268 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

esper wrote...

Why is it non-RPG?
I actually agree that is should be done like that. It doesn't have to be only major quest ending, it could be obstacle based so that each time we cleared and obstacle either by talk or force we get the same amount of experience.

Some people think rewards should be immediate. I'm not good at advocating it, because I honestly don't quite get the argument myself. 

[Xewaka]

esper wrote...
Why is it non-RPG?
I actually agree that is should be done like that. It doesn't have to be only major quest ending, it could be obstacle based so that each time we cleared and obstacle either by talk or force we get the same amount of experience.

Outside of Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, I can't think of cRPGs where there wasn't an inmediate XP reward for killing. Sometimes it might be bundled up at the end of the encounter, but even then, it is inmediate. A non-insignificant portion of cRPG players have not tried PnP RPGs, and thus inmediate XP reward has become expected. Even among the people who have tried PnP RPGs, most people have gone with D&D, which is one of the very few PnP RPGs in the market that still features murder XP, and even then, it is subservient to GM fiat. The thing is, among the large PnP market, the D&D murder XP model is the exception, rather than the rule. Nevertheless, I can understand, if not agree with, people who complain about exclusively objective-based XP: They prefer their Skinner Box more immediate.

Modifié par Xewaka, 24 janvier 2013 - 06:35 .

[esper]

Xewaka wrote...

esper wrote...
Why is it non-RPG?
I actually agree that is should be done like that. It doesn't have to be only major quest ending, it could be obstacle based so that each time we cleared and obstacle either by talk or force we get the same amount of experience.

Outside of Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, I can't think of a single computer RPG where there wasn't an inmediate XP reward for killing. Sometimes it might be bundled up at the end of the encounter, but even then, it is inmediate. A non-insignificant portion of cRPG players have not tried PnP RPGs, and thus inmediate XP reward has become expected. Even among the people who have tried PnP RPGs, most people have gone with D&D, which is one of the very few PnP RPGs in the market that still features murder XP, and even then, it is subservient to GM fiat. The thing is, among the large PnP market, the D&D murder XP model is the exception, rather than the rule. Nevertheless, I can understand, if not agree with, people who complain about exclusively objective-based XP: They prefer their Skinner Box more immediate.

Hmm...
That is actually a bit sad.
But I still think might obstacle thing would work.
Clear the encounter via talk - experience
Clear it via combat - experience.
Everyones happy and one particular path isn't favoured any longer.

[Wulfram]

Icesong wrote...

You bothered with the accented e but messed up on the s? Not being a grammar ****, just funny.

I'd complain about french spelling, but I don't think English people are really allowed to complain about foreign spellings.

My favorite character trait is stoicism. This can come across as desensitized. I hope in the variety of better reactions they're looking into that the option to not react will be among them.

Stoicism is good, but for it to really work the game needs to acknowledge that there's something to be stoic about.

[Tootles FTW]

I'm just preferential to a PC that expresses more emotion rather than less. I'm used to too many PC's being stone-faced hard-****es, I actually thought ME3 Shepard was refreshing.

I love talking my way out of a conflict if I can, but a lot of time that can feel anticlimactic in how it's handled. The very rare encounters where talking yourself out of a confrontation isn't a matter of "choose the bright blue/bright red dialogue option" can be quite tense, though, and I'd like to see more of this.

[Todd23]

Hi my name is Ryan wrote...

I agree OP. In DA3 Bioware should make it so that every time your party slaughters a group of mooks there's an hour long unskippable cutscene where the PC hams it up about what a monster they've become. This cutscene will of course be all auto dialogue so as to keep the FLOW™ of the scene going.

Thank you! I greatly appreciate it.  

[In Exile]

Tootles FTW wrote...

I'm just preferential to a PC that expresses more emotion rather than less. I'm used to too many PC's being stone-faced hard-****es, I actually thought ME3 Shepard was refreshing.

I love talking my way out of a conflict if I can, but a lot of time that can feel anticlimactic in how it's handled. The very rare encounters where talking yourself out of a confrontation isn't a matter of "choose the bright blue/bright red dialogue option" can be quite tense, though, and I'd like to see more of this.

I think someone mentioned the ME3 downside of it - how they handled emotion for Shepard was.. bad.

