220 réponses à ce sujet

[GHNR]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Ultranovae wrote...

It's interesting to see these boards as a testing ground for the reaction the public would have to synthesis in the ME universe. Some would love, some would hate it. I chose synthesis and I was afraid it was too happy rainbows and unicorns, but seeing the divisiveness it clearly creates, I'm again happy of my decision knowing that it can lead to an interesting population dynamic.

No conflict there, right.  Oh as long as it's not synthetics killing organics then everything is fine.  Synthetics get understanding from somewhere, who knows.  Organics get tech completely integrated inside them from somewhere, who knows.  And eventually immortality is achieved-EDI says so.  However, synthetics already are immortal (I think Javik says this), and immortal organics that can breed aren't bound to cause any problems are they?

And again there is the lesson of the Zha'til.  The tech took over inside organic peoples' bodies.  Sounds like a plan.

Yes but thats the result of an AI being part of an organic mind, then taking over the body. Synthesis doesn't make fuse an AI to your head, it just adds implants akin to Shepards.

[GHNR]

Double post, derp.

Modifié par GHNR, 23 janvier 2013 - 10:17 .

[3DandBeyond]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

A step beyond? You mean like the Helios ending in Deus Ex 2? Yeah, it's pretty much like that I think. And although it might look or sound horrific to some people, I don't think it's objectivly bad, evil or horrific at all. Everyone still seems to be themselves in Synthesis and everyone seems to be doing quite well.

Synthesis alone is not bad, evil, or horrific. However, it is horrific when it's forced and presented as the ONLY way two sides can get along.

That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Yes, it completely removes any kind of capability to do this from the equation.  People can never get along so the only way to solve that is to meld them into one similar mass.  Or one that eventually will achieve similarity, because difference is chaos, machines represent order and lack diversity.  It's all in what is said about it and not what people believe it means.  The kid likes it and he wants to achieve order.  Organics are chaotic, so who is changed the most by synthesis?  Synthetics are not changed-they gain knowledge, understanding.  And that is their path to perfection.  But Organics need to be altered to become perfect.  They need tech inside them because they are chaotic.  So, it follows that the tech is there to achieve order, to effectively change Organics to be more like Synthetics who represent order.

[pmac_tk421]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Ultranovae wrote...

It's interesting to see these boards as a testing ground for the reaction the public would have to synthesis in the ME universe. Some would love, some would hate it. I chose synthesis and I was afraid it was too happy rainbows and unicorns, but seeing the divisiveness it clearly creates, I'm again happy of my decision knowing that it can lead to an interesting population dynamic.

No conflict there, right.  Oh as long as it's not synthetics killing organics then everything is fine.  Synthetics get understanding from somewhere, who knows.  Organics get tech completely integrated inside them from somewhere, who knows.  And eventually immortality is achieved-EDI says so.  However, synthetics already are immortal (I think Javik says this), and immortal organics that can breed aren't bound to cause any problems are they?

And again there is the lesson of the Zha'til.  The tech took over inside organic peoples' bodies.  Sounds like a plan.

They aren't doing what the Zha'til did though. They added computer processors to thier brains, which were hackable. Synthesis is the process of adding the favorable components of one side to the other, and making both infinitely greater. The Krogan are still people, but they have been advanced enough to abandon their violent instincts, and they create a greater society. Organics and Synthetics no longer persecute eachother, nor are they programed to like eachother. They are given the willpower to understand, and come to the conclusion naturally.

[kalasaurus]

crimzontearz wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

No. It's transhumanism!  And transhumanism is GOOD.  Therefore Synthesis is GOOD. What's that you say, people who do care about narrative context, thematic consistency, and violation of consent?  LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA.

sounds like what Ashley was doing on horizon

Ashley Williams is the name of the actress who was in the middle of the Human Centipede.

[3DandBeyond]

GHNR wrote...


Yes but thats the result of an AI being part of an organic mind, then taking over the body. Synthesis doesn't make fuse an AI to your head, it just adds implants akin to Shepards.

