611 réponses à ce sujet

[StElmo]

Itkovian wrote...

StElmo wrote...

I don't want microtransactions in the base game. I am happy for the origin store to have 99c DLC for cosmetic bits and peices if its just a bit of fan service.

But I don't want any in-game store, ergh that would be horrible.

See, personally I would prefer having some sort of in-character justification for why my character suddenly got some swag.

If we assure there HAS to be a microtransaction model (and I'm not sure tha'ts the case, we really don't know what will be done), personally I would rather have it make sense within the game. An actual shop in the game where you can browse items and obtain them in-character seems less incongruous to me than gear suddenly popping in my inventory, particularly if the developers actually make an effort to make the items beleivable (as a purely fictitious example, an Infused Lyrium Potion instead of a "Extra Bonus XP" item).

Obviously sooner or later there'll be a disconnect, once you hit the paywal (as it were), but if that paywall is handled at another level it shouldn't be so bad (for example, if you could only buy Bioware Points from the BSN or the main menu, it wouldn't be quite so clashing as having to open up a "payment options" window while actually playing)

Granted, regardless of how it could be implemented there will be people crying bloody murder at having their "immersion" ruined.

In ME3 you got an email and a delivery.

You think paypal opening up in DA3's window would be LESS immersion breaking?

Really?

[Itkovian]

Lazengan wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Over the years, I have gone from a gamer to a person whose prospective career lies in video games and whose friends are already members of the industry.  I will say this, many of the "money-grubbing" practices you despise are all techniques we use to ensure that we get paid and our families stay fed.  There are so many ways to cheat the developers out of the money they deserve such as buying used and borrowing from a friend.  As a gamer, I get it.  Games are expenisve and it's often tempting to find a cheaper way to get your hands on it, but when you do that, there's one more consumer who won't actually buy the game.  One more person whose money won't go towards the cost of making the game and paying the employees who spent countless hours on it.

oh this is cute

if that were true, every indie publisher would be dead and killed out with so many "pirates".

But that's a completely different league you're talking about here. Indie developers generally do not make big budget AAA titles. Their titles, while innovative and original, generally have a lower budget that allows them to survive and make a living with a smaller fan base.

And that's pretty awesome, certainly. Indie devs are great and their success stories are very inspirational.

But that's a far cry from mega-budget AAA titles, who absolutely rely on MASSIVE revenue to be able to support the MASSIVE costs incurred in making such games. At those levels, developers and publishers need to maximize their revenue to simply stay in the black. This is even worse when you consider that sometimes games flop and incurr massive losses, requiring the devs and publishers to make up that money from elsewhere, which usually means their successful franchises.

AAA game development is big business, and very risky (just look how often publishers actually turn a profit). They absolutely should be exploring all sources of revenue.

Note that I'm not saying AAA games are inherently better, but it is a totally different environment than the indie scene, with different priorities and requirements. What works for one might not be sustainable for the other.

What really matters, in my opinion, is where the balance lies between profitability and enjoyment. Microtransactions in and of themselves aren't really a problem, it's how they are implemented, and how "essential" they are to have an enjoyable experience.

Thank you.

[BouncyFrag]

This generation has seen the gaming industry wear us down and accept microtransactions as a normal, expected part of gaming and it will only expand. Whenever EA aquired Bioware, I really didn't notice or care, but its pretty clear that it hasn't been a good thing when looking back on the ME and DA franchises.

[Itkovian]

StElmo wrote...

In ME3 you got an email and a delivery.

You think paypal opening up in DA3's window would be LESS immersion breaking?

Really?

I don't see where I wrote or implied that, to be quite honest.

Indeed, I'd think that having Paypal pop in the DA3 window would be bad, unless it were at the main menu (outside the gameplay itself).

What I was saying is I would like an in character way of obtaining microtransaction items, rather than having the items magically pop in my inventory. Getting an email from the Illusive Man was not a bad way to do it, to be honest.

But I'm talking about more involved microtransactions, something along the line of LOTRO or other F2P games, where you can just just open the LOTRO store, buy something, and it magically appears in your inventory. I personally would prefer having to take my character to a physical store in the game and purchase the items there, purely for the immersion and flavour.

OR, to use DA2 as a (fake) example, if it had had a microtransaction store, the Black Emporium would have been a good way to handle it. This special store that you go to and explore, and whatever items you buy there would instead be purchased using bioware points (with the bioware points being purchased through BSN, or perhaps through the game's main menu... the LAST thing I'd want is to have paypal open up while I'm playing).

Basically, if there is to be a microtransaction store, I'd rather it be integrated in the gameplay instead of a "Dragon Age Store" button on the toolbar.