[Steppenwolf]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

We are exploring ways to allow the player to better react in a variety of ways to big events.

Has the fallback of ultimately "You can only select these reactions at the times that we allow you to" with the benefit of "At least for these choices, you're given a bit more flexibility in how you react."

Not a perfect solution, and still being investigated, but it is something that I think is a good thing to investigate.

Could you use dialogue choices before and after an emotional incident as flags to gradually change the PC's tone? Like for instance after Hawke's mother dies in DA2; had you been selecting primarily nice and/or sarcastic dialogue but started going to aggressive/angry responses after she dies then Hawke would slowly become more angry in all situations.
I think that would really make the voiced PC worth it. It's something BioWare hasn't done yet but I've been wanting to see it done for a long while. In ME3 I felt angrier about Cerberus constantly undercutting me than Shepard did because he/she would basically have one or two angry things to say but then go right back to unemotional-Shepard.

In Exile wrote...

Tootles FTW wrote...

I'm
just preferential to a PC that expresses more emotion rather than less.
I'm used to too many PC's being stone-faced hard-****es, I actually
thought ME3 Shepard was refreshing.

I love talking my way out of a
conflict if I can, but a lot of time that can feel anticlimactic in how
it's handled. The very rare encounters where talking yourself out of a
confrontation isn't a matter of "choose the bright blue/bright red
dialogue option" can be quite tense, though, and I'd like to see more of
this.

I think someone mentioned the ME3 downside of it - how they handled emotion for Shepard was.. bad.

They basically forced emotions on us that weren't consistent or prompted. If I'm playing a real hard case Shepard forcing me to have nightmares over one dead kid and get all mopey in every act is not handling emotion well. And it's especially annoying when, like I said, Shepard just goes right back to unemotional-mode immediately after.

Modifié par BasilKarlo, 24 janvier 2013 - 07:50 .

[legbamel]

How would random encounters with, say, groups of bandits while traveling be handled, or would they just be removed entireky? I would be fine with a hybrid system that had smaller encounters give XP by the body left lying and quests with XP for resolution, whether by stabbity murder knife or other means.

To play devil's advocate, the PC's experience in combat does increase with every fight/kill. The trick is to male other ways to earn that XP so that a resolutely charming or diplomatic PC still levels up at approximately the same rate as Ser Hacknslash.

[AlanC9]

Xewaka wrote...
Outside of Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, I can't think of cRPGs where there wasn't an inmediate XP reward for killing.

Besides ME2 and ME3, obviously.

There are also learn-by-doing systems (Morrowind, etc.) which don't have XP at all.

[Fredward]

I'm confused. Is this thread really suggesting adding choice to an RPG?

[addiction21]

AlanC9 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Outside of Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, I can't think of cRPGs where there wasn't an inmediate XP reward for killing.

Besides ME2 and ME3, obviously.

There are also learn-by-doing systems (Morrowind, etc.) which don't have XP at all.

DA2 waits till the combat is finished

[nightscrawl]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

We are exploring ways to allow the player to better react in a variety of ways to big events.

Has the fallback of ultimately "You can only select these reactions at the times that we allow you to" with the benefit of "At least for these choices, you're given a bit more flexibility in how you react."

Not a perfect solution, and still being investigated, but it is something that I think is a good thing to investigate.

Certainly better than nothing at all.

[Sister Goldring]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

We are exploring ways to allow the player to better react in a variety of ways to big events.

Has the fallback of ultimately "You can only select these reactions at the times that we allow you to" with the benefit of "At least for these choices, you're given a bit more flexibility in how you react."

Not a perfect solution, and still being investigated, but it is something that I think is a good thing to investigate.

I am really pleased to read this.  Increasing my ability to shape my character's response to important events in a manner that permits reactivity from the game is something I find very exciting as a player.  I'm really happy to find that this is an area that Bioware is focusing on (in some fashion) for DA3.  I can honestly say that I have been impressed with the little bits of information about the title that have been shared with the public so far.  I can't wait to get my hands on the game.  

[The Six Path of Pain]

If they make an option to make your character more sympathetic then yeah,that would be a great feature.

[Ambivalent]

Perhaps having a trait alike system like Fallouts may help.

