183 réponses à ce sujet

[T41rdEye]

Isn't it funny how we have civil conversations about IT...until antiITers come along and inject their "opinion" that its some kind of cult. Yeah, that's constructive.

Calling ITers delusional isn't helping anything. Does it make you feel better about the game's ending? I don't understand why ppl feel the need to disparage IT. If you don't subscribe to it, then don't post. You're only adding to the toxicity in the forums.

[MattFini]

TurianRebel212 wrote...

And that's what forums should be about discourse and intresting conversations, like I said I personally take IT as my own headcannon. But I also, understand why other people don't and take the endings at face value. I get it. And I don't hate or want to belittle their opinions. Like you said if something creates a discussion on the forums should it be okay to talk about? The problem is you have people that only deal in black and whites and never see others opinions. 

Agreed.

The funny thing is that all of the endings are, I think, meant to be symbolic (part of the reason they don't work for me - they feel pretentious). 

Shepard's swan dive is supposed to be Christ-like. (s)He grabs two pillars in order to 'take' control and must explode a tube in order to destroy the reapers. 

So one has to wonder if the endings were ever intended to be taken literally. I honestly don't think so. I believe the original idea behind the jungle planet was a failed attempt at symbolism.

Having said all that, it also seems like IT can fit. Sure, maybe it was unintentional at first but can people really deny that BioWare wasn't stoking the flames in the EC and Leviathan? Seemed like they were giving a shoutout to IT without confirming or denying. 

I can appreciate that even if I have issues with the ending - no matter the choice or interpretation.  

Modifié par MattFini, 24 janvier 2013 - 12:18 .

[vandalDX]

TurianRebel212 wrote...

MattFini wrote...

TurianRebel212 wrote...

Well, I don't like censorship in any form- it leads to generalizations and stigmatization but if those are the rules then that's cool. The thread was posting a question and it's about indoctrination, which is a major element of the ME universe, being that it's one of the Reapers main weapons of delivery. Just like the  Many other themes like synthetics vs. organics. Transhumanism. Law and order. Hope and love and many more themes. But this thread is posing a question formualting around indoctrination, I'm not coming on here and saying the IT is the end all be all and that's the only way to interpret the endings. The endings are finished and if you do or do not take them at face value that's your choice.    

Not a huge fan of the ending(s) but I do thnk IT makes for interesting conversation. 

Hell, before the IT thread got derailed, there was lots and lots of great dissection of in game content. 

If anything, it's part of the reason ME3's ending has become one of the most infamous things in gaming history. 

I guess that's something. 

And that's what forums should be about discourse and intresting conversations, like I said I personally take IT as my own headcannon. But I also, understand why other people don't and take the endings at face value. I get it. And I don't hate or want to belittle their opinions. Like you said if something creates a discussion on the forums should it be okay to talk about? The problem is you have people that only deal in black and whites and never see others opinions. 

Seconded.  We need to focus on the lasting significance of the problems--excuse me, questions--that this game poses to serious players.  The entire series leads up to some spectacularly potent moments that allow for the conclusion to shape and be shaped by them.  The power that Shepard wields--all the way up to the Decision Chamber--is a source of lasting intrigue for me.  If the Decision Chamber is an indoctrination attempt, the Reapers have used that power to fool Shepard.  The power, then, seems to be with the Intelligence/Starchild any way you look at it.

[TurianRebel212]

MattFini wrote...

TurianRebel212 wrote...

And that's what forums should be about discourse and intresting conversations, like I said I personally take IT as my own headcannon. But I also, understand why other people don't and take the endings at face value. I get it. And I don't hate or want to belittle their opinions. Like you said if something creates a discussion on the forums should it be okay to talk about? The problem is you have people that only deal in black and whites and never see others opinions. 

Agreed.

The funny thing is that all of the endings are, I think, meant to be symbolic (part of the reason they don't work for me - they feel pretentious). 

Shepard's swan dive is supposed to be Christ-like. (s)He grabs two pillars in order to 'take' control and must explode a tube in order to destroy the reapers. 

So one has to wonder if the endings were ever intended to be taken literally. I honestly don't think so. I believe the original idea behind the jungle planet was a failed attempt at symbolism.

Having said all that, it also seems like IT can fit. Sure, maybe it was unintentional at first but can people really deny that BioWare wasn't stoking the flames in the EC and Leviathan? Seemed like they were giving a shoutout to IT without confirming or denying. 

I can appreciate that even if I have issues with the ending - no matter the choice. 

