183 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

It's hard to imagine what exactly might just be the apex of evolution or how it could or would be achieved?

Evolution, by definition, has no apex. That's another thing that's wrong with Synthesis.

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]

IF none of the choices favors the Starchild, then why does he decide to cooperate? The Reapers had won. IT makes more sense to me than the alternative.

[/quote]

The crucilbe forces the issue and relies on Shep/organic to make a choice. Thats why its so important to understand the reasoning behind the choices as they affect the ending/resolution.

The IT tries to force the issues with the help of it's own enemy, as the reason NOT to pick other choices. IT tries to select the canon for the choices, but doesn't include any more explanatiion for the preferred IT choice AS canon.

i.e. , self deception, the very basis of indoctrination. You cannot use indoctrination to end/resist indoctrination.

[draconian139]

@Wayning there's people that interpret the ending through an IT lens(or one similar) yet don't think that destroy is the best choice. I prefer refuse and Math Effect prefers synthesis and has sensible reasons for doing so.

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

It's hard to imagine what exactly might just be the apex of evolution or how it could or would be achieved?

Evolution, by definition, has no apex. That's another thing that's wrong with Synthesis.

Just because synthesis isn't the apex transision doesn't mean its not an advance in evolution. There is no 'best' in evolution, other than it's continuation. Synthesis is merely one aspect of it's probability in an endless universe of possibility.

I suppose it's just a matter of who benifits/learns/advances/survives better/follows the rules of evolution.

I wonder why folks gets in such a hurry to 'grow up'..lol

[Wayning_Star]

draconian139 wrote...

@Wayning there's people that interpret the ending through an IT lens(or one similar) yet don't think that destroy is the best choice. I prefer refuse and Math Effect prefers synthesis and has sensible reasons for doing so.

I kind of got my own IT theory, but it's so weird I gave up on it..lol

[BleedingUranium]

@Wayning_Star

IT doesn't "try to select the canon for the choices". We didn't come up with the idea because we like Destroy, Destroy is simply the natural choice in IT. And on that note, IT wasn't invented by fans either.

This video may help explain.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 24 janvier 2013 - 03:10 .

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

IF none of the choices favors the Starchild, then why does he decide to cooperate? The Reapers had won. IT makes more sense to me than the alternative.

The crucilbe forces the issue and relies on Shep/organic to make a choice. Thats why its so important to understand the reasoning behind the choices as they affect the ending/resolution.

The IT tries to force the issues with the help of it's own enemy, as the reason NOT to pick other choices. IT tries to select the canon for the choices, but doesn't include any more explanatiion for the preferred IT choice AS canon.

i.e. , self deception, the very basis of indoctrination. You cannot use indoctrination to end/resist indoctrination.

How does the Crucible force the issue? Shepard was losing consciousness and going to bleed out. The Reapers had won.

Shepard picking destroy WON'T cure him of indoctrination. It merely demonstrates some degree of resistance to it's influence. Resistance which would only be temporary.

The explanation for IT being preferred is that it makes more sense.

Modifié par KingZayd, 24 janvier 2013 - 03:11 .

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Wayning_Star

IT doesn't "try to select the canon for the choices". We didn't come up with the idea because we like Destroy, Destroy is simply the natural choice in IT.

This video may help explain.

no, the IT 'depends' on the IT as canon. Not a good plan, as it's not part of the actual series of events, and unfortunately, super imposed upon the 'ethos' of the ME trilogy. It depends on the catalyst to be other than a construct, more of a figure head. Organics rules the roost in the MEU, not the catalyst/intelligence.

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Wayning_Star

IT doesn't "try to select the canon for the choices". We didn't come up with the idea because we like Destroy, Destroy is simply the natural choice in IT.

This video may help explain.

no, the IT 'depends' on the IT as canon. Not a good plan, as it's not part of the actual series of events, and unfortunately, super imposed upon the 'ethos' of the ME trilogy. It depends on the catalyst to be other than a construct, more of a figure head. Organics rules the roost in the MEU, not the catalyst/intelligence.

Since when? Sovereign tells us the opposite has been true for a very long time.

[draconian139]

There's enough inconsistencies in the end that its a horribly botched job or IT is canon. I prefer to just pretend that its canon, I don't think it matters that much since I think future games will either be set in the same timeframe as the current ones or be prequels though. If they actually plan on doing a sequel they pretty much have to use IT and release post-ending dlc...well that or canonize one of the main three endings. I'm not sure which of those choices would be better since either would anger a section of the fan base.

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

IF none of the choices favors the Starchild, then why does he decide to cooperate? The Reapers had won. IT makes more sense to me than the alternative.

The crucilbe forces the issue and relies on Shep/organic to make a choice. Thats why its so important to understand the reasoning behind the choices as they affect the ending/resolution.