You want your PC to be sensitive? Pick sensitive trait and be emo.
You want your PC to be ruthless? Pick Postal-guy trait and ****** on corpses while listening to Cannibal Corpse.
A shocked PC that is traumatised over killing? Sure.
A "doesn't care" PC that acts like it is just a regular day's work? Why not? 

Same can go for NPCs. A secret trait system just like the PC gets.

Some NPCs care about companion losses or PC's morality while others just care about mission. Some NPCs can provoke PC to be rude/heartless while others only supports if PC is kind enough.

And if the action these NPCs dislike continues or if the damage already done they can leave us, try to assassinate us, join our enemy or simply become Alistair'ised.(These were already in games though but could be more detailed)

I know Bioware's RPGs are not and should not be that simple but with more detail this can work.

PS: For example looting dead bodies or checking inside a container should count as bad action. Only a few games implement that. I can't even remember if looting over a dead body counted as bad in any game.

Modifié par Nabyroth, 24 janvier 2013 - 10:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlanC9 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Outside of Vampire the Masquerade: Redemption and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, I can't think of cRPGs where there wasn't an inmediate XP reward for killing.

Besides ME2 and ME3, obviously.

There are also learn-by-doing systems (Morrowind, etc.) which don't have XP at all.

Some Japanese games, such as strategy/RPGs, will go with post-mission reward systems as well.

There was a Zone of the Enders game for Game Boy Advance, I believe, that had enough RPG elements to count as an RPG of sorts (choosable dialogue, branching storylines, character customization) while having only end-mission rewards. Instead of XP you got money, which you used to buy more gadgets and options for your mecha.

More recently, XCOM has a blend: you do get individual XP for killing or other actions, but you also get group-wide XP at the end of missions. In pleny of MMO's, XP-by-killing can be relatively rare or minimal, and instead XP-from-quests is the predominant means of gaining XP. In some CoD games with multiplayer player progression, XP can also be gained from achievements: a kill might net you 50 xp, but falling 1000 ft will get you a parachutist achievement worth 1000 xp.


It certainly isn't as common, but there are plenty of other level up system elements in which you can level up characters without XP-per-kill.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

We are exploring ways to allow the player to better react in a variety of ways to big events.

Has the fallback of ultimately "You can only select these reactions at the times that we allow you to" with the benefit of "At least for these choices, you're given a bit more flexibility in how you react."

Not a perfect solution, and still being investigated, but it is something that I think is a good thing to investigate.

The design goal should be to minimise the number of times the PC is shown to have any sort of reaction that wasn't selected by the player.

[Direwolf0294]

I want my character to be able to write depressing poetry about the futility of life inbetween battles.

In all seriousness though, I wouldn't mind if we were allowed to have our character get a bit hung up on all the death and destruction they cause, so long as it's our choice. I hated how they forced it on you in ME3. Was emo Shepard an interesting character? Yes, but it wasn't the same Shepard that I'd been playing as for the past two games.

[iOnlySignIn]

On the contrary.

I need an option for my character to not act like a sentimental idiot like Shepard does (regardless of how I play) in ME3.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 25 janvier 2013 - 01:09 .

[upsettingshorts]

It's almost as if this represents a subjective goldlilocks problem or something.

[n2nw]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

We are exploring ways to allow the player to better react in a variety of ways to big events.

Has the fallback of ultimately "You can only select these reactions at the times that we allow you to" with the benefit of "At least for these choices, you're given a bit more flexibility in how you react."

Not a perfect solution, and still being investigated, but it is something that I think is a good thing to investigate.

I'm happy that you're trying!  I want the reaction to be my choice, but I do want to react.  When big things happen, I want to be able to react - to the situation and to those around me.  Especially if those events directly affect me or my friends.  i want to be able to support them (but I want to have their support at times, too - like the whole Mom thing in DA2, only a little more, please).

You're around your companions all the time and they have your back in battle.  Even if you don't like them, you would still want to be sure that they're okay and won't slip up.  And if you like them, you would want to offer sympathy, encouragement and/or support when needed (and receive it).  A big part of the enjoyment of the game for me is developing relationships with the incredible companions that we've been given.  This is great news!

Modifié par n2nw, 25 janvier 2013 - 01:27 .

[addiction21]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It's almost as if this represents a subjective goldlilocks problem or something.

You get a cookie.