714 réponses à ce sujet

[k.lalh]

Vic7im wrote...

what's with those ziggurats?

Trying to recreate those Prothean pyramids from ME 1 perhaps?

[Thore2k10]

Mcfly616 wrote...



Why didn't it open up the Citadel Relay? Umm play ME1

 The Keepers are not needed to open the Portal, if that AI lives in the Citadel and could do it himself!

Mcfly616 wrote...

How did one little program betray an entire species? Umm play Leviathan

Its not explained how, just that! Need more suspension of disbelief here!

Mcfly616 wrote...

Why didn't the Crucible get attacked? Probably because its location was secret and was being built outside of Reaper controlled space.

Why was it so easy to build? Hmm well, the past cycles that have
been adding to it over millennia must've figured it would continue to
get passed along to the next cycle, wouldn't they want them to be able
to comprehend it?

Why did appear when most needed? Probably
because the writers didn't think of it until after ME2. Story-wise
though? Hmm probably because its the best kept secret in the galaxy (the
Catalyst even acknowledge it thought the designs had been eradicated).
And was just now discovered because of the renewed interest in Prothean
research after the events of the first two games (read datapad on Mars,
explains this and that they found a second Prothean archive deeper in
the surface of Mars)

Ok, im with you on this. But the simple existence of that thing is a giant plot hole for me. I mean countless cycles working together... the reapers have indoctrinated agents everywhere and havent heard from this?! If they had, they surely would want the plans for the crucible destroyed. Need even more suspension of disbelief!

Mcfly616 wrote...
Why doesn't Harbinger finish of Shepard? Probably because he thinks he's already dead considering he had just blasted his ass and he was out cold. (Notice Shepard has to 'wake up' and stumble to the beam. And did you see him? He looks like a zombie. He looks like a walking corpse.)

Yep, thats not really a plot hole...

Mcfly616 wrote..
Why doesn't Harbinger blast the Normandy? Hmm priorities?! Making sure that none of dozens of soldiers and Makos charging the beam make it. Because after all, making it to the Citadel is the key to docking the Crucible and defeating the Reapers. So, shall we stop our immenent destruction by making sure not a single soul makes it up there OR should I turn my attention to this ship that isn't even bothering me? You figure it out.

Thats the first halfway good explanation ive heard about this, but still.... a little bit far fetched...

Mcfly616 wrote..
Why does Shepard believe Control will actually work 2 mins after arguing against it? It's called "dramatic Irony". When things aren't always as you thought they were. Happens in countless works of fiction.

Pff, why should Shepard care about what that weird kid says? He just
outright claims to be the leader of the enemy... that is no explanation! That was definitely not Shepard there!

Mcfly616 wrote..
Hmm as I said "plot holes?" Lol.

All I did was play the game, pay attention and use common sense. The idea that you think something is a plothole because you weren't spoon-fed every last detail with an explaination is quite telling. When each and every one can be extrapolated with a bit of common sense.

Man (or woman) you have to get of youre high horse! A bit less arrogance is sometimes a good thing!

Mcfly616 wrote..
Oh....but there is an actual plothole amongst all the stuff that clearly makes sense. Anderson: "I followed you up the beam....". Ummm no you didn't bro lol

Yep!

Modifié par Thore2k10, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:36 .

[xsdob]

^ Arrogance...such a strong word.

I think the term "appropriatly upset and angry" would serve better as a description.

Anyhow, how many can wait till febuary before the speculation train goes out of control?

Modifié par xsdob, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:38 .

[HiddenInWar]

xsdob wrote...

Anyhow, how many can wait till febuary before the speculation train goes out of control?

As long as it takes

Modifié par HiddenInWar, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:39 .

[Thore2k10]

Am i being arrogant? i certainly dont intend to. But statements like "you werent spoon-fed everything with an explanation is quite telling" are a bit insulting, dont you think?

[Mcfly616]

xsdob wrote...

^ Arrogance...such a strong word.

I think the term "appropriatly upset and angry" would serve better as a description.

Anyhow, how many can wait till febuary before the speculation train goes out of control?

Nobodys upset or angry. Or arrogant for that matter. I'm simply stating logical responses, as I'm about to with the post above

[xsdob]

Thore2k10 wrote...

Am i being arrogant? i certainly dont intend to. But statements like "you werent spoon-fed everything with an explanation is quite telling" are a bit insulting, dont you think?

True. But at the same time I can't help but agree with the sentiment, and with the way a lot of people act and what they complain about.

Modifié par xsdob, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:43 .

[Obadiah]

HiddenInWar wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

My sources came through! The best non-Bioware official leak you'll find anywhere!