Go look at the ending again.  Synthesis is tech that is fully integrated inside organics and the cutscene shows it attaching to DNA.  The kid says A NEW DNA.  Without the cutscene you may say he's talking metaphorically, but the green scene shows it becoming a part of DNA.  That is nothing like what happened to Shepard.  The skin on Shepard was regrown just as you see other things inside Shepard regrown-heart and all that.  Bones and such-musculoskeletal are most likely augmented with synthetic material and all.  But, the tech inside Shepard does not control him/her-Miranda makes that clear.  Synthesis and other stories of synthesis indicate that tech that is a full part of the organic make up of a person, can and will change that person.  The Zha'til story is very much like Synthesis.


From the wiki:

"The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable. When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system
into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely. "

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 23 janvier 2013 - 10:25 .

[Applepie_Svk]

....bit like that cake which clown threw to your face...

[dreamgazer]

Synthesis is, apparently, a bit like whatever you want it to be like.

[HiddenInWar]

How is synthesis like having your face in someones ass 

[Meltemph]

People are making a lot of assumptions about the endings... We have been given no context with the endings outside of the slides and the incredibly vague explanation from the kid. It isnt "horrible", because we dont really know what it did, it isnt an "amazing utopia" because we dont really know what it did. Outside of destroy and refuse, we don't really have any details on what control or synthesis did, outside of what the EC showed(which wasn't much for anyone particular for details).

So attributing moral or technical explanations to any of the endings is nothing but creating a narrative for your own personal enjoyment, to help rationalize your choice to what was mainly an irrational decision.

This is emphasized by the fact that the people arguing with each other are stating facts, and then interpreting these facts to mean what they want it too. The only real problem from doing this is it appears people dont know they are doing it.

[dreamgazer]

HiddenInWar wrote...

How is synthesis like having your face in someones ass 

Jokes ... too easy ... must restrain myself ...

[GHNR]

3DandBeyond wrote...

GHNR wrote...


Yes but thats the result of an AI being part of an organic mind, then taking over the body. Synthesis doesn't make fuse an AI to your head, it just adds implants akin to Shepards.

Go look at the ending again.  Synthesis is tech that is fully integrated inside organics and the cutscene shows it attaching to DNA.  The kid says A NEW DNA.  Without the cutscene you may say he's talking metaphorically, but the green scene shows it becoming a part of DNA.  That is nothing like what happened to Shepard.  The skin on Shepard was regrown just as you see other things inside Shepard regrown-heart and all that.  Bones and such-musculoskeletal are most likely augmented with synthetic material and all.  But, the tech inside Shepard does not control him/her-Miranda makes that clear.  Synthesis and other stories of synthesis indicate that tech that is a full part of the organic make up of a person, can and will change that person.  The Zha'til story is very much like Synthesis.


From the wiki:

"The zha'til were a synthetic race that existed at the time of the Protheans. They originated when a race known as the zha implanted themselves with symbiotic AI technology to enhance their intelligence in order to survive as their homeworld became inhospitable. When the Reapers arrived, they subjugated the AIs, known as zha'til, who then seized control of the bodies of their masters and altered their genetic material at the deepest level, transforming the zha into synthetic monsters and their offspring into slaves. The zha'til proceeded to multiply into "mechanical swarms" that "blotted out the sky". With no other recourse, the Protheans sent the star of the zha's home system
into supernova, destroying the zha'til entirely. "

Yes.

However you're missing the point. The Zha'til forcibly turned the Zha into "synthetic monsters", completely destroying any semblance of organic in them.

Synthesis, based on the ending you apparently know so well, doesn't really turn someone, lets say Garrus, into some 10-Foot Spiky monster who speaks with a proboscis. They seem quite content, and, heres the kicker, ORGANIC.

[Untold]

dreamgazer wrote...

Synthesis is, apparently, a bit like whatever you want it to be like.

Pretty much with the info (or lack thereof) we have available. And thus I stand by original assessment. 

Untold wrote...
Na, not quite. ~cringe~

I always thought of Synthesis as a lot like Stroggification. What's Stroggification you ask? I think this scene from Quake 4
can explain that in more detail. In my mind, that's pretty much how I
see synthesis. If you're ok with that then by all means be green and
happy.

Modifié par Untold, 23 janvier 2013 - 10:30 .

