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BioWare let's talk about...Microtransactions!


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#526
LinksOcarina

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I'd say the ending where the character you spent the last three games playing and acting through survives (even if it is ambiguous what that survival means) should not be surprising that people see as the best ending. It is also the ending that is not obtainable without the Extended Cut, multiplayer or a smartphone app.


Correct.

But was that intended to be the best ending is now the question?

By design, you were able to get everything else but that one scene, which was mostly a treat/reward for doing multiplayer. And considering how the endings were set up, it seems clear that Synthesis was intended to be seen as the "best" option because it was only available with the high EMS score, and really hard to get without playing multiplayer.

So I would argue that the best ending is available without multiplayer, and that saying EA or BioWare locked it out is a matter of subjective opinion over fact. And because of that, it has no place in this discussion.

#527
AlanC9

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Given that devs have said the design intent was to not have a best ending per se - the whole point is to give the player a difficult choice - this might not be a productive discussion.

#528
Fast Jimmy

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LinksOcarina wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I'd say the ending where the character you spent the last three games playing and acting through survives (even if it is ambiguous what that survival means) should not be surprising that people see as the best ending. It is also the ending that is not obtainable without the Extended Cut, multiplayer or a smartphone app.


Correct.

But was that intended to be the best ending is now the question?

By design, you were able to get everything else but that one scene, which was mostly a treat/reward for doing multiplayer. And considering how the endings were set up, it seems clear that Synthesis was intended to be seen as the "best" option because it was only available with the high EMS score, and really hard to get without playing multiplayer.

So I would argue that the best ending is available without multiplayer, and that saying EA or BioWare locked it out is a matter of subjective opinion over fact. And because of that, it has no place in this discussion.


I was not the one who put the label of "best" ending on there, because it is subjective.

But ANY story content or ending that is tied to if you play multiplayer is a bad thing. Although that's getting quite off topic. Playing MP and said MP having microtransactions are two totally separate conversations.

#529
LinksOcarina

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

I'd say the ending where the character you spent the last three games playing and acting through survives (even if it is ambiguous what that survival means) should not be surprising that people see as the best ending. It is also the ending that is not obtainable without the Extended Cut, multiplayer or a smartphone app.


Correct.

But was that intended to be the best ending is now the question?

By design, you were able to get everything else but that one scene, which was mostly a treat/reward for doing multiplayer. And considering how the endings were set up, it seems clear that Synthesis was intended to be seen as the "best" option because it was only available with the high EMS score, and really hard to get without playing multiplayer.

So I would argue that the best ending is available without multiplayer, and that saying EA or BioWare locked it out is a matter of subjective opinion over fact. And because of that, it has no place in this discussion.


I was not the one who put the label of "best" ending on there, because it is subjective.

But ANY story content or ending that is tied to if you play multiplayer is a bad thing. Although that's getting quite off topic. Playing MP and said MP having microtransactions are two totally separate conversations.


I know.

you were the only one to answer though, I had to point that out so people can realize how subjective it is. 

Although it being a bad thing is another disucssion for another day....

#530
alhamel94

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i say let Shepard die, his/her story is over, i want the universe expanded imo.

#531
Gatt9

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AlanC9 wrote...

Given that devs have said the design intent was to not have a best ending per se - the whole point is to give the player a difficult choice - this might not be a productive discussion.


Still a false claim.  They're the ones who designed a system where higher points mean better results,  and the highest point-rated result wasn't obtainable without multiplayer,  despite all of their claims before release.  You only get the worst ending with the lowest points,  so conversely...

#532
AlanC9

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Gatt9 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Given that devs have said the design intent was to not have a best ending per se - the whole point is to give the player a difficult choice - this might not be a productive discussion.


Still a false claim.  They're the ones who designed a system where higher points mean better results,  and the highest point-rated result wasn't obtainable without multiplayer,  despite all of their claims before release.  You only get the worst ending with the lowest points,  so conversely...


I was only talking about the design intent... not whether the game realized that intent well.

#533
In Exile

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Gatt9 wrote...
Still a false claim.  They're the ones who designed a system where higher points mean better results,  and the highest point-rated result wasn't obtainable without multiplayer,  despite all of their claims before release.  You only get the worst ending with the lowest points,  so conversely...