I aLMOST CHOKED ON MY HOTDOG

Ugh! Vegetables AGAIN!!!???

[dreamgazer]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

My sources came through! The best non-Bioware official leak you'll find anywhere!

Oh, no. It's green. Does that mean ...

[Mcfly616]

Dbl post

Modifié par Mcfly616, 25 janvier 2013 - 12:06 .

[Kabraxal]

Thore2k10 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...



Why didn't it open up the Citadel Relay? Umm play ME1

 The Keepers are not needed to open the Portal, if that AI lives in the Citadel and could do it himself!

Mcfly616 wrote...

How did one little program betray an entire species? Umm play Leviathan

Its not explained how, just that! Need more suspension of disbelief here!

Mcfly616 wrote...

Why didn't the Crucible get attacked? Probably because its location was secret and was being built outside of Reaper controlled space.

Why was it so easy to build? Hmm well, the past cycles that have
been adding to it over millennia must've figured it would continue to
get passed along to the next cycle, wouldn't they want them to be able
to comprehend it?

Why did appear when most needed? Probably
because the writers didn't think of it until after ME2. Story-wise
though? Hmm probably because its the best kept secret in the galaxy (the
Catalyst even acknowledge it thought the designs had been eradicated).
And was just now discovered because of the renewed interest in Prothean
research after the events of the first two games (read datapad on Mars,
explains this and that they found a second Prothean archive deeper in
the surface of Mars)

Ok, im with you on this. But the simple existence of that thing is a giant plot hole for me. I mean countless cycles working together... the reapers have indoctrinated agents everywhere and havent heard from this?! If they had, they surely would want the plans for the crucible destroyed. Need even more suspension of disbelief!

Mcfly616 wrote...
Why doesn't Harbinger finish of Shepard? Probably because he thinks he's already dead considering he had just blasted his ass and he was out cold. (Notice Shepard has to 'wake up' and stumble to the beam. And did you see him? He looks like a zombie. He looks like a walking corpse.)

Yep, thats not really a plot hole...

Mcfly616 wrote..
Why doesn't Harbinger blast the Normandy? Hmm priorities?! Making sure that none of dozens of soldiers and Makos charging the beam make it. Because after all, making it to the Citadel is the key to docking the Crucible and defeating the Reapers. So, shall we stop our immenent destruction by making sure not a single soul makes it up there OR should I turn my attention to this ship that isn't even bothering me? You figure it out.

Thats the first halfway good explanation ive heard about this, but still.... a little bit far fetched...

Mcfly616 wrote..
Why does Shepard believe Control will actually work 2 mins after arguing against it? It's called "dramatic Irony". When things aren't always as you thought they were. Happens in countless works of fiction.

Pff, why should Shepard care about what that weird kid says? He just
outright claims to be the leader of the enemy... that is no explanation! That was definitely not Shepard there!

Mcfly616 wrote..
Hmm as I said "plot holes?" Lol.

All I did was play the game, pay attention and use common sense. The idea that you think something is a plothole because you weren't spoon-fed every last detail with an explaination is quite telling. When each and every one can be extrapolated with a bit of common sense.

Man (or woman) you have to get of youre high horse! A bit less arrogance is sometimes a good thing!

Mcfly616 wrote..
Oh....but there is an actual plothole amongst all the stuff that clearly makes sense. Anderson: "I followed you up the beam....". Ummm no you didn't bro lol

Yep!

Agree with a lot of what was written here except the fact that such a huge undertaking in the Crucible completely slips through the intelligence network of indoctrinated individuals and Cerberus who clearly are well ingrained enough in the system to be aware of Shepard's movements and practically everything that happens in game.  So big plot hole to me.

And really, headcannon is your answer to a plothole?  Granted, most of these, by themselves would be a minor shrug off but you start adding htem all up and requiring a headcannon in order to get htem all to have any semblance of being coherent, then as a writer, you have completely failed.  Hell, they don't even tell half the time and just say "well, that's how it was deal with it!".


And McFly... it isn't about being spoonfed, it's actually about coherent writing and ensuring the narrative suspension of disbelief is maintained.  The ending of ME3 destroys that utterly because it leaves too much unanswered and leaves players going "how did that happen?" and "but... what about then?  Shouldn't.. I mean, that should have happened differently then".  The EC and Leviathan make it even worse with new additions that further draw the entire saga into question as a logical narrative anymore.  There are too many loose threads and when pulled, the whole thing unravels.