Exactly. It's amazing the ending of a game can have so many diffrent avenues of understanding and meaning. It's really cool. And in terms of gaming history, I don't think it's been done. Religion and especially christianity was a major theme in ME but its also a theme that at times bioware didn't explore fully or as much as they could have. I like your interpretation of the swan dive. And the jungle planet was obviously a refrence to Adam and Eve but like you said it came off as pretentious, but at leas they tried. It's nice to have discussion about IT, the ending, the themes and stuff without it getting into a flame war or a 'I'm right, your wrong' situation         

[MattFini]

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

Seconded.  We need to focus on the lasting significance of the problems--excuse me, questions--that this game poses to serious players.  The entire series leads up to some spectacularly potent moments that allow for the conclusion to shape and be shaped by them.  The power that Shepard wields--all the way up to the Decision Chamber--is a source of lasting intrigue for me.  If the Decision Chamber is an indoctrination attempt, the Reapers have used that power to fool Shepard.  The power, then, seems to be with the Intelligence/Starchild any way you look at it.

That's what threw me off while playing Leviathan.

On one hand, it seemed to cement the idea that the StarChild should be taken at face value - a narrow-minded VI who is executing his programming the only way it knows how...

But then they go and have Shepard's mind get invaded by the Leviathan and purposely design the whole sequence to mirror the end meeting with StarChild -- suggesting that Shepard's mind could, in fact, be invaded again at the end of the game.

[GethPrimeMKII]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The indoctrination theory isn't an actual ending, it's just an interpretation from a bunch of fans who can't accept that BioWare just screwed up.

Also, IT threads are no longer allowed on the ME3 forum. You can discuss the IT in the IT group.

Its almost as if you're lying in wait all day just waiting for the word 'indoctrination' to appear somewhere on the forum.

[MattFini]

TurianRebel212 wrote...

It's nice to have discussion about IT, the ending, the themes and stuff without it getting into a flame war or a 'I'm right, your wrong' situation         

Yes sir!  Good to discuss the things that BioWare clearly intended to provoke discussion. Even better that it can happen without petty bickering.

Like I said, I'm NOT an IT'er although I was always interested in the theory and still am. 

[The Heretic of Time]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

The indoctrination theory isn't an actual ending, it's just an interpretation from a bunch of fans who can't accept that BioWare just screwed up.

Also, IT threads are no longer allowed on the ME3 forum. You can discuss the IT in the IT group.

Its almost as if you're lying in wait all day just waiting for the word 'indoctrination' to appear somewhere on the forum.

Not really. These pathetic  IT-in-diguise threads are quite easy to spot. It doesn't take much time or effort at all.

[vandalDX]

MattFini wrote...

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

Seconded.  We need to focus on the lasting significance of the problems--excuse me, questions--that this game poses to serious players.  The entire series leads up to some spectacularly potent moments that allow for the conclusion to shape and be shaped by them.  The power that Shepard wields--all the way up to the Decision Chamber--is a source of lasting intrigue for me.  If the Decision Chamber is an indoctrination attempt, the Reapers have used that power to fool Shepard.  The power, then, seems to be with the Intelligence/Starchild any way you look at it.

That's what threw me off while playing Leviathan.

On one hand, it seemed to cement the idea that the StarChild should be taken at face value - a narrow-minded VI who is executing his programming the only way it knows how...

But then they go and have Shepard's mind get invaded by the Leviathan and purposely design the whole sequence to mirror the end meeting with StarChild -- suggesting that Shepard's mind could, in fact, be invaded again at the end of the game.

The environment of the conversation with Leviathan was a very, very close mirror to the surroundings of the deep sea, too.  I took that on a couple levels:

The Leviathan used Shepard's immediate surroundings to redact a setting for the confrontation.

The Leviathan used people immediately crucial to the context to represent himself in that setting, and in that conversation.

The new direction of the Intelligence's conversation seems to be affected by this experience, not altered to reflect it.  Shepard's questions suggest this.

All of this enriches so much of the overall experience of Mass Effect 3, and the decisions the player has to make about the conclusion of the game, not as a part of it.  The level of attention that Bioware's developers put into allowing these scenes to reflect each other is impressive, at face value as well as representationally.

[GethPrimeMKII]

You're not necessarily discussing Indoctrination theory when you discuss indoctrination. Unless you forgot that, with or without that theory, indoctrination still plays a major role in Mass Effect.

[warblewobble]

Can someone explain to me why IT isn't allowed anymore? I've read references to the IT thread being shut down but I couldn't find it to see the moderator post. Is that topic really no longer allowed or are people just saying that because the thread was shut down for some other reason that they feel was an excuse to end it?

[Cecilia L]

MattFini wrote...

TurianRebel212 wrote...