Only if you think red explosion is a good ending. If you prefer blue explosion, then it's not true. 

The problem was that 2/3 endings suffered from being nonsensical. If the easter egg cutscene applied after the green explosion ending, then you'd be hard pressed to make this argument.

#534
Allan Schumacher

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(Note, I use the "Royal You" here).

$7 is over 10% the sticker price of the original game. Yet we are not given over 10% of the actual content. Arguably, in a 40+ hour game with dozens upon dozens of mpas, this DLC brought an objective worth of less than a few dollars.

But the DLC sold tens of thousands of copies. Many, many people made the decision that, despite the objective smaller value this brings, I will pay it. And many enjoyed it. Many also expected that this character, a character they had paid premium money for, would be integrated into future installments. When she was not (hardly touched on at all in ME3, like most ME2 companions), many felt that they were misled in their original purchase, that Bioware shouldn't have introduced a character that people paid money for if they weren't planning on giving her the same level of treatment other characters who were in the base game. They felt deceived and that they had bought an implied understanding of how the content they were buying would be integrated into the main game and the main series.

These people have a legitimate complaint that Bioware acted unethically.


Sorry, I'm going to have to adamantly disagree. Especially since we're discussing a luxury game good, of not particularly high value ($7).

Here is where you, the consumer, are now able to make an informed decision: If you did not feel that you are getting full value for your dollar, feel free to wait and purchase it at a dollar point that you feel IS worth your dollar.  Which may mean you just don't buy the product.

If you think we're being unethical, exercise your right as a consumer and don't reward us for out lack of ethics. You didn't get full "value" for your $7, so don't give us $7 in the future.

If you think that the lack of refunds in gaming (as a PC gamer for decades, I haven't been able to return opened PC games for pretty much the entirety of my actually being able to buy games) is unethical, then exercise your consumer right and don't purchase video games.

It's not like we're being nefarious here. You're not stupid, and you can clearly see "Huh, I can't get my money back for this" so it's not like you're being blindsided by something that has caught you by surprise. For a luxury good that is completely unnecessary for you to both live life, and live it comfortably.


At this point, what you're effectively doing by continuing to buy the products is saying "I'm okay still paying this price [since I just did], but I'd really like it cheaper still."  Which is kind of a statement of the obvious. Games are a luxury good, not a necessity, and a relatively inexpensive one at that. It's not like we're slapping down thousands of dollars on an automobile or housing that is essential for our lives or anything like that. (As an aside, banks didn't act unethically by handing out tons of 0% down payment mortgages. They acted irresponsibly. And that's an important distinction. There's plenty of other ways that banks behave unethically, but that's not one of them)


So, as a gamer, here's what you do. If you think we're being unethical: don't buy our games. Yes, this means you won't get to play a game that you probably really want to play. But if you continuously go out and buy a luxury good that you don't feel is worth the money, the only person you can effectively blame is yourself. Change and adapt. Only buy games when they are much cheaper (there's nothing forcing you, aside from your own desires, to play the game at release). If you don't think DLCs are worth it, don't buy them. Yes, this means that you won't get to play content that you may *want* to play, but if you feel that the entire DLC practice is unethical, you owe it to yourself to not buy it. You're compromising your own morals and convictions by doing so.


As a gamer, you aren't fully understanding the power that you have as a consumer. You go "$7 isn't worth Kasumi DLC. I should get more." Despite the fact that you're well within your right to NOT purchase the content, you *really* want to. You just don't want to pay $7 for it. But because you still do pay the $7 because you do want the content, you end up showing that despite your statements, you're actually okay with paying $7 for it. You just did, and you continue to do so. Same goes for our full games.

