333 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I don't disagree, but if fellow forumites start taking forum etiquette into their own hands, there will be war on our hands. 

We always get a toxic environment when someone opens with "here is why DA2 is crap and how you're a bad person for liking it."

But under USFEO of 2013, this wouldn't be inherently a bad post. It doesn't assume any knowledge of game design by the poster, it just is insulting those who liked DA2. Which, while not a violation of USFEO (2013), I believe that is a violation of the forum guidelines. In which case, report the post and have the thread locked. 

[addiction21]

eroeru wrote...


Yeah, even I have come to agree that the time is long past for that kind of toxicity.

There was never a time for it.

[In Exile]

Emzamination wrote...
That's not toxicity, that's passionate love. /no sarcasm

Oh God, are the devs getting love in our games again? Where's my bleach... 

[Dhiro]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I don't disagree, but if fellow forumites start taking forum etiquette into their own hands, there will be war on our hands. 

We always get a toxic environment when someone opens with "here is why DA2 is crap and how you're a bad person for liking it."

But under USFEO of 2013, this wouldn't be inherently a bad post. It doesn't assume any knowledge of game design by the poster, it just is insulting those who liked DA2. Which, while not a violation of USFEO (2013), I believe that is a violation of the forum guidelines. In which case, report the post and have the thread locked. 

It makes me sad that people feel the need to create such thread in the first place. It hurts me right in my <3.

[John Epler]

Easy rule to make sure devs read your post? Don't be an ass.

Read your post. Ask yourself 'if this were directed at me, how would I feel?' You can be as critical as you like but as soon as you drag in insults, attacks and attempts to tell us how much better you'd be able to do our job and why we're terrible people for X reason, we're going to be skimming past that post pretty quickly.

If someone tells me 'I really didn't like DA2, and here are the reasons' without vitriol or taking little potshots at us, I'm going to read that post. If someone says 'I liked most of DA2, but I hated X, and X was just an example of you guys being lazy - I could've done it better' then I'm probably going to glance at that post, sigh, and keep reading.

So, common courtesy. And if a dev tells you 'actually, it's because of X reason', I might avoid countering with 'stop lying you lying liar'. I mean, that's your prerogative, but as I assume that most people post on these forums because they want to be heard, avoiding that would aid in that goal.

[eroeru]

addiction21 wrote...

eroeru wrote...


Yeah, even I have come to agree that the time is long past for that kind of toxicity.

There was never a time for it.

Well, if people need to vent about a game they just paid full price for, I'd happily think it's justifiable.

[upsettingshorts]

Geology over, yay!

Fast Jimmy wrote...

But under USFEO of 2013, this wouldn't be inherently a bad post. It doesn't assume any knowledge of game design by the poster, it just is insulting those who liked DA2. Which, while not a violation of USFEO (2013), I believe that is a violation of the forum guidelines. In which case, report the post and have the thread locked. 

I've ranted about that particular habit before, it's in a previous edition USFEO that this post is revising and adding to, not replacing.  I believe it was part of the ongoing mission to put an end to the Great Fanboy*/Hater War of 2011-12. Though I've violated it plenty of times since myself.  

The entire forum basically exists to flaunt the ineffectiveness and futility of the so-called USFEO, really. 

*They censored the Bio____ term for fanboy I originally had here.  This was probably a more effective way to end the war.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 06:40 .

[Dhiro]

eroeru wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

eroeru wrote...


Yeah, even I have come to agree that the time is long past for that kind of toxicity.

There was never a time for it.

Well, if people need to vent about a game they just paid full price for, I'd happily think it's justifiable.

Not when you feel the need to insult people, I think.

[eroeru]

Yeah, though between what can be thought of as insulting, and what simply as (justified) venting is a thin line I'd think.

Modifié par eroeru, 22 janvier 2013 - 06:46 .

[Solmanian]

I'm a long time bioware fan, even been a loyalist in the latest "endwar", and I disagree completely with OP. Bioware success is due to the fact that unlike most major game developers they keep their "ears to the ground" and try to include their fans requests in their games.
Fans should make suggestions and express their wishes, even the unfeasible ones (preferably in a constructive fashion); as long as they understand that bioware isn't compelled in any way to follow through with them. We can't expect them to make the games we want, if we don't tell them what we want.
Hopes and aspirations don't have to be realistic.

Since ME1 I have been calymouring for the addition of playable space combat to the ME games. So far it didn't happen. I acknowledge that adding an extra genre of gameplay (in this case 3rd person shooter plus space simulator) will require resources almost comparable to making another completely different game. I think it would be worth it. Bioware probably thinks those resources are better spent elsewhere, and I respect their decision even if I'm unhappy with.

Is my request unrealistic? maybe. Am I going to hold my fingers crossed, and campaign for the inclusion of space combat in ME4? absulotely.

[Ladybright]

Most major game developers do keep their 'ears to the ground.' This thread isn't about banning all requests and suggestions, it's about making more constructive dialogue by not participating armchair game development. Suggestions and requests like you mention are not targeted by the original post at all, and are actually encouraged later in the thread.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

I am unsure of what that says about Pseudocognition and hoorayforicecream, but that's what I think.

Masochism.

Also I (we?) have friends here and enjoy some posters.

[In Exile]

eroeru wrote...
Well, if people need to vent about a game they just paid full price for, I'd happily think it's justifiable.

People should always feel free to voice their complaints. But not when it crosses the line into putting down others. 

[upsettingshorts]

Solmanian wrote...

I'm a long time bioware fan, even been a loyalist in the latest "endwar", and I disagree completely with OP. Bioware success is due to the fact that unlike most major game developers they keep their "ears to the ground" and try to include their fans requests in their games.