It's nice to have discussion about IT, the ending, the themes and stuff without it getting into a flame war or a 'I'm right, your wrong' situation         

Yes sir!  Good to discuss the things that BioWare clearly intended to provoke discussion. Even better that it can happen without petty bickering.

Like I said, I'm NOT an IT'er although I was always interested in the theory and still am. 

Yes, nice that things almost have calmed down to a degree where we can all be civil. I have been an ITer since I first heard of it a week after ME3's release, but I respect other people's opinions and I can see how some like the endings at face value.

My reason to belive in the IT is pretty standard: I love Mass Effect, hate the ending and can't believe that Bioware has not got an ace up their sleeve (that there's a real, satisfying ending coming )

Despite all the dissapointment about the ending, though, it has made for the most interesting discussion topic in ages and I'm happy that the forum seems to be getting to the point where we can all be nice to each other while discussing and speculatin'

Modifié par Cecilia L, 24 janvier 2013 - 12:46 .

[MattFini]

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

The environment of the conversation with Leviathan was a very, very close mirror to the surroundings of the deep sea, too.  I took that on a couple levels:

The Leviathan used Shepard's immediate surroundings to redact a setting for the confrontation.

The Leviathan used people immediately crucial to the context to represent himself in that setting, and in that conversation.

The new direction of the Intelligence's conversation seems to be affected by this experience, not altered to reflect it.  Shepard's questions suggest this.

All of this enriches so much of the overall experience of Mass Effect 3, and the decisions the player has to make about the conclusion of the game, not as a part of it.  The level of attention that Bioware's developers put into allowing these scenes to reflect each other is impressive, at face value as well as representationally.

Interesting. You're saying that it's because of Shepard's encounter with Leviathan that the StarChild confrontation follows suit in the same way? 

I like the Leviathan DLC quite a bit ... each time I play it I catch something new. And this conversation is making me want to play it again.

[vandalDX]

warblewobble wrote...

Can someone explain to me why IT isn't allowed anymore? I've read references to the IT thread being shut down but I couldn't find it to see the moderator post. Is that topic really no longer allowed or are people just saying that because the thread was shut down for some other reason that they feel was an excuse to end it?

There were three long threads that officially espoused the IT.  Last week, Chris Priestly shut down the Mark III thread, and any subsequent discussion of IT on a specific level has been discouraged.  My guess is that the abuses of certain users became more of a headache for the moderators than it was worth. 

[The Heretic of Time]

GethPrimeMKII wrote...

You're not necessarily discussing Indoctrination theory when you discuss indoctrination. Unless you forgot that, with or without that theory, indoctrination still plays a major role in Mass Effect.

While your statement is true, it's still obvious that the OP was about the IT and not just indoctrination in general.

[MattFini]

warblewobble wrote...

Can someone explain to me why IT isn't allowed anymore? I've read references to the IT thread being shut down but I couldn't find it to see the moderator post. Is that topic really no longer allowed or are people just saying that because the thread was shut down for some other reason that they feel was an excuse to end it?

I could be wrong but I believe that IT thread became a spamfest. 

I think there was one dude essentially bumping and bumping it for dozens of pages. 

[Cecilia L]

Have they still not fixed the Leviathan music? Anyone who knows?

[MattFini]

Cecilia L wrote...

Yes, nice that things almost have calmed down to a degree where we can all be civil. I have been an ITer since I first heard of it a week after ME3's release, but I respect other people's opinions and I can see how some like the endings at face value.

My reason to belive in the IT is pretty standard: I love Mass Effect, hate the ending and can't believe that Bioware has not got an ace up their sleeve (that there's a real, satisfying ending coming )

Despite all the dissapointment about the ending, though, it has made for the most interesting discussion topic in ages and I'm happy that the forum seems to be getting to the point where we can all be nice to each other while discussing and speculatin'

Yeah. I have to admit, if the IT theory was somehow true, I wouldn't be upset at all. 

Provided there was additional content en route. 

I have a hard time accepting the ending in any form because I don't really like the goofy symbolism that goes with the three choices - although I do love Lance Henriksen's narration so much in the EC destroy that I'm almost cool with it. 

[TurianRebel212]

warblewobble wrote...

Can someone explain to me why IT isn't allowed anymore? I've read references to the IT thread being shut down but I couldn't find it to see the moderator post. Is that topic really no longer allowed or are people just saying that because the thread was shut down for some other reason that they feel was an excuse to end it?