Hopefully that makes more sense.

Thank you.

[JoltDealer]

Lazengan wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Over the years, I have gone from a gamer to a person whose prospective career lies in video games and whose friends are already members of the industry.  I will say this, many of the "money-grubbing" practices you despise are all techniques we use to ensure that we get paid and our families stay fed.  There are so many ways to cheat the developers out of the money they deserve such as buying used and borrowing from a friend.  As a gamer, I get it.  Games are expenisve and it's often tempting to find a cheaper way to get your hands on it, but when you do that, there's one more consumer who won't actually buy the game.  One more person whose money won't go towards the cost of making the game and paying the employees who spent countless hours on it.

oh this is cute

if that were true, every indie publisher would be dead and killed out with so many "pirates".

the truth is that even though people torrent, if they truly want to support the developpers, they will buy the game. Indie published games made by 3 college students part time receive great critical acclaim and garner more loyal fans than big blockbuster titles, even if they are not financially as successful. They maintain their loyal customer base through delivered promises of quality and respect. At the end of the day, their attitude towards the business isn't focused about the revenue. They need money to make video games, not "they want money so lets make video games"

The liberal atittude towards piracy has only been encouraged and exemplified ever since big business started to capitalize on this industry. Let them be the victims of their own greed and arrogance

I don't know if you meant it that way, but calling my post "cute" comes across as condescending and insulting towards me.  I meant no offense in my post and I am merely trying to provide a different viewpoint based on my experiences and the experiences of those close to me (i.e. friends, colleagues, and former classmates).

While you make a good point, few indie games are successful.  There is time and money that goes into making those games regardless and few are able to "make it".  And for every successful indie game that achieves critical acclaim, there are at least ten that don't.  And you are right, you need money to make games, but why do you need money?  You need the money to pay all of the people who code, program, design, and just make the game in general.  You also need money to fund other projects being made by other developers who work under the same publisher.  The capital that is required to start a new project and hire the necessary staff does not grow on trees.  Now I can't speak for executives who get paid much more than I or any of the people I know, but what I do know is that many of us rely on the money made from games to pay our rent, pay for food, and pay for transportation to and from work.  If you did this for a living, wouldn't you want some kind of assurance that you're going to get paid?

If you worked at McDonalds and I asked you to spend an entire day making the best food you could for everyone without getting paid, would you?

[Wulfram]

Crimson Sound wrote...

There are so many ways to cheat the developers out of the money they deserve such as buying used and borrowing from a friend. 

Buying second hand or borrowing from a friend is in no way a "cheat"

[Xerxes52]

Wulfram wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

There are so many ways to cheat the developers out of the money they deserve such as buying used and borrowing from a friend. 

Buying second hand or borrowing from a friend is in no way a "cheat"

Agreed. This entire "buying used = stealing" fallacy needs to die. As of right now, the First Sale Doctrine still guarantees you the right to resell your games (or give them to friends). The industry hasn't eroded that to nothing just yet.



But on topic:

If microtransactions help pave the way for substantial free DLC (preferably single-player story DLC), then I'm fine with that.

Modifié par Xerxes52, 23 janvier 2013 - 08:23 .

[Lazengan]

Crimson Sound wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Over the years, I have gone from a gamer to a person whose prospective career lies in video games and whose friends are already members of the industry.  I will say this, many of the "money-grubbing" practices you despise are all techniques we use to ensure that we get paid and our families stay fed.  There are so many ways to cheat the developers out of the money they deserve such as buying used and borrowing from a friend.  As a gamer, I get it.  Games are expenisve and it's often tempting to find a cheaper way to get your hands on it, but when you do that, there's one more consumer who won't actually buy the game.  One more person whose money won't go towards the cost of making the game and paying the employees who spent countless hours on it.

If you worked at McDonalds and I asked you to spend an entire day making the best food you could for everyone without getting paid, would you?

I would quit. 

I believe that people who create video games should never do it for a living, it's just prone to so much corruption and abuse. 

Those who want to develop video games, should be developping video games for the sake of the game and the culture in general, not as a means to live off. That is when they truly care about the sake of the game, and not focus on anything else but

Modifié par Lazengan, 23 janvier 2013 - 09:33 .

[John Epler]

Lazengan wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Over the years, I have gone from a gamer to a person whose prospective career lies in video games and whose friends are already members of the industry.  I will say this, many of the "money-grubbing" practices you despise are all techniques we use to ensure that we get paid and our families stay fed.  There are so many ways to cheat the developers out of the money they deserve such as buying used and borrowing from a friend.  As a gamer, I get it.  Games are expenisve and it's often tempting to find a cheaper way to get your hands on it, but when you do that, there's one more consumer who won't actually buy the game.  One more person whose money won't go towards the cost of making the game and paying the employees who spent countless hours on it.