[HiddenInWar]

dreamgazer wrote...

HiddenInWar wrote...

How is synthesis like having your face in someones ass 

Jokes ... too easy ... must restrain myself ...

Tell

it

[LTKerr]

HiddenInWar wrote...

How is synthesis like having your face in someones ass 

If I remember correctly, in Synthesis husks, banshees, cannibals or brutes gain self-awareness. Last time I checked, at least cannibals and brutes are made from more than one body (Cannibal's arm is actually a human )


That human is going to have a baaad time if you pick synthesis

Modifié par LTKerr, 23 janvier 2013 - 10:35 .

[3DandBeyond]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

They aren't doing what the Zha'til did though. They added computer processors to thier brains, which were hackable. Synthesis is the process of adding the favorable components of one side to the other, and making both infinitely greater. The Krogan are still people, but they have been advanced enough to abandon their violent instincts, and they create a greater society. Organics and Synthetics no longer persecute eachother, nor are they programed to like eachother. They are given the willpower to understand, and come to the conclusion naturally.

No they altered them at the genetic level.  Synthesis doesn't add anything to synthetics-it gives them understanding (from where?)  But it does alter organics at the genetic level.  And you only think it makes both infinitely greater.  The kid is seeking order.  Synthetics are order. 

But let's go with your example.  If they still have willpower, how has that stopped the conflict?  Unless people really do no longer have their own identities conflict will return.  There's nothing to stop smart people from creating wholly organic people or killer synthetics, so how has this solved the problem?  And people already came to the conclusion naturally.  Without augmentation.  And that's far more credible than some forced understanding that would always remain questionable.  Remember, Shepard did not have tech fully integrated into his/her DNA and Shepard wondered is s/he was real.  A lot of people didn't even like implants of any kind because they didn't trust them.  So, if they have free will and still remain who they are, then how would they just trust this tech that comes from who knows where?  Sure no conflict in any of this at all. 

So they will just realize on their own what works best for everyone?  However, if that is a conclusion they would never have come to without the tech integrated within them, then it would not be a conclusion they came to on their own.  The tech would influence it. 

[AlexMBrennan]

ME1 was about the geth invasion

In ME, you could have replaced every last geth with Rachni/xenomorphs/rating-unfriendly living thing without changing a thing. Just because the opposing force happens to be robotic doesn't mean that it's a central theme of the game.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Except that if you're a smart, handsome, observant person then you can clearly understand the context and why the story is consistent. Some people don't get it, and I don't get them. ME1 was about the geth invasion (synthetics versus organics), ME2 was about the subjugation of a race (the collectors) by the old machines... and ME1 and ME2 weren't about an overarching synthetic-organic struggle? I'm sorry, what?

Furthermore, if you're a smart, handsome, well-read person then you'd be aware that one of the synthesis endings points out that it's entirely optional. So you're objectively wrong on that count. How does that make you feel?

I think synthesis haters hate logic, facts, and observational skills almost as much as they hate synthesis.

Awesome. :happy:

[3DandBeyond]

GHNR wrote...


Yes.

However you're missing the point. The Zha'til forcibly turned the Zha into "synthetic monsters", completely destroying any semblance of organic in them.

Synthesis, based on the ending you apparently know so well, doesn't really turn someone, lets say Garrus, into some 10-Foot Spiky monster who speaks with a proboscis. They seem quite content, and, heres the kicker, ORGANIC.

And you're missing the point that it was the tech inside that changed them.  You're asking Shepard to (knowing that) trust the enemy to insert "happy" tech inside all organic life and integrate fully with the DNA and believe it is not meant to alter people to become more orderly like Synthetics.  Remember, the kid is trying also to establish order and to banish chaos (organic quality).

You are basing your beliefs on super silly slides that don't authentically represent anything logical.  Over-population.  If the Krogan or the Rachni have full autonomy still and if immortality is achieved (though Synthetics already are so why EDI would say this is beyond me), you think they will just decide not to breed?  Would they do that without the tech inside them?

