ignorant of the team's scheduling or something else. 

Again I'm not arguing that most of the threads aren't created by non-devs or even that all of them aren't, but to assume it is as silly as suggesting that to be racially insensitive you have to be a member of a different ethnicity. Though luckily I don't consider these two subjects to be more than barely relatable.


Edit: At any rate I've spent way to much time arguing and derailing the thread, to which I apologize Upsettingshorts as honestly that wasn't my intent and I really am sorry about that. So feel free to reply to my posts but I won't be replying myself as it's not like I'm getting anywhere.

Modifié par Danny Boy 7, 22 janvier 2013 - 10:13 .

[Knight of Dane]

Orian Tabris wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

Meh, just let people talk about what they want. I avoid the Fenris and Anders threads simply because the fandom of those characters doesn't interest me.

If you think someone is being ignorant or stupid, just ignore them. No one asked for you to educate them on how to request, demand or suggest game content.

I try to educate people on facts, rather than on making their voice be heard (probably because most people ignore me anyways). I haven't seen anyone actually do what you've descirbed here, anyway.

I feel I have to get out my frustration at people who hate on Leliana, purely because they are ignorant and stupid . Even if people ignore me. I especially have to do this, when there is clear evidence to the contrary of what they believe (i.e. Leliana can be trusted, because if she had an alterior motive, the Guardian would have mentioned it when he looked into her mind or soul or whatever).

I also have to defend Tallis, because people are uptight, and thus, can't help but look down on her character. This happens with other characters as well, but you can't change everyone's opinions - as I've found the hard way.

And yes, you cannot open the eyes of those who are closed off and unwilling to receive criticism or to settle on a topical truce (as is the history of humankind). You also can't get people off their high-horse, without being a master of communication and all it contains.

That's all fine and good, I defend my favorite characters too. I've been part of the Merrill-sided blood mage war since Dragon Age 2 came out just like you defend those.

I don't have an issue discussing Dragon Age on the Dragon Age forum.

But telling people how to write on the forum is a waste of time, they are not going to listen, and as long as they don't overstep the rules and behave in a proper manner, I can't see why we should concern ourselves that they are stupid, just keep proving your own points.

It's a waste of energy and you never get any results. Ignore those that ignore fact and you should come out on top.

[Thomas Andresen]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Before everyone rolls their eyes and dismisses this as yet another parody thread, let's put aside the obvious criticism of certain topics implied by this post's existence and take the topic seriously for a while.
--snip--

I love this post so much I want to take it home, make babies with it and place them in key governmental positions so that the world can be a better place.

I will beat you to it!

Danny Boy 7 wrote...

I'm not really debating that somehow the BSN has become a place where devs from all over the world come to post or even that they're a majority, but to imagine that they'd come here announce themselves and post is equally silly if you think about it, know what I mean?

I think most game developers(who are also fans of BioWare games) shy this place like the plague. I am unsure of what that says about Pseudocognition and hoorayforicecream, but that's what I think. I am completely and utterly amazed by how often David Gaider posts here, for example.

Knight of Dane wrote...

But telling people how to write on the forum is a waste of time, they are not going to listen, and as long as they don't overstep the rules and behave in a proper manner, I can't see why we should concern ourselves that they are stupid, just keep proving your own points.

It's a waste of energy and you never get any results. Ignore those that ignore fact and you should come out on top.

upsettingshorts have already stated that is aware of this, which is part of the reason(presumably) that he wrote his post. He knows that his point isn't likely to change anything. The point is that the amount of noise reduces the amount of relevant and useful stuff that gets through, and in the end, it's proven BSN to be lethally toxic.

Modifié par Thomas Andresen, 22 janvier 2013 - 01:57 .

[Maclimes]

Are you guys really arguing about arguing?

So, it has come to this.

[upsettingshorts]

Maclimes wrote...

Are you guys really arguing about arguing?

So, it has come to this.

No, more asserting that arguing over things we have no practical knowledge of is a pointless waste of time.

Arguing amongst ourselves over content or features in of itself is fine.

Knight of Dane wrote...

But telling people how to write on the forum is a waste of time, they are not going to listen, and as long as they don't overstep the rules and behave in a proper manner, I can't see why we should concern ourselves that they are stupid, just keep proving your own points.

In addition to what Thomas Andresen said in reply, I also said that the forums were not uniformly stupid.

But yeah, some people are.  That's just simple math.  

However, if just one intelligent poster browses this thread and thinks to themselves, "Gee I do that quite a bit.  I should probably do it less, or not at all."  Then mission accomplished.

In addition should anyone who agrees with this post see another user engaging in armchair development in another thread, they could link to it in an effort to get the person to re-evaluate their message.  I certainly will.