I don't know I can only assume it's because the climate it created or it was used for spamming or something. It's a little sad tho. But IT or not, indoctrination is a major element in ME as I've stated before and someone else stated, you don't need IT to talk about indoctrination. For this thread I don't see why it would get locked down, but I'm not employed by EA or BioWare, so IDK 

[vandalDX]

MattFini wrote...

Interesting. You're saying that it's because of Shepard's encounter with Leviathan that the StarChild confrontation follows suit in the same way? 

I like the Leviathan DLC quite a bit ... each time I play it I catch something new. And this conversation is making me want to play it again.

I guess the lasting impression that Leviathan made on me was that the Mass Effect universe is far, far vaster than Shepard's relationships and decisions--it's about defining life as something beyond the assumed.  Synthesis works for me on this level, as it champions the cause of life outside of discussion of its "forms" (snythetic vs. organic) in much the same way as Battlestar Galactica.  

Shepard's power from a player's standpoint is the same kind of illusion that indoctrination would provide for Reaper's subject in this contet.  He connects to an ancient presence in the universe, and his (or her, in my case) role can be either 1) acknowledged by the Reapers as worthy of indoctrination, or 2) diminished in the light of these new revelations.  Either way: it's a staggering, gutsy, and profound way to wrap up the games.  I'll never tire of its challenge.

[warblewobble]

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

warblewobble wrote...

Can someone explain to me why IT isn't allowed anymore? I've read references to the IT thread being shut down but I couldn't find it to see the moderator post. Is that topic really no longer allowed or are people just saying that because the thread was shut down for some other reason that they feel was an excuse to end it?

There were three long threads that officially espoused the IT.  Last week, Chris Priestly shut down the Mark III thread, and any subsequent discussion of IT on a specific level has been discouraged.  My guess is that the abuses of certain users became more of a headache for the moderators than it was worth. 

Ah. Much obliged. I'd actually read the Mark II thread for some time (was only lurking then) and found it really interesting. It's a shame if people can't discuss it w/o things getting heated. I don't understand why someone offering a different interpretation of the events of the story would make people angry.

[DiebytheSword]

I'm not 100% sold on IT, but I think it is on to something, that elements from the theory might be correct. Its great to see people talking about it instead of being absolutist about it.

[TurianRebel212]

DiebytheSword wrote...

I'm not 100% sold on IT, but I think it is on to something, that elements from the theory might be correct. Its great to see people talking about it instead of being absolutist about it.

Yes it is nice. Yes it is. We're all here, hopefullly, because we really like or love ME, that should be enough of a reason to be respectfull of each others opinions. 

Yes ME3 had it's faluts. Yes the endings are not great. Yes its controversional. But ME is an amazing series and I love it and don't want to let go.  

 :(

[Bill Casey]

warblewobble wrote...

Can someone explain to me why IT isn't allowed anymore? I've read references to the IT thread being shut down but I couldn't find it to see the moderator post. Is that topic really no longer allowed or are people just saying that because the thread was shut down for some other reason that they feel was an excuse to end it?

People started using the IT thread as a chatroom...
To talk about things like what was on television...


It got really bad when Chris went on vacation...
If I remember correctly, he cited BansheeOwnage as having 3,000 some odd posts in Mark 3 alone...

There's another IT Mega Thread in the IT group, which is, you guessed it, being used like a chat room...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 24 janvier 2013 - 01:15 .

[MattFini]

valhallaVANDAL wrote...

I guess the lasting impression that Leviathan made on me was that the Mass Effect universe is far, far vaster than Shepard's relationships and decisions--it's about defining life as something beyond the assumed.  Synthesis works for me on this level, as it champions the cause of life outside of discussion of its "forms" (snythetic vs. organic) in much the same way as Battlestar Galactica.  

Shepard's power from a player's standpoint is the same kind of illusion that indoctrination would provide for Reaper's subject in this contet.  He connects to an ancient presence in the universe, and his (or her, in my case) role can be either 1) acknowledged by the Reapers as worthy of indoctrination, or 2) diminished in the light of these new revelations.  Either way: it's a staggering, gutsy, and profound way to wrap up the games.  I'll never tire of its challenge.

I sort of took it the same way. At least the reinforcemet that Shepard was just a drop in the proverbial bucket. We had this sense throughout the trilogy, but Leviathan seemed to widen the gap even further.

Although I have to admit, it wasn't until the end of Leviathan and how closely it mirrored the confrontation with StarChild that I really started to wonder whether or not IT was valid.

And I'm willing to bet that was deliberate. Whether or not that was just the writers having fun or encouraging fans to keep the debate going - I don't know. 

But if I look at the endings literally, Leviathan also told me just how broken the Reaper logic was and how it would really be best for everyone to just destroy the damn things once and for all.