And no they are no longer organic.  That's made clear as well-they have circuitry in their skin.  Surely if you take the slides as something realistic then tech is seen coursing throughout those fully organic bodies.  I'm glad they're content because that makes no sense.  Especially as I said, given that there were people in the story that did not even want implants in their bodies.  Gee, how do you get tech into someone who doesn't want tech in their bodies without forcing it.

Give it time-we have no idea how long it took for the monsters to be created from the Zha.

[Meltemph]

ME1-3 are consistent if details dont matter to you, however, to say that BW didn't change the "consistency" of the plot between all 3 games, seems to be ignoring what we know. The geth alone are proof of a lack of consistency.

But again, appeals to ones own assumptions without facts are great for telling ones personal view on their own personal choice, but it stops there. The argument "it is this way, because I view it this way"... well.

What the game tells us, and what someone infers is not the same thing. The fact that people ahve 20 different versions of what the "theme" was shows how subjective the opinion is. Either way, I'm not sure why "themes" are not a non-sequitur when it comes to your decisions, considering knowledge of the intent of the writer isnt the same as the actual content of the story(the % of what was focused on in actual events).

Modifié par Meltemph, 23 janvier 2013 - 11:17 .

[clennon8]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Furthermore, if you're a smart, handsome, well-read person then you'd be aware that one of the synthesis endings points out that it's entirely optional.

I assume that you, being the smart, handsome, well-read, but still imperfect person that you are, meant to say that one of the synthesis supporters points out that that choosing Synthesis is entirely optional.  Because nothing in the Synthesis epilogue or slides makes it seem like being turned green is optional.

[GHNR]

3DandBeyond wrote...

GHNR wrote...


Yes.

However you're missing the point. The Zha'til forcibly turned the Zha into "synthetic monsters", completely destroying any semblance of organic in them.

Synthesis, based on the ending you apparently know so well, doesn't really turn someone, lets say Garrus, into some 10-Foot Spiky monster who speaks with a proboscis. They seem quite content, and, heres the kicker, ORGANIC.

And you're missing the point that it was the tech inside that changed them.  You're asking Shepard to (knowing that) trust the enemy to insert "happy" tech inside all organic life and integrate fully with the DNA and believe it is not meant to alter people to become more orderly like Synthetics.  Remember, the kid is trying also to establish order and to banish chaos (organic quality).

You are basing your beliefs on super silly slides that don't authentically represent anything logical.  Over-population.  If the Krogan or the Rachni have full autonomy still and if immortality is achieved (though Synthetics already are so why EDI would say this is beyond me), you think they will just decide not to breed?  Would they do that without the tech inside them?

And no they are no longer organic.  That's made clear as well-they have circuitry in their skin.  Surely if you take the slides as something realistic then tech is seen coursing throughout those fully organic bodies.  I'm glad they're content because that makes no sense.  Especially as I said, given that there were people in the story that did not even want implants in their bodies.  Gee, how do you get tech into someone who doesn't want tech in their bodies without forcing it.

Give it time-we have no idea how long it took for the monsters to be created from the Zha.

1) You could basically take your "No trust him" arguement for any choice, but thats another forum.
2) So I can't base my opinions on what the game shows me? Fascinating. As for your immortality and over-population point, I wouldn't worry too much about that considering we have the knowledge of the Reapers on our side.
3) You are correct, that was my fault for not being clear enough. What I meant by "Organic" is showing traits of a organic being; emotions, free will, individuality, that sort of thing. Like you said, beings in Synthesis are no longer completely organic. But the traits that make us who we are, aren't destroyed.

[RogueBot]

Robosexual wrote...

I too was shocked when a game about choices presented a hard choice to me. I wanted the game about galactic survival to hold my hand and not present me with anything that questioned my morals.

Nothing wrong with hard choices, unless they're as contrived as the ones presented in ME3.

good storytelling > hard choices

Although, the consequences of control didn't feel utterly contrived to me. Shepard dying in the process of being "uploaded" seemed like a believable consequence of control.

Modifié par RogueBot, 23 janvier 2013 - 11:42 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Steelcan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The original Synthesis.

. That was hella creepy

It's one of the endings of Deus Ex 2. It's actually the "best" ending in that game. The other endings are worse or more depressing.

[adam32867]