To everyone I ask: seriously, if the practice is that reprehensible, why do you buy the product? I personally do not buy DLCs for two reasons:

1) I have usually moved on past the game when they come out
2) I don't typically feel they are not worth the money

I have no problems with the DLC content, because if people do want it and do feel it's worth the money, and the DLC project itself is profitable, I don't see what is so bad about it. Vague statements like "We used to get full games" doesn't do much to help illuminate the issue. If you don't feel you are getting a full game at $50 or $60, and this is a common occurrence, then absolutely you should seriously consider waiting for the price of games to drop. I already do it (I'm waiting for Skyrim to be $15-$20 before I pick it up, because at that price point I have a reasonable assurance that it'll be worth my money). Heck, if you get into the routine of only buying games after their prices have dropped, you'll still get to a point where there's no shortage of games to play. You're just playing games some time after they are released (which can have additional benefits like patches and whatnot).


So I ask: if you dislike it so much, why do you keep purchasing it? If you think that games are otherwise incomplete without said content, why do you keep purchasing the games? Lastly, how do we reconcile this perspective with those that feel that value is just fine, and do feel that the games are still complete without DLCs?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 10 février 2013 - 12:42 .


#535
Cimeas

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That's my big problem with DLC.

Full game = $50 (on PC)
Contains ~50 hours of content (not to mention all the core game systems)

Content/Cost ratio = 1$/hour


DLC = $10
Contains ~4 hours of content

Content/Cost ratio = $2.50/hour


AS SOON AS DLC is actually priced FAIRLY in relation to the main game, I will be more than happy to purchase it.

Modifié par Cimeas, 10 février 2013 - 01:19 .


#536
CrazyRah

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This is kinda realisation that i've had over the last 12 months or so the power that i actually have as a consumer. That with my money i can reward good practice and punish practice that i feel isn't okey. That if a developer/publisher do something with a title that i don't like (insert reason) that i have the power to just not support that behavior. That i perhaps miss out on a titel isn't really the end of the world and nowdays there're plenty of other titles to choose from so i'm alright.

I like the idea of DLC and what they can do but i also feel that in most cases that DLC's are rather expensive considering what i get. Can always use Bioware as an example, LotSB is for me an example of DLC that where i feel it warrant the cost and it's for me a good purchase. Leviathan is a purchase where i still today don't know if my money was spent entierly well. Then we got Omega which didn't interest me that much to begin with and when the price tag was $15 i couldn't say the cost would ever be worth it so i decided to not buy it. I would absolutely love more content with my Shepard but i also do have a responsibility towards my own wallet. If the DLC (ever?) drop in price at some point i might pick it up just like i do with some titles that look interesting but the cost make me cautious. I really don't lose anything by waiting and what i can gain is better spent money.

#537
Allan Schumacher

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Cimeas wrote...

That's my big problem with DLC.

Full game = $50 (on PC)
Contains ~50 hours of content (not to mention all the core game systems)

Content/Cost ratio = 1$/hour


DLC = $10
Contains ~4 hours of content

Content/Cost ratio = $2.50/hour


AS SOON AS DLC is actually priced FAIRLY in relation to the main game, I will be more than happy to purchase it.


This is fine, and if that's your measure of value then absolutely go for it.

I don't personally use hours, and as such I'd rather pay $20 for Portal 2 and play it for 17 or so hours, than $50 on Skyrim and persumably play it for hundreds of hours. (since it's 17 hours of OMGBBQ).  But it's still me placing a level of expectation on value on what I'd get from Skyrim, and it hasn't reached an acceptable price for me yet.

For some, DLC is fine and they have no issues with it.

I do think that part of the problem that some people have is that with people that have no qualms with the DLC model, or even embrace it, those that don't like it will ultimately feel like they are left behind.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 10 février 2013 - 02:15 .


#538
Wulfram

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For me there's a few levels

1. "I'm not going to buy this because it's doesn't seem to represent value for money": Most DLC. All this does is make me not buy the DLC in question.  No problem.  Though I've sometimes found myself not buying games in stuff like Steam sales because I can't be bothered to work out which of the 20 DLC I should buy along with it.

2. "This seems like a fairly poor way to treat your customer": Day 1 DLC, Microtransactions. Trying to flog me extra stuff the day the game is released rubs me up the wrong way. It's not actually wrong, it's just like if a restaurant was pushy about trying to get me to buy dessert and charged extra for condiments. And it also seems to me to create incentives to do something other than make the best game possible - the designers now have an incentive to keep a juicy bit of the game back to sell seperately (Day 1 DLC) or to include boring stuff that people will pay to skip (microtransactions). So these things reduce my willingness to pay for the main product. I'm now fairly OK with Day 1 DLC because it gives me an excuse to wait for the price to come down rather than allowing my enthusiasm to cause me to pay 50% extra just to get the game a month or two earlier.