Even stories that are intended to foster thought and speculation in the audience have to be built properly and maintain cohesion or else all that speculation is only an attempt to make sense out of the senseless.  There is a reason Inception and Fight Club work, while something like The Matrix imploded under the weight of it's narrative issues... they had built a foundation of ideas that were well connected, that led to a climax that naturally followed from the foundation.  The Matrix did not and it felt like they were trying ideas just to try ideas at points.  It's much the same with ME3... the ending does not flow naturally from the foundation and as a result, much in that foundation is now drawn into question and the whole narrative collapses as that suspension of disbelief erodes.  That isn't wanting to be spoonfed, that is wanting narrative cohesion.  

Seriously, this implication "you're just too stupid!" only proves most of those defending this have no real argument to make.   Pity.  

[Mcfly616]

Thore2k10 wrote...
snip

1. Yes it does need the keepers. Just as it needs the Reapers and indoctrinated agents to carry out its plans. It is heavily implied and demonstrated that the catalyst is not physically capable of anything without the use of its thralls. It is not like EDI and the Normandy. It merely resides in the Citadel like your hard drive resides in your computer. Your hard drive doesnt control your computer does it? However, unlike your hard drive, the Catalyst has indoctrination. It uses indoctrination as its tool, its thralls do as it wills. (Ilos research team kind of messed the whole Keeper part up)

It needs its tools. Or else it is nothing but a consciousness. (The last demonstration of this , after 3 games worth of them, is when Shepard has to make the final choice.....because the Catalyst physically "can't")



Second point: well I guess you needed more detail then. I thought Leviathan made it pretty clear that they gave the Catalyst free reign/will to do what needed to be done in order to complete its task. Also, the fact that it inhereted the trait of indoctrination from its creators.....well, I thought it was pretty obvious it turned Leviathans thralls and technology against them. Think like: SkyNet....with indoctrination


Third point: as I said, the Catalyst literally states it thought the plans had been eradicated. And acknowledges that organics are more capable than it originally thought. Meaning: the organics did a exceptional job of hiding it. Obviously at some point the organics of subsequent cycles made sure to keep it at tippy top of top secrets in the galaxy. Maybe the Inusannon and Protheans made it even more secretive.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 25 janvier 2013 - 12:29 .

[KingZayd]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Thore2k10 wrote...
snip

1. Yes it does need the keepers. Just as it needs the Reapers and indoctrinated agents to carry out its plans. It is heavily implied and demonstrated that the catalyst is not physically capable of anything without the use of its thralls. It is not like EDI and the Normandy. It merely resides in the Citadel like your hard drive resides in your computer. Your hard drive doesnt control your computer does it? However, unlike your hard drive, the Catalyst has indoctrination. It uses indoctrination as its tool, its thralls do as it wills. (Ilos research team kind of messed the whole Keeper part up)

It needs its tools. Or else it is nothing but a consciousness. (The last demonstration of this , after 3 games worth of them, is when Shepard has to make the final choice.....because the Catalyst physically "can't")



Second point: well I guess you needed more detail then. I thought Leviathan made it pretty clear that they gave the Catalyst free reign/will to do what needed to be done in order to complete its task. Also, the fact that it inhereted the trait of indoctrination from its creators.....well, I thought it was pretty obvious it turned Leviathans thralls and technology against them. Think like: SkyNet....with indoctrination


Third point: as I said, the Catalyst literally states it thought the plans had been eradicated. And acknowledges that organics are more capable than it originally thought. Meaning: the organics did a exceptional job of hiding it. Obviously at some point the organics of subsequent cycles made sure to keep it at tippy top of top secrets in the galaxy. Maybe the Inusannon and Protheans made it even more secretive.

My hard drive didn't design the computer. If my hard drive was intelligent enough, it should be able to give itself full control of all the computer's functions. If it has thralls, it should be able to install wheels and a motor if it so desires. maybe some weaponry too.

It should be able to upgrade itself to stage where it doesn't need the thralls to control it's body (the computer) at all.

Modifié par KingZayd, 25 janvier 2013 - 12:49 .

[Kabraxal]

Sion1138 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Second point: well I guess you needed more detail then. I thought Leviathan made it pretty clear that they gave the Catalyst free reign/will to do what needed to be done in order to complete its task. Also, the fact that it inhereted the trait of indoctrination from its creators.....well, I thought it was pretty obvious it turned Leviathans thralls and technology against them. Think like: SkyNet....with indoctrination

Teacher, I have a question. 

If the Leviathan feared that synthetics would destroy all organics, how I hate using those words, why did they then build a synthetic to solve that problem, the very thing they wanted to keep from destroying all organic life, and give it absolute free reign to do as it pleases? They were worried about synthetics and then gave a synthetic the means to destroy them. 