If you worked at McDonalds and I asked you to spend an entire day making the best food you could for everyone without getting paid, would you?

I would quit. 

I believe that people who create video games should never do it for a living, it's just prone to so much corruption and abuse. 

Those who want to develop video games, should be developping video games for the sake of the game and the culture in general, not as a means to live off. That is when they truly care about the sake of the game, and not focus on anything else but

I'm taking this as an offer on your part to pay me a living wage, then?

Very, -very- few people in the gaming industry do it for any other reason than because they love to do it. The salary, while certainly nothing to sneeze at, isn't spectacular, particularly when you consider the number of hours we work. There are a lot of jobs out there that pay better and require far less of an investment of your personal life. Anyone who isn't passionate about games tends not to last beyond a couple of years because they quickly realize that the biggest thing this career path offers is job satisfaction, and if you don't believe in what you do then that's not something you're going to feel nearly as much.

[Lazengan]

John Epler wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Over the years, I have gone from a gamer to a person whose prospective career lies in video games and whose friends are already members of the industry.  I will say this, many of the "money-grubbing" practices you despise are all techniques we use to ensure that we get paid and our families stay fed.  There are so many ways to cheat the developers out of the money they deserve such as buying used and borrowing from a friend.  As a gamer, I get it.  Games are expenisve and it's often tempting to find a cheaper way to get your hands on it, but when you do that, there's one more consumer who won't actually buy the game.  One more person whose money won't go towards the cost of making the game and paying the employees who spent countless hours on it.

If you worked at McDonalds and I asked you to spend an entire day making the best food you could for everyone without getting paid, would you?

I would quit. 

I believe that people who create video games should never do it for a living, it's just prone to so much corruption and abuse. 

Those who want to develop video games, should be developping video games for the sake of the game and the culture in general, not as a means to live off. That is when they truly care about the sake of the game, and not focus on anything else but

I'm taking this as an offer on your part to pay me a living wage, then?

Very, -very- few people in the gaming industry do it for any other reason than because they love to do it. The salary, while certainly nothing to sneeze at, isn't spectacular, particularly when you consider the number of hours we work. There are a lot of jobs out there that pay better and require far less of an investment of your personal life. Anyone who isn't passionate about games tends not to last beyond a couple of years because they quickly realize that the biggest thing this career path offers is job satisfaction, and if you don't believe in what you do then that's not something you're going to feel nearly as much.

honestly..

yeah

if I knew my funds were going 100% to the developer's living costs

and these developpers spend their everyday working hours dedicated to making video games. Yea I would pay. 

[AlanC9]

StElmo wrote...

You think paypal opening up in DA3's window would be LESS immersion breaking?

Maybe the proposal is to just give DA3 your credit card info when you install it.

[Xewaka]

Crimson Sound wrote...
There are so many ways to cheat the developers out of the money they deserve such as buying used and borrowing from a friend. 

First Sell rights. Check them out.

[Cutlass Jack]

Lazengan wrote...

I believe that people who create video games should never do it for a living, it's just prone to so much corruption and abuse.

Those who want to develop video games, should be developping video games for the sake of the game and the culture in general, not as a means to live off. That is when they truly care about the sake of the game, and not focus on anything else but

So you feel they should focus on nothing but the game yet not actually do that for a living? What? So how do you presume they feed themselves and their famlies, let alone finance the games you'd want to play?

You can create a drawing with little more investment than a pencil and a piece of paper, but an entire game requires a little more work than that.

Please create your own AAA video game using nothing but love and unemployment and let us know how far you get. I'm looking forward to you showing us all how its done.

[rapscallioness]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Emzamination wrote...

Down with microtransactions


Actually EA has spoken on why they use microtransactions in their games

This by itself is enough for us to be very, very wary of EA and its microtransaction practises.

yeah, and that lil snippet is what gives me the creeps. Srsly.

I understand the industry needs to make more money. Things have gone up. Perhaps, they can...talk to somebody that knows somebody that knows something abt that? I'm personally okay w/paying $80 instead of $60 for an SP game. I have no problem with that.

But what I have a problem with is.....this way of thinking abt it like in this vid snippet. The whole wait til the player is emotional invested, then stick it to 'em.

It's very...hmmm--crack/heroine dealer; Creeper/Predator thinking. That's what bad ppl do. Wth?

Micro transactions like in ME3 MP I see no prob w/it. It's not necessary, but an Option for those who want it. Cool. And alot do want it.

