67 réponses à ce sujet

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

It has been noted by people that the BSN is growing in 'toxicity'...and so it may seem it is happening all over gaming. Lashing out at games, forum rage on various forums, YouTube rants, metacritic bombing, etc. It seems to be growing and growing...and its interesting to observe. But what is causing it?

Is it due to gamer entitlement?
Is it due to fan disappointment?
What about seeking too wide an audience?
Is it greed?
Is it merging of genres?
Is it overreaction?
Is it causing drama for no reason?
Is it natural market reaction, supply or demand side?

So many potential reasons. Why has grumblings and backlashes and negativity in gaming so common these days? It's interesting to hear all perspectives, but let's be civil and polite and look into the core of why its happening.

[wsandista]

Everywhere is getting more toxic, not just the BSN. The BSN may be much more toxic than other areas, but the increasing toxicity is far from exclusive to it.

[sympathy4sarenreturns]

That's what I mean. It's a growing thing. But why?

[Inquisitor Recon]

Because toxic waste tastes delicious, that's why.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Warning: This post may annoy 95% of people!

Because of Internet (which has lead to many extremes like Trolling sites, YouTube, Whiny fans and easy access to modern cults), Arrogance, Wanting the best of everything for yourself, Overreaction (by consumers) and Greed (by companies) etc.

I suppose the situation wasn't this bad in 90s and 50s was quite "Ideal" comparing to today!

[gneisenau556]

sympathy4sarenreturns wrote...

It has been noted by people that the BSN is growing in 'toxicity'...and so it may seem it is happening all over gaming. Lashing out at games, forum rage on various forums, YouTube rants, metacritic bombing, etc. It seems to be growing and growing...and its interesting to observe. But what is causing it?

Is it due to gamer entitlement?
Is it due to fan disappointment?
What about seeking too wide an audience?
Is it greed?
Is it merging of genres?
Is it overreaction?
Is it causing drama for no reason?
Is it natural market reaction, supply or demand side?

So many potential reasons. Why has grumblings and backlashes and negativity in gaming so common these days? It's interesting to hear all perspectives, but let's be civil and polite and look into the core of why its happening.

Do you have a precise definition of toxic, and/or empirical evidence that there are more "toxic" people on the web than before ?

[brettc893]

I blame the corruption of game journalism.

[Lotion Soronarr]

The Internet also provides anonimity (meaning you cna get away with a lot of stuff easily) and the rise of piracy and free/indy developers also caused the rise in the feeling of entiltement.

IMHO, the current generations of internet dwellers are spoiled, rotten primadonnas and rant and rave against everything without properly thinking or without any restraint.

[Neoleviathan]

BSN's "toxicity" levels will probably drop when the new games are out. People will have something new to focus on, right now the last major release was ME3... I think thats part of why DA:I was announced abit early, to get people thinking & talking about something different. As far as other places it really depends on where you are at. Some gaming sites are pleasant, people are helpful, friendly, & generous. Others not so much... Keep in mind, this is part of EA. When your EA you are the biggest target around for critisism, deserved or otherwise. Since Bioware is now apart of EA, they now get to recieve hate outside of their own fanbase. So theres that element too. The backlash... I thought gaming journalism really fanned allot of the flames there. Thats no longer much of an issue as they now have more sensational stories to exploit.

[mr_afk]

I think it might be something to do with the nature of some of the topics been discussed on these forums. That and the type of people that frequent those topics.


From what I've seen of the various gameplay and strategy/classes and builds subforums, the posters there are usually helpful and courteous, sharing various tips and stratagems, exploring the game's mechanics together. There is a strong sense of community, with posters taking the time and effort to write up guides, record gameplay videos, or give advice.
This seems to hold true for all of their games, from the dragonage and mass effect series to the older d&d games.
The fan creations/modding subforums also seem to share these characteristics - although I personally haven't really frequented them.

I also remember the threads and subforums dealing with lore been quite pleasant, with posters interacting with devs and each other to gain greater understanding of the game's setting.

The relatively pleasant discussion within these subforums is made possible due to the non-subjective nature of these topics. While people may have preferences towards certain styles of play/builds, there's something concrete about how the game mechanics work. Or aspects relating to game lore.