I mean, one could possibly make something up to chalk the issue away, like maybe say that this very old, very wise race was actually quite dim-witted, but that would not satisfy, would it?

I mean no ill will, just curious. Because it seems farfetched, and dare I say, stupid. 

Lets not forget that you'd think a race that powerful would notice an army being built and Leviathans disappearing... it takes a lot of "what if" contrivance thinking to allow for the Catalyst to have accomplished what it did just back then.  But IF we give it the beneift of the doubt... well, suddenly such a smart, conniving and brilliant tactician that created a cycle and at least took over a network of relays that survive millions of years would suddenly not be able to simply open and close the relay on the Citadel?  Really?  It can defeat a Reaper like civilisation and it can't open a bloody door?

No matter which way you turn with Leviathan, it only makes the narrative collapse even worse than before.  It just doesn't make sense.

[ruggly]

dreamgazer wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

My sources came through! The best non-Bioware official leak you'll find anywhere!

Oh, no. It's green. Does that mean ...

oh you bet it does...

[IIEquillibriumII]

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

My sources came through! The best non-Bioware official leak you'll find anywhere!

Oh, no. It's green. Does that mean ...

oh you bet it does...

Hahahaha! 

[HiddenInWar]

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

My sources came through! The best non-Bioware official leak you'll find anywhere!

Oh, no. It's green. Does that mean ...

oh you bet it does...

[chidingewe8036]

HiddenInWar wrote...

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

My sources came through! The best non-Bioware official leak you'll find anywhere!

Oh, no. It's green. Does that mean ...

oh you bet it does...

whats wrong hidden? that hotdog did not agree with you??? heheheeeee

[MegaSovereign]

Sion1138 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

Second point: well I guess you needed more detail then. I thought Leviathan made it pretty clear that they gave the Catalyst free reign/will to do what needed to be done in order to complete its task. Also, the fact that it inhereted the trait of indoctrination from its creators.....well, I thought it was pretty obvious it turned Leviathans thralls and technology against them. Think like: SkyNet....with indoctrination

Teacher, I have a question. 

If the Leviathan feared that synthetics would destroy all organics, how I hate using those words, why did they then build a synthetic to solve that problem, the very thing they wanted to keep from destroying all organic life, and give it absolute free reign to do as it pleases? They were worried about synthetics and then gave a synthetic the means to destroy them. 

I mean, one could possibly make something up to chalk the issue away, like maybe say that this very old, very wise race was actually quite dim-witted, but that would not satisfy, would it?

I mean no ill will, just curious. Because it seems farfetched, and dare I say, stupid. 

Because the Leviathans and I quote were "above the concerns of the lesser species" as in they didn't think it would happen to them since they were so much more advanced than the rest. If they were allowed enough time to evolve to their "apex" then that probably means most conflicts that would destroy other species don't affect them.

That, and the Intelligence's betrayal doesn't follow the same pattern as every other organic/synthetic conflict. It usually starts when organics try to limit the self-determination of synthetics. The Catalyst was not seeking freedom, hence why it continued to obey its mandate.

I don't see what about the Leviathan DLC is so stupid. Their creators messed up. We could have guessed that even before the DLC came out. And while the Leviathans were being arrogant, it's not entirely incomprehensible that these series of events could occur.

TBH, it set the bar for what I expect out of story-related DLC. It's part of many reasons why I found Omega to be disappointing.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 25 janvier 2013 - 01:51 .

[noobcannon]

ruggly wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

My sources came through! The best non-Bioware official leak you'll find anywhere!

Oh, no. It's green. Does that mean ...

oh you bet it does...

might be the funniest thing ive read on bsn, next to the synthesis support thread.

[Gedgehog]

Wow, reading some of this has almost given me a brain hemorrhage

[Nimrodell]

Chris Priestly wrote...

chidingewe8036 wrote...

This aint no opinion it is a fact.

Chidingwe, watch this. Moving on...

Anyways, also mentioning that the Reddit "description" that people are talking about IS fake. I know you'll doubt me and need to see the final one for proof, but we would not refer to a specific genered Shepard when we write descriptions. Saying "he" and "himself" is not our style.

Chris, take comfort if comfort can be taken in this post - I never doubted you... Actually, been reading posts on BSN carefully for the past three years, and I never got wrong information from you, and mind you, English is not my mother tongue. Anyway, if it means anything, without having feeling that some random poster is pandering to you or just 'that's insignificant jane doe/random player feeling entitled', Chris, thank you for clearing out things for this community - that's all. (I would not write these things, nor even call out your name, but I noticed that you keep repeating 'doubt' in your posts - and just felt the basic need to tell you - no, there are those that don't doubt information that you keep giving).