Ultimately all threads are, on some level, a waste of time anyway.  Doesn't ever stop anyone if they've got something they want to get off their chest.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:07 .

[Itkovian]

Good post, OP, I rather liked it.

If there's something I've learned in my career as programmer, it's that whenever someone who isn't direclty working on a project says that something coding-related should be simple to do, an angel dies.

And gaming forums kill legions of angels every day. The fields of Elysium are littered with the rotting carcasses of angelic beings.

[Knight of Dane]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

But telling people how to write on the forum is a waste of time, they are not going to listen, and as long as they don't overstep the rules and behave in a proper manner, I can't see why we should concern ourselves that they are stupid, just keep proving your own points.

It's a waste of energy and you never get any results. Ignore those that ignore fact and you should come out on top.

upsettingshorts have already stated that is aware of this, which is part of the reason(presumably) that he wrote his post. He knows that his point isn't likely to change anything. The point is that the amount of noise reduces the amount of relevant and useful stuff that gets through, and in the end, it's proven BSN to be lethally toxic.

I didn't quote upsettingshorts for what I wrote, did I? 

[Fast Jimmy]

There is, of course, another side to this debate. Where non-dev BSNers suggest that Bioware cut out or resuce features that are known to consume resources at a far more rapid rate than more low-tech counterparts, like voice acting, cinematic dialogue and the Save Import mechanic. Can forumites give a reasonable postulation on what features they wouldn't mind seeing go to the wayside? Or is that considered too much speaking out of a stated expertise as well?

[upsettingshorts]

As long as it's, "I don't like [x] and don't appreciate what it brings to the table" I don't really see the problem.

If it's like, "Get rid of voice acting and spend those resources on more levels" or "they should stop wasting money on multiplayer and spend it all on single player" then... well...

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:20 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

There is, of course, another side to this debate. Where non-dev BSNers suggest that Bioware cut out or resuce features that are known to consume resources at a far more rapid rate than more low-tech counterparts, like voice acting, cinematic dialogue and the Save Import mechanic. Can forumites give a reasonable postulation on what features they wouldn't mind seeing go to the wayside? Or is that considered too much speaking out of a stated expertise as well?

Just say what you like and don't like. Frame it in terms of what you enjoy and don't enjoy, and don't try to help determine their production schedule or allocation of resources. There are developers whose careers are dedicated to keeping track of those things - they're called producers. It's up to them to decide what they feel is the best allocation of resources, and since you only have superficial knowledge of the cost and priority of such features, you really can't make an informed suggestion.

[Fast Jimmy]

What if I say I do understand what Feature X brings to the the table (at least for me) but if those resources could even be not applied at all, so that a certain million number of copies NEED to be sold to make a profit - like Dead Space 3, from what I have heard - and result in less pressure to develop a widely appealing product?

Again, to use the Dead Space 3 example, some fans have interpreted dev remarks for that game's development to mean they will stripping out most of the scarier elements of the series, since many gamers don't like to be scared. But that was one of the huge draws of the series, so it may make the game even more unlikely to sell, ironically enough.

Are these types of conversations permissible under the Upsetting Shorts Forum Etiquette Ominbus (USFEO) of 2013?

[upsettingshorts]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Are these types of conversations permissible under the Upsetting Shorts Forum Etiquette Ominbus (USFEO) of 2013?

How many times do I need to say I have no authority to compel anyone to post the way I want?  Do I need to say it again?  All I'm doing is arguing why people ought to.  Nobody has to agree.  There is no penalty for disagreeing with me.

As to the rest of your post, I'll defer to others.  My instinct is - again - that we don't really have enough information.  Maybe post release, when we can frame the discussion around our reaction to what ended up actually happening, but before it seems like it's speculation among people who don't know anything over statements a dev said that may or may not mean what people think.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:39 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

I was going for a more playful tone, not antagonistic. Sorry, I forgot to use my smilie face.

I actually like the ring of USFEO. It needs to have a charter document. And Terms and Conditions! Nothing is official without Terms and Condiitons in legalese.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

There is, of course, another side to this debate. Where non-dev BSNers suggest that Bioware cut out or resuce features that are known to consume resources at a far more rapid rate than more low-tech counterparts, like voice acting, cinematic dialogue and the Save Import mechanic.

I will say, unrelatedly, that there's a difference between calling it a higher cost feature and a useless one, and you have a tendency to go with useless versus higher cot/different.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

What if I say I do understand what Feature X brings to the the table (at least for me) but if those resources could even be not applied at all, so that a certain million number of copies NEED to be sold to make a profit - like Dead Space 3, from what I have heard - and result in less pressure to develop a widely appealing product?

I'd imagine VO is actually a lot less costly than 3D graphics, full stop. But of course this is where the "no knowledge of the process" part comes in. Or any kind of realistic physics effects. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:41 .