The IT tries to force the issues with the help of it's own enemy, as the reason NOT to pick other choices. IT tries to select the canon for the choices, but doesn't include any more explanatiion for the preferred IT choice AS canon.

i.e. , self deception, the very basis of indoctrination. You cannot use indoctrination to end/resist indoctrination.

How does the Crucible force the issue? Shepard was losing consciousness and going to bleed out. The Reapers had won.

Shepard picking destroy WON'T cure him of indoctrination. It merely demonstrates some degree of resistance to it's influence. Resistance which would only be temporary.

The explanation for IT being preferred is that it makes more sense.

Shep was never ON the citadel, Shep was on the ground 'dreaming' of things to come up top with the concept of the catalyst, posed as a human child in mind. It's all mental, as the catalyst is 'the intelligence', not just a computer in the flesh. It could be in another demesion for all Shep knows. The symbolistic choices slides provide a mental picture of desion making processes. Shep couldn't handle direct contact with such a powerful mentality physically. Direct control would look like a pop corn explosion compared to that interface.

We're talking 'galactus' here.. a planet eater type being of immense energy. Add the crucible energy taps to that, you come up with the choices menu..all played out in the minds eye, or a reasonable facsimile.

How could Shep body be on the ground, or even on the citadel (breath scene) if it were blown up with the destroy( or any other ) choices?

[MattFini]

@Wayning_Star:

Since you seem to be opposed to IT, I'd be curious to get your take on how/why the Leviathan ending so tightly mirrors the decision chamber ending of the game.

As we know that the Leviathan have invaded Shep's consciousness ... it's curious as to why the scene plays so similarly to the finale.

Writers just having fun? Stirring the pot? Something else?

As I fall somewhere between an IT'er and a non-IT'er, I'm curious to see what you made of it

[Wayning_Star]

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

@Wayning_Star

IT doesn't "try to select the canon for the choices". We didn't come up with the idea because we like Destroy, Destroy is simply the natural choice in IT.

This video may help explain.

no, the IT 'depends' on the IT as canon. Not a good plan, as it's not part of the actual series of events, and unfortunately, super imposed upon the 'ethos' of the ME trilogy. It depends on the catalyst to be other than a construct, more of a figure head. Organics rules the roost in the MEU, not the catalyst/intelligence.

Since when? Sovereign tells us the opposite has been true for a very long time.

time is key, as that isn't a constent when regarding 'existence'.

[BleedingUranium]

KingZayd wrote...

Shepard picking destroy WON'T cure him of indoctrination. It merely demonstrates some degree of resistance to it's influence. Resistance which would only be temporary.

We don't know that. Shepard is famous for doing what was thought to be impossible. Given how stories work, I think it's likely that he beat it, permanently and completely.

[Cecilia L]

Oooh this thread is too interesting not to be locked soon.

[MattFini]

Cecilia L wrote...

Oooh this thread is too interesting not to be locked soon.

We're keeping it civil AND on topic for that very reason and hoping for the best.  

[Wayning_Star]

MattFini wrote...

@Wayning_Star:

Since you seem to be opposed to IT, I'd be curious to get your take on how/why the Leviathan ending so tightly mirrors the decision chamber ending of the game.

As we know that the Leviathan have invaded Shep's consciousness ... it's curious as to why the scene plays so similarly to the finale.

Writers just having fun? Stirring the pot? Something else?

As I fall somewhere between an IT'er and a non-IT'er, I'm curious to see what you made of it

The leviathan invented the intelligence and it invented the catalyst. Why wouldn't the Leviathan communicate as the catalyst? I've always assumed that the indoctrination technique were just an abuse of a communication ability. Just turn up the gain and increase the duration.. brain fry. Just like old CB radios can be fried by high output from 'superior' transmitters..

[BleedingUranium]

ME3 and half of ME2 exist to teach you that organics vs synthetics isn't a thing, not anymore than organics vs organics or synthetics vs synthetics. You're supposed to learn that there's no meaningful difference between organic and synthetic life.

And that's another reason you're supposed to realise that the kid is full of crap.

[Wayning_Star]

If reapers were so superior, why would they need organics? Why would synthetic catalsyt needs organics? IF it believes in chaos, why didn't it just wipe out organic life and go on with its supposed intent?

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

ME3 and half of ME2 exist to teach you that organics vs synthetics isn't a thing, not anymore than organics vs organics or synthetics vs synthetics. You're supposed to learn that there's no meaningful difference between organic and synthetic life.

And that's another reason you're supposed to realise that the kid is full of crap.

unfortunately, it's not "Just about us', or Shep as to decide the fate of some future universe of divergent life?

Shall we just assume we cannot save everyone, who ever that may be?