The trouble arises in the subforums designed for 'feedback'. While undoubtedly a useful tool for the developers, feedback is by its nature very opinionated. Someone might hate what someone else loves. When it comes to 'constructive criticism', strong opinions can easily lead to pure venting/ranting - where it simply becomes repetition of complaints. It also can 'poison' the more positive threads, where someone's appreciation of the game or any differences in opinion are attacked.


As games get older, the gameplay/strategy and fan creations/modding subforums become more quiet. This leaves behind the posters who are invested in getting their opinions heard, rather than posters who are here to share and further their understanding and appreciation of the game.

Even back in the days when DA:O had just come out - when I used to frequent the dragonage.wikia forums - the bioware social network was rather notorious for the number of trolls and the sense of elitism present in the general forums.
With the rather polarised reception of recent games like DA2 and me3, the number of very vocal and opinionated posters would probably have greatly increased.


So basically, I think it's to do with the nature of these types of forums. No matter what bioware does, some people are going to be dissatisfied and feel the need to express it.

Modifié par mr_afk, 23 janvier 2013 - 09:40 .

[eroeru]

edit: shouldn't try to write stuff when I'm ill and/or tired, really.

Modifié par eroeru, 23 janvier 2013 - 05:04 .

[whykikyouwhy]

I think what we might be seeing is the product of a few decades where "looking out for #1" has been the motto. Going beyond self-sufficiency and survival, going beyond ambition, the social messages have been, in both subtle and blatant ways, about personal gain, with little or no regard for the people around you.

That manifests in a lot of ways - from failing to be courteous on the streets/in the stores, to feeling as though a person is free to say whatever he/she wants. Then wrap the latter in a layer of anonymity, with hardly any consequences or repercussions.

This is all my opinion of course, but I really feel like a lot of it has to do with the blinders we now seem to be collectively wearing. The internet is something that allows that disregard to perpetuate, but it's not the sole platform where this exists. It's not really a problem unique to any one group or to the gaming community. It's pretty wide-spread across society. Which makes it difficult to fix - certainly it can't be fixed in one way, or quickly. Though I suppose I might be a little idealistic in thinking that we can alter the climate little by little.

[bleetman]

J. Reezy wrote...

Complaints about games, game companies, game journalists, and game publishers weren't nearly as widespread. The internet has provided in avenue for people to air their grievances fairly easily.

Whilst the latter part is true, I'd suggest that games, game companies, game journalism and game publishers have, as a whole, increasingly gone out of their way to provide us reasons to complain about them.

Not that I don't enjoy being treated like a criminal that requires constant observation to make sure I'm not doing illegal things with a product that I paid for but don't own, all the while being strung up like a giant cash pinata ready to be wacked open. "A thrilling experience", IGN 10/10.

Modifié par bleetman, 23 janvier 2013 - 12:29 .

[wolfsite]

I would have to say it's more of a combination of a few things:

-Entitlement
-Easier access to developers/publishers thanks to the Internet
-Easier access to game information.
-Feeling of being anonymous.

A lot of these have made the community more toxic, before all this if you wanted to complain you had to write a letter, however we tended to write letters more thoughtfully since we were tought that letters were still a personal form of conveince (well we were anyway) so you could bring a complaint but you weere still respectful to the person.

Now you can just go online and shoot hate and rage at anyone with the feeling of being safe thinking they are unable to find out who you are behind the screen name.

[Hainkpe]

Why does there have to be one reason? More likely its a plethora of reasons, each part of the individual that is being toxic. To me, in my opinion, its society right now. Much unrest and no clear leadership.

[mousestalker]

I don't see the percentages of nasty posts increasing. The raw numbers have gone up due to increases in the base population. Since green card spam debuted and the masses flooded in, the Internet has generally been pretty toxic.

Back in the day, the Everquest forums were far far worse than here.

[brettc893]

wolfsite wrote...

I would have to say it's more of a combination of a few things:

-Entitlement
-Easier access to developers/publishers thanks to the Internet
-Easier access to game information.
-Feeling of being anonymous.

A lot of these have made the community more toxic, before all this if you wanted to complain you had to write a letter, however we tended to write letters more thoughtfully since we were tought that letters were still a personal form of conveince (well we were anyway) so you could bring a complaint but you weere still respectful to the person.

Now you can just go online and shoot hate and rage at anyone with the feeling of being safe thinking they are unable to find out who you are behind the screen name.