Again I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about our preferences.  Nor am I saying we shouldn't have pie in the sky ideas.  What we shouldn't do is wrap those preferences, criticisms, or suggestions in a layer of presumption (or, as others have raised, hostility).

Ladybright wrote...

Most major game developers do keep their 'ears to the ground.' This thread isn't about banning all requests and suggestions, it's about making more constructive dialogue by not participating armchair game development. Suggestions and requests like you mention are not targeted by the original post at all, and are actually encouraged later in the thread.

Yep, well put.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 22 janvier 2013 - 07:09 .

[eroeru]

Ladybright wrote...

Most major game developers do keep their 'ears to the ground.' This thread isn't about banning all requests and suggestions, it's about making more constructive dialogue by not participating armchair game development. Suggestions and requests like you mention are not targeted by the original post at all, and are actually encouraged later in the thread.

I'm still confused as to what is the difference between armchair game development and ok-suggestions.

[Fast Jimmy]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I've ranted about that particular habit before, it's in a previous edition USFEO that this post is revising and adding to, not replacing.  I believe it was part of the ongoing mission to put an end to the Great Fanboy*/Hater War of 2011-12. Though I've violated it plenty of times since myself.  

The entire forum basically exists to flaunt the ineffectiveness and futility of the so-called USFEO, really. 

*They censored the Bio____ term for fanboy I originally had here.  This was probably a more effective way to end the war.

I'm now really looking forward to using the term USFEO of 2013 in other threads. 

This is fun. I'm glad we're all having fun. Or, well, at least I'M having fun 

[Sir JK]

I pretty much agree with this endeavour (and also feel like I'm sort of guilty of this and feeling slightly ashamed of that realisation). I'll simply strive to just voicing my opinion and preferances on things instead of trying to "solve" my problem,

[Dragoonlordz]

I consider my only role in feedback is letting Bioware know what about their games I enjoy and what I do not, things I hope they can improve and things either I have seen them do in past I liked so believe could do it again or seen things in other games that if had been applied at some level I "might" enjoy their next game more. I cannot limit what I want based on how much resources they have because I do not know what resources they will have for the next game. So I do not concern myself with that and just mention the things that I think might enjoy their games more if had present even if not at same level as others have used, I do not desire to hold it against them when something I want is not done, sometimes I might get what I want if they agree with it and sometimes I might not but thats life and hardly end of world.

What annoys me is the people who come in and tell others it's not possible because they think they know how to make the game and how much resources it takes, the example of this is people who come into a thread and say"it's not required, it's a waste of resources, you shouldn't be asking for such because they can't afford to spend resources on it". I have fallen into that trap too in past but only when someone pulls the "optional so they should do it" card. Even then I keep it a matter of everyone should say what they want and they may do what I want or may do what someone else wants but they will never do what everyone wants which is why I often disagree with anyone saying because it's optional they should do it. It's not that simple, optional does not equal should happen it remains the case of each person list what they would like but realise not everyones suggestions will be done. By all means list what you want but do not expect them to do it just because your excuse is it would be optional.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 22 janvier 2013 - 08:15 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

This is why I generally limit my requests to features BioWare has included previously. I know they can code hotbuttons to require keys used in combination, because they've done it before. I know they can use grid inventories, because they've done it before.

Well, technically, it can be employees that are no longer with the firm. 

Which would be relevant if that knowledge was somehow non-transferrable, or those skills were unique to those developers.

My point is that the previous use of those features demostrated conclusively there is not an insurmountable technical barrier preventing the use of those features.  So it's not that they can't be included, but that BioWare has chosen to exclude them for some other reason.

I think that's an important distinction.

[hoorayforicecream]

eroeru wrote...

Ladybright wrote...

Most major game developers do keep their 'ears to the ground.' This thread isn't about banning all requests and suggestions, it's about making more constructive dialogue by not participating armchair game development. Suggestions and requests like you mention are not targeted by the original post at all, and are actually encouraged later in the thread.

I'm still confused as to what is the difference between armchair game development and ok-suggestions.

Just tell them what you liked and didn't like. If there is something from another game you liked better, mention that and why you liked it better.

[mesmerizedish]

I am actually very interested in seeing how a BioWare-designed armchair would feel.

[eroeru]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

eroeru wrote...

Ladybright wrote...

Most major game developers do keep their 'ears to the ground.' This thread isn't about banning all requests and suggestions, it's about making more constructive dialogue by not participating armchair game development. Suggestions and requests like you mention are not targeted by the original post at all, and are actually encouraged later in the thread.

I'm still confused as to what is the difference between armchair game development and ok-suggestions.

Just tell them what you liked and didn't like. If there is something from another game you liked better, mention that and why you liked it better.

Now bring out a discussion that doesn't follow these rules.

If we take the "there are more dialogue-answers in Origins" discussion that was thought as an example by Ups', then I can easily imagine a guy saying "I liked how Origins had more dialogue options", "I disliked how DA2 had less".

Now the responses will claim it to be otherwise. Which very rightly lieads us to arguing about what was actually the case with the game. This is all good in my opinion. Yet your answer (and this topic) seems to draw a line that after stating something you *cannot* by the love of CHrist elaborate on it, nor argue for and against.

Also, what's wrong with sharing new ideas?

Modifié par eroeru, 22 janvier 2013 - 08:31 .

[mousestalker]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I am actually very interested in seeing how a BioWare-designed armchair would feel.

Probably much like the Sharper Image massage chairs but with a random groping feature.  <_<

[hoorayforicecream]

eroeru wrote...

Now bring out a discussion that doesn't follow these rules.

Look at any discussion involving multiplayer or a voiced protagonist.

[Fast Jimmy]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

I am actually very interested in seeing how a BioWare-designed armchair would feel.

It would need to be romance-capable.

EDIT: Ninja'd by mouse!

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 22 janvier 2013 - 08:42 .