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[warblewobble]

BleedingUranium wrote...

warblewobble wrote...

Per what Uranium wrote, I have trouble seeing refuse as succumbing to indoctrination. I can see Zayd's point about it maybe still leading to Shepard playing into the reapers' hands (in terms of what's going on in reality) but I have trouble seeing that as bowing to their influence- at least in Shepard's own mind.

However, Zayd's intepretation would be a truly insidious form of indoctrination indeed. Shepard summons all his/her willpower to fight off the reapers w/o realizing that he/she is doing so precisely within the expected parameters that they've constructed. Very sinister, I have to admit.

The latter would be a great trap, yes, but not indoctrination because Shepard's goal is still to kill them. So yes, it's possible to interpret Destroy as a trap, but not indoctrination.

I meant that I saw it as possible to interpret Refuse as a trap w/o indoctrination. Guess I wasn't entirely clear there.

[BleedingUranium]

warblewobble wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

warblewobble wrote...

Per what Uranium wrote, I have trouble seeing refuse as succumbing to indoctrination. I can see Zayd's point about it maybe still leading to Shepard playing into the reapers' hands (in terms of what's going on in reality) but I have trouble seeing that as bowing to their influence- at least in Shepard's own mind.

However, Zayd's intepretation would be a truly insidious form of indoctrination indeed. Shepard summons all his/her willpower to fight off the reapers w/o realizing that he/she is doing so precisely within the expected parameters that they've constructed. Very sinister, I have to admit.

The latter would be a great trap, yes, but not indoctrination because Shepard's goal is still to kill them. So yes, it's possible to interpret Destroy as a trap, but not indoctrination.

I meant that I saw it as possible to interpret Refuse as a trap w/o indoctrination. Guess I wasn't entirely clear there.

Ah, my bad

I suppose it could be, but "Refuse" isn't really a choice in the same way the others are. While it may be one of the only times the player has the option to do nothing, doing nothing is in-universe something anyone could do at anytime.

If Refuse was somehow an actual object that you interact with, like the others, then being a trap would be more likely. And it's fairly clear starbinger's not happy if you don't do anything.

[warblewobble]

Oh, I personally see refuse acceptable as both a rejection of indoctrination and a wrench in the plan of the reapers.

(Again, if taking things on IT. It's strange that I've entrenched myself in a discussion on it since I like IT but generally take things literally. Whatever.)

That was pretty much the sum of my original post- that maybe people were too hard on the refuse option and that it could have a place in IT theory as a rejection of indoctrination. (I feel a lot of people view it as a 'screw you' to people who complained about the ending.)

I just thought Zayd had an interesting argument, is all.

[BleedingUranium]

Fair enough. I think if Shepard refused (in IT) he could still be saved, but by an outside force helping him wake up, like the Rachni queen.

Here and here.

[MattFini]

Kyrene wrote...

The thing is, most people were so used to Shepard being the infallible hero by the start of ME3, they could not (and seem to still not be able to) come to terms with the fact that s/he (and even the whole galaxy) might die at the end of the game. Even now there are still whole threads and a fan-made mod to force a "happy ending" on the ending we did get.

That is certainly an undeniable sentiment around here.

And while I'm not big on the endings, my problem isn't that Shepard can die in most of them. Going into Priority: Earth the first time, I was HOPING for lots of dramatic sacrifices. I was hoping for Virmire x 10.

If Shepard survived, I was hoping there'd be other unavoidable casualties: choose sending some of your team up against hopeless odds as a means of buying time, etc. 

My issue with the ending(s) is the glut of questions they raise (many of which are discussed here) and don't answer. I believe that's why IT became an acceptable theory to a good chunk of people ... and, really, there's enough evidence in the game (some of it far-reaching, some of it spot-on) for it to be a legitimate discussion.

My ideal DLC would be an epilogue where you lead a team (led by a crew member of your choice) to search for Shepard on the Citadel. It could finally explain away the secrets of the Keepers as we search for the truth and the end would result in either rescuing Shep, conversing with CatalystShep one last time or maybe giving him a eulogy (for the disintegrated Synth Sheps). 

I feel like an epilogue like this would give the game the last bit of closure it needs, provided it could actually answer a lot of the questions people have.

Though I know this is unlikely. 

[KyreneZA]

MattFini wrote...

My issue with the ending(s) is the glut of questions they raise (many of which are discussed here) and don't answer. I believe that's why IT became an acceptable theory to a good chunk of people ... and, really, there's enough evidence in the game (some of it far-reaching, some of it spot-on) for it to be a legitimate discussion.

I hear you. I have only recently finished digging up enough meta-gaming knowledge to even begin to make sense of the endings in my own playthroughs. And I'm still holding off on playing those endings until the DLC cycle for ME3 has ended, just in case what BioWare produces (like your wishful thinking for instance) contradicts my house of cards. And my final headcanon only works if this cycle is wiped out anyway, due to all the evidence I've collected pointing that way.

Pretty grim, but fortunately I'm not adverse to sad/bittersweet endings myself, or endings that actually happen off-camera. I'm content that even though in my playthroughs Shepard didn't stop the Reapers, the united galaxy did enough to allow the next cycle to beat them with ease.

[dorktainian]

"The Citadel retains many secrets. Secrets created by the Reapers and it is the final resting place of Shepard who sacrificed himself to save the galaxy... Or did he? Find out the truth about the Citadel and Shepard's fate in the final DLC! Do you dare to face the Truth?"

err....

[Applepie_Svk]

dorktainian wrote...

"The Citadel retains many secrets. Secrets created by the Reapers and it is the final resting place of Shepard who sacrificed himself to save the galaxy... Or did he? Find out the truth about the Citadel and Shepard's fate in the final DLC! Do you dare to face the Truth?"

err....

remember... BioWare´ve never lied

[Chris Priestly]

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