3. "This is unethical": Only really likely to apply to dishonesty. In this case it will affect my willingness to buy any of that company's products.

Modifié par Wulfram, 10 février 2013 - 02:43 .


#539
Darth Krytie

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I love in game DLC, but not so much "buy bullets" or wait another hour type microtransactions.

I've never had a problem with the price of most DLC. It's about the same as I'd pay for a ticket to the movie theatre, and most DLCs are about the length of a movie, with the added bonus of being able to replay it as often as I like...sometimes with different outcome, depending on choices.

I don't compare it in contrast to hours per dollar to the original game, because it doesn't even make sense to. I just think, if you're willing to pay five to ten bucks on going out to eat or watching a film, then a DLC for a game you like is sorta in the same field. Only it lasts longer.

#540
Josielyn

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I have to agree that money talks. I usually wait until I can watch You-tube videos of others playing the DLC before I decide to buy it. If it looks like something I would enjoy, then I buy it. I have not purchased all of the DLC available, for example, Sebastian, was a DLC I thought I had to have, but once I watched some videos, he was completely unappealing to me.

#541
AlanC9

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

I do think that part of the problem that some people have is that with people that have no qualms with the DLC model, or even embrace it, those that don't like it will ultimately feel like they are left behind.


Part of the problem here is that EA doesn't seem to want to do UEs anymore. I'm not quite sure why they don't. Surely there are a lot of players who won't buy DLCs at the current price point but would pick up, say, an ME2 UE for $20 or so? I would.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 février 2013 - 06:10 .


#542
AlanC9

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Cimeas wrote...
That's my big problem with DLC.

Full game = $50 (on PC)
Contains ~50 hours of content (not to mention all the core game systems)

Content/Cost ratio = 1$/hour
DLC = $10
Contains ~4 hours of content
Content/Cost ratio = $2.50/hour
AS SOON AS DLC is actually priced FAIRLY in relation to the main game, I will be more than happy to purchase it.


Since economies of scale work against this, you might be waiting a long time.

Also note that highly-profitable DLC can subsidize the main games -- sometimes called the razor and blades business model. I have no idea whether current DLC prices are high enough for this to work, though.

#543
LinksOcarina

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AlanC9 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I do think that part of the problem that some people have is that with people that have no qualms with the DLC model, or even embrace it, those that don't like it will ultimately feel like they are left behind.


Part of the problem here is that EA doesn't seem to want to do UEs anymore. I'm not quite sure why they don't. Surely there are a lot of players who won't buy DLCs at the current price point but would pick up, say, an ME2 UE for $20 or so? I would.


Now, didn't they just release the Mass Effect Trilogy on all platforms at full value with DLC attached?

I mean, how can we say they are not doing UE's anymore. If anything they constantly do it still. Hell, I am waiting for them to put Dragon Age on the Wii U as a collection of both games for like 30 bucks, with all DLC attached. That would be a cool deal. 

#544
jstme

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LinksOcarina wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I do think that part of the problem that some people have is that with people that have no qualms with the DLC model, or even embrace it, those that don't like it will ultimately feel like they are left behind.


Part of the problem here is that EA doesn't seem to want to do UEs anymore. I'm not quite sure why they don't. Surely there are a lot of players who won't buy DLCs at the current price point but would pick up, say, an ME2 UE for $20 or so? I would.


Now, didn't they just release the Mass Effect Trilogy on all platforms at full value with DLC attached?

I mean, how can we say they are not doing UE's anymore. If anything they constantly do it still. Hell, I am waiting for them to put Dragon Age on the Wii U as a collection of both games for like 30 bucks, with all DLC attached. That would be a cool deal. 

Since it IS EA,not all DLCs are attached to trilogy and what DLCs are attached, varies by platform.
http://masseffect.bi.../about/trilogy/
So - can you say they do UE after looking at this?