You don't have to trick gamers to get their money. Make good product and we will chase you down, wrestle you to the ground and force you to take our money.

Modifié par rapscallioness, 23 janvier 2013 - 11:01 .

[Cutlass Jack]

rapscallioness wrote...

You don't have to trick gamers to get their money. Make good product and we will chase you down, wrestle you to the ground and force you to take our money.

So true! Exactly how I feel about it.

Since my last post wasn't on the main topic, I've got no problem with paying for good stuff. I'm all for paying more to have more added to a great game. So far, I've yet to get a DLC from a Bioware game I was disappointed in. The ones I knew were stupid I could spot a mile off (Looking at you, Feastday!)

But not every company I've had as much luck with. Capcom put out some truly misleading and lame 'quest' dlcs for Dragon's Dogma I grumbled about. Long story short, I expect DLCs and/or Microtransactions on nearly every big game release. Just make em good.

[rapscallioness]

DD's quest dlc's....sigh..yeah. I was disappoint.

[JoltDealer]

Lazengan wrote...

John Epler wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Crimson Sound wrote...

Over the years, I have gone from a gamer to a person whose prospective career lies in video games and whose friends are already members of the industry.  I will say this, many of the "money-grubbing" practices you despise are all techniques we use to ensure that we get paid and our families stay fed.  There are so many ways to cheat the developers out of the money they deserve such as buying used and borrowing from a friend.  As a gamer, I get it.  Games are expenisve and it's often tempting to find a cheaper way to get your hands on it, but when you do that, there's one more consumer who won't actually buy the game.  One more person whose money won't go towards the cost of making the game and paying the employees who spent countless hours on it.

If you worked at McDonalds and I asked you to spend an entire day making the best food you could for everyone without getting paid, would you?

I would quit. 

I believe that people who create video games should never do it for a living, it's just prone to so much corruption and abuse. 

Those who want to develop video games, should be developping video games for the sake of the game and the culture in general, not as a means to live off. That is when they truly care about the sake of the game, and not focus on anything else but

I'm taking this as an offer on your part to pay me a living wage, then?

Very, -very- few people in the gaming industry do it for any other reason than because they love to do it. The salary, while certainly nothing to sneeze at, isn't spectacular, particularly when you consider the number of hours we work. There are a lot of jobs out there that pay better and require far less of an investment of your personal life. Anyone who isn't passionate about games tends not to last beyond a couple of years because they quickly realize that the biggest thing this career path offers is job satisfaction, and if you don't believe in what you do then that's not something you're going to feel nearly as much.

honestly..

yeah

if I knew my funds were going 100% to the developer's living costs

and these developpers spend their everyday working hours dedicated to making video games. Yea I would pay. 

That was pretty much my point, and I'm sorry if I made it seem like I was primarily focused on the idea of making money.  I thank John Epler for stepping in there.  Why do I want to make games?  Because my younger brother was born with cerebral palsy and they had him play video games to combat the effects of his condition.  We once thought he was going to be in a wheel chair and now he's a 6'3", 220 lb. genius who's working on becoming a civil engineer.  I want to make games because I know how much good they can do, but unfortunately the world doesn't give a free pass to anyone.  I pay rent, I pay utility bills, I pay for food, I pay car payments, I pay for gas, and I pay for school.  The only thing I splurge on is games because they are my passion.  

Admittedly, it's tough to understand from the outside that what I once viewed as "evil business practices" are really just their way of making sure that they have, at the very least, enough to pay people like John, my friends, and myself.  Even then, there's no way to guarantee a game won't be a flop or that some executive won't take more than his fair share, but this is the way I see it from my point of view.  Many just lost their jobs at THQ because pretty much as of today, THQ is no more.  It's stuff like that that reminds me that this is far from the most stable career path, but there are few other things I love doing as much as this.

Also, I just noticed your username.  I loved Gurren Lagann.

[MichaelStuart]

I have nothing against microtransactions per say, my problem with them is that offer me nothing I see worth paying real money for.

[AshenShug4r]

Manipulating buyer sensitivity in videogames just seems immoral and unnecessary. It's only going to get worse. How long until it becomes a part of the game design itself? Instead of focusing on the quality of the gaming experience, half the development will be 'hmm can we implement a micro-transaction here? What about here?'. Making in-game items weaker and less effective than their dlc counterparts. Giving you the option of killing a secret boss with new loot but only if you pay a dollar for the key to the boss room. Instead of improving the experience, it becomes finding the best way to effectively gouge the player.