Yes, because the state of the industry itself deserves no blame at all. Whatsoever. It's all whiney entitled gamers.

[RedArmyShogun]

It is to prep us for the Global Thunderdome battle of 2076. We will fight to the death all of us. And who wins becomes protector of the Earth and remakes humanity. It is the 24th battle actully. We Used to be the dino's, its written in the Runes. Embrace this fact. I will be the new creator. You have no choice.

Modifié par RedArmyShogun, 23 janvier 2013 - 01:41 .

[wolfsite]

brettc893 wrote...

wolfsite wrote...

I would have to say it's more of a combination of a few things:

-Entitlement
-Easier access to developers/publishers thanks to the Internet
-Easier access to game information.
-Feeling of being anonymous.

A lot of these have made the community more toxic, before all this if you wanted to complain you had to write a letter, however we tended to write letters more thoughtfully since we were tought that letters were still a personal form of conveince (well we were anyway) so you could bring a complaint but you weere still respectful to the person.

Now you can just go online and shoot hate and rage at anyone with the feeling of being safe thinking they are unable to find out who you are behind the screen name.

Yes, because the state of the industry itself deserves no blame at all. Whatsoever. It's all whiney entitled gamers.

Thank you for interpreting my comment completely wrong.

These are the reasons I feel for the increase, as the OP has stated.  Some complaining is justified, however a lot of it, especially posts where someone rages or insults another without any reason, is not.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

People have always been obnoxious, whiny, little brats on the internet. Internet dickwad theory always holds true.

The advent of social media (twitter the most obvious example) has allowed people bigger and easier avenues to communicate their opinions, magnifying the "toxicity" that's always been there.

Then there are members of the gaming journalism fraternity with a complete lack of critical thinking and attempts at objectivity, replacing that with a healthy dose of arrogance (i.e fanboys/girls with a press pass) who just agitate the situation more.

It seems to be something that's not constrained to the gaming community, however. Rather, it seems to be a societal issue, of how having anonymity can oddly strip people of empathy and perspective, or how people are more selfish in general.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 23 janvier 2013 - 01:47 .

[Nerevar-as]

brettc893 wrote...

Yes, because the state of the industry itself deserves no blame at all. Whatsoever. It's all whiney entitled gamers.

This. The internet gives us somewhere to voice our opinion, but the feeling is created by the games and people who made them. Since when is a consumer guilty of the flaws of a product they paid for? And while politeness is required, I don´t see why I can´t criticize someone I think made a bad job and got paid for it thanks to my (wasted) money.

[Fast Jimmy]

I don't feel I am qualified or equipped with the right amount of data to even say IF the internet is becoming more toxic. Going back to some of my earlier days, there were certainly some seedy, pompous and extremely caustic elements of the internet back in its beginnings. As mouse said, percentage wise, I don't think we've seen huge leaps, but as numbers grow, so do the the people who fall under those percentages. Acting like a total jerk through virtual anonymity isn't something new to the world in this generation. It may just be as the pool of virtual users increases, the rock is easier to kick over to see the squirming bits of vermin that inhabit it.


All that being said, I think I feel a little more qualified to give some explanations on why the BSN has become more toxic (although I am hardly an expert).

As people in this thread have said, DA2 was a bit of a tipping point for many. The fears of the EA acquisition resulting in rushed work that stripped away many classical RPG elements now had a target, ripe for the plucking. Many saw it as the embodiment of the EA prior history - acquire a developer with a solid IP and then market it like crazy to the widest possible audience, pushing out sequels as fast as possible with second rate quality to rake in the big bucks. Whether EA deserves this reputation or whether Bioware fell into that mold is almost irrelevant and not the point I am making.

The point is that people (on the BSN and the video game community at large) found it easy to PERCEIVE it to be that. So, perception became reality. Bioware no longer became a respectable developer, merely a puppet for EA's stock holders. RPGs were going to become more "pew-pew Awesome Button" and the Decline had begun. Again... not something that is neccessarily true or untrue, just the PERCEPTION of many. So, because of this perception, that Bioware sold out and that EA was in total control in an effort to milk gamers of their money, they became easy to target and mock.

This set the tone. A tone of "its okay to insult the developer." Then came the QUANTITY. Then came the tidal wave. Then came... ME3.