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

ME3 and half of ME2 exist to teach you that organics vs synthetics isn't a thing, not anymore than organics vs organics or synthetics vs synthetics. You're supposed to learn that there's no meaningful difference between organic and synthetic life.

And that's another reason you're supposed to realise that the kid is full of crap.

unfortunately, it's not "Just about us', or Shep as to decide the fate of some future universe of divergent life?

Shall we just assume we cannot save everyone, who ever that may be?

...what?

[masster blaster]

HiddenInWar wrote...

I think I would have a better understanding of where IT stands now if I finished leviathan. Does it hint at anything regarding it or help its confirmation/denial?

It helps a lot.

1. Leviathan got inside Shepard's head with out breaking a sweet. Which means Harbinger can get inside Shepard's head if it wanted to.

2. Leviathan takes the forms of Ann, and two other people Shepard has seen in the past. Each person is created from Shepard's memorys, and you can see similaritys of things Shepard has seen at the end.

3. Leviathan' made up a whole scene inside Shepard's head, and Shepard is not "inside" the under water Atlas when Shepard is seen in the new scene.

4. Leviathan said the Reapers have profected their way of Indoctrination. If what you see in Leviathan at the end is now were near the Reapers way of Indoctrination, then how do you know what is real, and what is not?

5. Leviathan again can create object's from Shepard's memorys Bryson's lab table can be seen at the end of Leviathan, yet your not at Bryson's lab.

6. Leviathan didn't tell us where the Catalyst is at/ the intellegence, yet some how a lesser organic races found out that the Citadel is the catalyst, and the Leviathans didn't even tell us before hand.

7. Harbinger is the first true Reaper, but how did the intellence control Harbinger? We are lead to believe it controls Harbinger, yet Harbinger is organic, and Synthetic. The catalyst is Synthetic alone. How can it claim it controls the Reapers, if it can't have the power to Indoctrinate the Reapers?

But I am getting ahead of myself, but ya Leviathan is a huge clue for IT, and the achivemnts were funny to us because some people call us those names.

[draconian139]

They could need organics for several reasons. To me the most likely reason is for reproductive purposes, from what we've seen organics seem to be necessary to create Reapers.

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

ME3 and half of ME2 exist to teach you that organics vs synthetics isn't a thing, not anymore than organics vs organics or synthetics vs synthetics. You're supposed to learn that there's no meaningful difference between organic and synthetic life.

And that's another reason you're supposed to realise that the kid is full of crap.

unfortunately, it's not "Just about us', or Shep as to decide the fate of some future universe of divergent life?

Shall we just assume we cannot save everyone, who ever that may be?

...what?

slow down, think about, it'll come to you..lol (no game cheat codes here

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

IF none of the choices favors the Starchild, then why does he decide to cooperate? The Reapers had won. IT makes more sense to me than the alternative.

The crucilbe forces the issue and relies on Shep/organic to make a choice. Thats why its so important to understand the reasoning behind the choices as they affect the ending/resolution.

The IT tries to force the issues with the help of it's own enemy, as the reason NOT to pick other choices. IT tries to select the canon for the choices, but doesn't include any more explanatiion for the preferred IT choice AS canon.

i.e. , self deception, the very basis of indoctrination. You cannot use indoctrination to end/resist indoctrination.

How does the Crucible force the issue? Shepard was losing consciousness and going to bleed out. The Reapers had won.

Shepard picking destroy WON'T cure him of indoctrination. It merely demonstrates some degree of resistance to it's influence. Resistance which would only be temporary.

The explanation for IT being preferred is that it makes more sense.

Shep was never ON the citadel, Shep was on the ground 'dreaming' of things to come up top with the concept of the catalyst, posed as a human child in mind. It's all mental, as the catalyst is 'the intelligence', not just a computer in the flesh. It could be in another demesion for all Shep knows. The symbolistic choices slides provide a mental picture of desion making processes. Shep couldn't handle direct contact with such a powerful mentality physically. Direct control would look like a pop corn explosion compared to that interface.

We're talking 'galactus' here.. a planet eater type being of immense energy. Add the crucible energy taps to that, you come up with the choices menu..all played out in the minds eye, or a reasonable facsimile.

How could Shep body be on the ground, or even on the citadel (breath scene) if it were blown up with the destroy( or any other ) choices?

an artificial intelligence is still an intelligence. Now you're talking about a psychic, possibly metaphysical entity that was somehow built by the Leviathans? How does that make more sense than indoctrination theory again?

As for this: " Shep couldn't handle direct contact with such a powerful mentality physically." again how does that even make sense? Why would a powerful "mentality" have a physical impact on Shepard?

Modifié par KingZayd, 24 janvier 2013 - 03:40 .