This is more an emotional argument than anything, but I just want to see developers focused on making excellent games where we beg them for more content so we can dive right back in. I don't want to be prompted to buy things, or tempted with trinkets that are superior to anything I could find while exploring the world. It feels a bit like buying a book with missing chapters or absent dialogue.
I'm apprehensive about the future of gaming microtransactions to say the least.

[Lazengan]

AshenShug4r wrote...

Manipulating buyer sensitivity in videogames just seems immoral and unnecessary. It's only going to get worse. How long until it becomes a part of the game design itself? Instead of focusing on the quality of the gaming experience, half the development will be 'hmm can we implement a micro-transaction here? What about here?'. Making in-game items weaker and less effective than their dlc counterparts. Giving you the option of killing a secret boss with new loot but only if you pay a dollar for the key to the boss room. Instead of improving the experience, it becomes finding the best way to effectively gouge the player.

Current business practice

content is purposely ommited from launch release, or is under-developped on purpose to sell as DLC later on. 

Back in my day, they weren't called DLCs, they were called expansion packs

Compare:

[Lazengan]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

I believe that people who create video games should never do it for a living, it's just prone to so much corruption and abuse.

Those who want to develop video games, should be developping video games for the sake of the game and the culture in general, not as a means to live off. That is when they truly care about the sake of the game, and not focus on anything else but

So you feel they should focus on nothing but the game yet not actually do that for a living? What? So how do you presume they feed themselves and their famlies, let alone finance the games you'd want to play?

You can create a drawing with little more investment than a pencil and a piece of paper, but an entire game requires a little more work than that.

Please create your own AAA video game using nothing but love and unemployment and let us know how far you get. I'm looking forward to you showing us all how its done.

I don't see the gaming industry as a stable enough field to maintain a career for a long time

I guess it's just how capitalism works. 

Though I can honestly live in a world of indie products and projects created by those who have the spare time and the money. I don't need an industry dedicating itself day and night to pump out game content for me to eat up. I have spent much more time playing Frozen Throne and CSS custom maps made by random people with no other incentive than for fun, than any other retail game. 

If I want a story, I can always read a book. If I want an interactive story, I can purchase an interactive novel or a choose your own adventure book

I play games for gameplay. Many free projects and indie products actually deliver this

Modifié par Lazengan, 24 janvier 2013 - 02:43 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

I love the idea of microtransactions. They should allow the entire game to be modular, with us being able to purchase the features we like and ignore those we don't.

Want a mini-map? Pay for it. Want full party control? Pay for it. Want a tactics screen? Pay for it. Want a free-roaming tactical camera? Pay for it. But if you don't want those things, you get to save some money.

[levyjl1988]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I love the idea of microtransactions. They should allow the entire game to be modular, with us being able to purchase the features we like and ignore those we don't.

Want a mini-map? Pay for it. Want full party control? Pay for it. Want a tactics screen? Pay for it. Want a free-roaming tactical camera? Pay for it. But if you don't want those things, you get to save some money.

If developers removed those features from their games and had gamers pay for it, gamers will skip out on it entirely. 
Seasoned gamers have high exectations for games and it's easy for the compeition to easily outclass the other. 

If Dead Space 3 is incoporating micro-transactions for their game and another third person doesn't but meets the same standard or even exceeds it. I will go on to the comepetitor. 

Already I have witnessed content in other games that have done a better job without the use of cheap business tactics like micro-transactions.

It's the reason why I chose Tomb Raider over Dead Space 3. I will not be purchasing Dead Space 3 nor I am a fan of it any longer. It doesn't meet my standard anymore.

As for Dragon Age 3: inquisition if it follows the trends of micro-transactions in that sense, all I can say is see ya. There's other games I can play. And if i want to experience the game just for the story I'll but it used and I won't support the developer any more. 

Games aren't becoming consumer friendly anymore as to suppose past games. 
Remember when all you had to do in games before was enter a cheat code and you can unlock a new skin instead of paying for it? Remember the time when you want a different color reskin you just had to change the palette in game rather than paying for it. 

I'm seeing features that were once free now being extorted as payable items. It's really sad and infuriating. After seeing Gearbox pull this stunt I'm not a fan any more. Sure I'm a bit extreme but I don't like this new direction. 

I'll go on to supporting other developers and publishers that understand the consumer.

[MerinTB]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I love the idea of microtransactions. They should allow the entire game to be modular, with us being able to purchase the features we like and ignore those we don't.

Want a mini-map? Pay for it. Want full party control? Pay for it. Want a tactics screen? Pay for it. Want a free-roaming tactical camera? Pay for it. But if you don't want those things, you get to save some money.

That has to be the worst idea I've ever see you espouse.