Bioware tried to do something... out-of-the-box, shall we say?... for ME3 and its story. They gave us, after three games and hundreds of hours of work, what many consider a no-win solution. You basically told millions of gamers who fashioned themselves as a cross between Captain Kirk and Rambo that they couldn't out think, speak or shoot their way out of a situation, after giving them countless upon COUNTLESS of experiences to the contrary throughout the rest of the series. I'm not even going to bring the endings themselves or the narrative into question, just the game design's overall net result (intended or not).

Now, you have thousands, tens of thousands, HUNDREDS of thousands of fans registering their accounts for the first time to say, in layman's terms... WTF?!

Many may have just joined to state their grievances. And that may have been fine. But then you had the prevailing "its okay to make fun of Bioware" mentality existent in the forum and it became quickly out of control.

I remember weeks after the ME3 release, the forums there ALL had topics created less than a minute ago. AN ENTIRE PAGE OF TOPICS. CREATED LESS THAN A MINUTE AGO.

From a sheer volume stand point, that wasn't something Bioware could ever hope to police or monitor. Even if every employee at Bioware stopped working on game development and instead acted as a moderator, they couldn't have hoped to keep up. The actual resources available were significantly less than that.

So what did Bioware do? The only thing they could do. Watch the forums burn. Sure, bans and thread locks were handed out. But only for the most aggregious and for the most insane. And, of course, for the most reported. Without a clear way of reporting anything on the BSN (the "Report this post" button is a bit of a joke), vast swaths of content and posts that would have been locked in a heartbeat now had free reign, to insult, belittle, attack Bioware as a company, EA as a company, fellow forumites, specific EA or Bioware employees... it was open season.

The fans took control of the forums. And the fans were rabid.

Now, ten months later, things have slowed down. But Bioware has still not taken the reins back. Not completely. They don't want to be viewed as tyrants of their own forums, allowing only good things to be posted. The thing is, while emotions have cooled, attitudes remain roughly the same. Fellow forumites are scum if they don't agree with us. Bioware/EA are soulless corporations in it just for fleecing innocent gamers. Bioware will lie through their teeth to make their games sound better than they are, so nothing they can say will help anything. And if you don't agree with what I say and how I say it, that's YOUR problem, not mine.

Essentially, to parrot a forum sig I've seen, the BSN is at war - with Bioware, itself and the world. We've just transitioned from a "hot" war of the post-ME3 fallout to a "cold" war of the doldrums between releases.

Many think that DA3 will be a return to better times for the forums, where once we have a bit of news and actual game information to discuss, people will focus on the game and leave old behaviors behind.

I disagree.

I think that for many, it will be this way - DA3 will be seen as a fresh start to try and enjoy a good game and get excited about a new game. But, with new news comes a resurgence of forumites. While some of the more regular posters have gotten most things out of their system, the BSNers who will be returning to the forum to find out news about DA3 this Spring may be the same ones who rage/quited after ME3.

We'll see a huge glut of people return only to say "ME3 was terrible, DA3 looks terrible, I'm never buying a Bioware product ever again." Or "they told us there wasn't going to be MP for ME3, then lied to us and put it in. You'll see, DA lovers!" Or "Bioware stopped making RPGs long ago, this shirt they are shoveling you and calling chocolate pudding is terrible!"

DA3 will bring a return to real game conversations, but with new info comes old trolls. And while things may get better if DA3's release is stunning, it will get worse before it gets better as we all get closer to that release. And, of course, Heaven help the BSN if DA3 fails to deliver the goods and is received anywhere NEARLY as tepid as DA2 was.

Just my personal view on things.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 23 janvier 2013 - 02:07 .

[hangmans tree]

Upbringing. With every new generation the boundries are pushed back further. Civility, manners, ideals (or lack thereof) and morals we all adhere to (or not). That is the main problem.

What is wrong with the population in general? Lack of values. No virtues. Why so surprised the forums and communities are what they are? Too many young ones exposed too early to things not ment for their age with NO parental control.

Besides its no secret gouvernments want less educated and critically thinking citizens. Thus poor state of deucation systems all over. CONSUME, CONFORM, BUY, PROCREATE, WATCH TV, DO NOT QUESTION AUTHORITY... sound familiar?

Modifié par hangmans tree, 23 janvier 2013 - 02:42 .