Modifié par jstme, 10 février 2013 - 09:17 .


#545
LinksOcarina

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Yeah. They spell it out for you what is available and what isn't. And the omissions given make sense per platform for the most part. 

May not be ultimate in the sense of including everything at once, but they need to stop making DLC for it anyway before that happens. I see no fault in this. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 10 février 2013 - 09:29 .


#546
zenrockoutkast

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EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Ghost1017 wrote...

John Epler wrote...

The original Dead Space had microtransactions - you could buy weapons that were, essentially, fully upgraded versions of your basic weapons, as well as of your rig suit.

Or is this something different? I'm not following this news too closely.


Weapon and Suit Packs in the original Dead Space, I do not consider microtransactions. Most of the weapons and armor in the DS1 DLC did not offer an advantage besides the tank pack.

EDIT: I'm talking about a system that is built around microtransactions like the ME3 MP Store which I am absolutely okay with but with DS3 which I am not. 

It doesn't matter what you personally consider microtransactions, that's what they are. The most important thing to remember is that it's optional. You don't have to buy any of this stuff.

This is one of the worst excuses out there.  If you can't make money on a game then find a way to cut costs.  Studios like EA keep funding these massive, expensive-to-produce titles like Dragon Age 2 that are essentially the equivalents of Hollywood blockbusters, but when they fail to produce they go around *****ing about development costs.  They complain and complain and complain that you can't make money unless you pour millions upon millions of dollars into a game, and all the while the games they're pouring all this money into are flopping.  That's not the fault of consumers, that's the fault of game developers.  The old business model is dying and they are not adapting, so they're blaming consumers for it.  Live by the sword die by the sword, if you're going to go on and on about market pressures then you should also admit that negative market pressure is an economic reality and supposed to serve as an impetus to producers to change something.  Come on, EA, work your market magic, create demand out of thin air like all good captains of industry do.  

In all seriousness, though, while companies like EA are trying to pass all the blame off on consumers for their blockbusters failing, smaller companies are making respectable profits on cheaper-to-produce games.  Side-scrollers with stick figure protagonists, simple turn-based RPGs, dungeon crawlers, etc.  Look at DAO and DA2, the former is FAR more popular than the latter despite being a step down in graphical complexity, in complexity of conversations, and in a lot of other technical ways.  It just goes to show that developers don't need to resort to microtransactions in order to sustain their otherwise unsustainable projects.  What they need to do is get rid of their "throw a ton of money at a popular IP" mindset and focusing on game quality over resources.

#547
AlanC9

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LinksOcarina wrote...

Yeah. They spell it out for you what is available and what isn't. And the omissions given make sense per platform for the most part. 

May not be ultimate in the sense of including everything at once, but they need to stop making DLC for it anyway before that happens. I see no fault in this. 


It's been over a year and a half since Arrival. How long is long enough for an ME2 UE?

#548
AlanC9

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zenrockoutkast wrote...
This is one of the worst excuses out there.  If you can't make money on a game then find a way to cut costs.


OK. Which costs would you cut?

#549
Allan Schumacher

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If you can't make money on a game then find a way to cut costs. Studios like EA keep funding these massive, expensive-to-produce titles like Dragon Age 2 that are essentially the equivalents of Hollywood blockbusters, but when they fail to produce they go around *****ing about development costs. They complain and complain and complain that you can't make money unless you pour millions upon millions of dollars into a game, and all the while the games they're pouring all this money into are flopping.


DA2 cost much less to make than DAO did, and turned a good profit to boot.

Are you suggesting we keep cutting costs like we did with DA2? Or are you (incorrectly) assuming that DA2 was a financial flop?

Furthermore, what about the people that like the armor packs and other vanity pieces?

#550
Allan Schumacher

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Part of the problem here is that EA doesn't seem to want to do UEs anymore. I'm not quite sure why they don't. Surely there are a lot of players who won't buy DLCs at the current price point but would pick up, say, an ME2 UE for $20 or so? I would.


Purely speculative on my part, but (especially given the reputation EA has as being moneygrubbing) I wouldn't be surprised if the financial viability of Ultimate Editions isn't really there. If it was, wouldn't EA go out and print the money?