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

There is, of course, another side to this debate. Where non-dev BSNers suggest that Bioware cut out or resuce features that are known to consume resources at a far more rapid rate than more low-tech counterparts, like voice acting, cinematic dialogue and the Save Import mechanic.

I will say, unrelatedly, that there's a difference between calling it a higher cost feature and a useless one, and you have a tendency to go with useless versus higher cot/different.

You wound me, sir. 

But this thread is not about me and my personal preferences. I'm just trying to understand what posts should be avoided in the future to make the world here on the BSN a better place. 

[hoorayforicecream]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

What if I say I do understand what Feature X brings to the the table (at least for me) but if those resources could even be not applied at all, so that a certain million number of copies NEED to be sold to make a profit - like Dead Space 3, from what I have heard - and result in less pressure to develop a widely appealing product?

Again, to use the Dead Space 3 example, some fans have interpreted dev remarks for that game's development to mean they will stripping out most of the scarier elements of the series, since many gamers don't like to be scared. But that was one of the huge draws of the series, so it may make the game even more unlikely to sell, ironically enough.

Are these types of conversations permissible under the Upsetting Shorts Forum Etiquette Ominbus (USFEO) of 2013?

The retail model will always require a number of copies that need to be sold to make a profit for any game. It isn't really up to you (heck, or even most of the devs that post here) to worry about that sort of thing. Doing so would be a similar situation - you lack the information and experience to make that call.

Just stick to saying what it is you like, and why you like it. Or what you dislike, and why you dislike it. You don't need to offer suggestions on how to fix it. You don't need to offer suggestions on their production schedule. You don't need to offer economic advice. Just identify what it is you like and dislike about the game and move on.

The point of this post isn't to force anyone to do anything. It's to try to cut down noise in an effort to make the posts here on the forum more useful to developers who might read them. It's natural to for people to want their ideas to be considered more, and they will try to qualify them as if they have consensus behind them, or by trying to argue a developer into submission, or by trying to justify it for economic reasons, or whatever, because they think that these will lend the argument more weight than simply the value of their opinion. This assumption is false.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 22 janvier 2013 - 03:47 .

[Wulfram]

I would like a 200 hour fantasy epic, with branching plotlines from the start.

I would like full size cities of 100,000 people, all of whom have fully fleshed out personalities and are capable of passing the Turing test.

I don't like it that not every strand of hair or blade of grass is individually animated will full physics.

I'd like every copy of the game to come with a gold statue of Leliana.

[Fast Jimmy]

^

This is a funny, but accurate, post of how the BSN would look if we stopped acting like we had any concept of game development constraints (true or false) and just said what we want, didn't want, liked and didn't like. For anyone to then come along and say posts should be more realistic, that's assuming knowledge on the part of the BSN poster that they then do know SOMETHING about the logistics of game design.

[hoorayforicecream]

Wulfram wrote...

I would like a 200 hour fantasy epic, with branching plotlines from the start.

I would like full size cities of 100,000 people, all of whom have fully fleshed out personalities and are capable of passing the Turing test.

I don't like it that not every strand of hair or blade of grass is individually animated will full physics.

I'd like every copy of the game to come with a gold statue of Leliana.

This sort of post is actually more useful to devs than economic/arguing/accusatory ones.

[eroeru]

Naitaka wrote...

This is the reason why Bioware hires community managers to manage the forum and collect information for the dev. I don't see why people should do their jobs for them, if they're of the opinion that a toggle would solve what they see as a problem they should be free to express said opinion as long as it's not directed toward the developer as an insult. As for what's "useful" or not, it's up for Bioware to sort through. I do have to agree that phrasing a suggestion with more respect would probably let it get through to the developers more easily, but do you honestly think that all the "suggestions" that people make on BSN are really what they appear to be?

This.

The problem is essentially the lack of respect and short nerves of some. Fast Jimmy isn't at fault for any of the forum's shortcomings. Shorts' is though.

[Wulfram]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

This sort of post is actually more useful to devs than economic/arguing/accusatory ones.

I don't see how. 

It doesn't tell you anything about whether I'd want what would result from those features meeting reality.

edit:  Though on second read I guess you're just commenting on how entirely useless those sort of posts are.

Modifié par Wulfram, 22 janvier 2013 - 04:28 .

[Thomas Andresen]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

You wound me, sir.

But this thread is not about me and my personal preferences. I'm just trying to understand what posts should be avoided in the future to make the world here on the BSN a better place.

Not to sound overbearing, but recognising when you're talking about preferences and taste and opinions and assumptions, and that your assumptions might be wrong, isn't exactly rocket science.

Wulfram wrote...

I'd like every copy of the game to come with a gold statue of Leliana.

Solid gold, obviously.