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[Fishy]

Giltspur wrote...

Well what does one mean by 'dark'?

They probably mean something like Hardship , miserably, precarity , sadness , loneliness , isolation , social alienation, hopelessness   with dark and smoky atmosphere full of despair ... With pest like rats and dysfunctionnal familly with father beating their son and prostitution .. Just like my life.

Than the big shiny hero come along and save everyone life .. than you have rainbow and carebears dancing in the rainbow.

Think of movies like The road or Dredd.

Modifié par Suprez30, 25 janvier 2013 - 09:34 .

[ReallyRue]

Well, I hope it's not as grim as DA2. Though you could have a perky Hawke, it's implied to be a cover-up of their unhappiness, and similar themes with the other humorous characters. There's doom, gloom and misery coming from all over the place, and everything Hawke does fails.

Similar with ME3, though Shep has successes (far fewer if you aren't full paragon), there's an overwhelming feeling of 'we're all doomed' that runs through the game, unlike the first two, which had a better balance.

As for moral choices, I'd like more with no simple right or wrong answer. I'd like lots of choices that each have positives and negatives so you go for what feels right to you and not just for the 'correct answer'. Such as with the Redcliffe choice in DAO - going to the Circle was the obvious correct answer, meaning that sacrificing Isolde or killing Connor became less interesting as choices because they became the obvious wrong ones. If taking the time to go all the way to the Circle meant that Isolde and Connor live but others die in an attack on the village, then it would have been better balanced.

[wright1978]

ReallyRue wrote...

Well, I hope it's not as grim as DA2. Though you could have a perky Hawke, it's implied to be a cover-up of their unhappiness, and similar themes with the other humorous characters. There's doom, gloom and misery coming from all over the place, and everything Hawke does fails. 

Never got that feeling of gloom. My Hawke's generally do feel very much like they are 'Wash from Firefly' adrift like a leaf on the wind, which is a bit frustating rather than gloomy.

[Iron Star]

At the very least as dark as DA:O, but preferably more than that. The dragon age series is described as a "dark fantasy setting", and while I can agree to that to some degree with DA:O (and more so awakening), dragon age II seemed too much like sunshine and Varric jokes, apart from the mom scene. Still, I like a bit of light every now and then to brighten up the mood and create a better atmosphere, total darkness never makes for a good story.

[ReallyRue]

wright1978 wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

Well, I hope it's not as grim as DA2. Though you could have a perky Hawke, it's implied to be a cover-up of their unhappiness, and similar themes with the other humorous characters. There's doom, gloom and misery coming from all over the place, and everything Hawke does fails. 

Never got that feeling of gloom. My Hawke's generally do feel very much like they are 'Wash from Firefly' adrift like a leaf on the wind, which is a bit frustating rather than gloomy.

Ah, Wash. But we know what happens to him...
It depends on the character, and I didn't notice it at first, but after subsequent playthroughs, I notice how the Deep Roads mission always leads to sad storylines - for Hawke and sibling, and Varric. Fenris and Anders are always miserable. Merrill gets beaten with the tragedy stick so many times I think she has a 'hit me' sign on her back. But Hawke seems to have a really bad time of it.

On my first character, Hawke loses Bethany as a mage, Carver is sent to the Wardens, her dad's already dead and her mother follows horribly. Her LI was Anders, so that was no plain sailing, but none of the LIs are. Isabela leaves and doesn't return, Sebastian walks out at the end. She's forced to kill Merrill's entire clan in self defence. Varric's brother goes insane as a result of the expedition she was part of. The Viscount and his son are murdered, mages get abused and/or possessed, templars die in retalliation. At the end of it all, Hawke has to flee her home yet again.

Aveline's and Isabela's are perhaps the happiest storylines (though both have sad backstories). Aveline's quest with Donnic, and Charade with Gamlen are my favourite for the heart-warming moments, but they're rare. I enjoyed the game, but I'd like a few more moments of success and triumph over adversity.

[DarthCaine]

Dragon Age was never "dark fantasy", they just marketed it as such, so no reason to start being one now

[wright1978]

ReallyRue wrote...

Ah, Wash. But we know what happens to him...
It depends on the character, and I didn't notice it at first, but after subsequent playthroughs, I notice how the Deep Roads mission always leads to sad storylines - for Hawke and sibling, and Varric. Fenris and Anders are always miserable. Merrill gets beaten with the tragedy stick so many times I think she has a 'hit me' sign on her back. But Hawke seems to have a really bad time of it.

On my first character, Hawke loses Bethany as a mage, Carver is sent to the Wardens, her dad's already dead and her mother follows horribly. Her LI was Anders, so that was no plain sailing, but none of the LIs are. Isabela leaves and doesn't return, Sebastian walks out at the end. She's forced to kill Merrill's entire clan in self defence. Varric's brother goes insane as a result of the expedition she was part of. The Viscount and his son are murdered, mages get abused and/or possessed, templars die in retalliation. At the end of it all, Hawke has to flee her home yet again.

Aveline's and Isabela's are perhaps the happiest storylines (though both have sad backstories). Aveline's quest with Donnic, and Charade with Gamlen are my favourite for the heart-warming moments, but they're rare. I enjoyed the game, but I'd like a few more moments of success and triumph over adversity.

Interesting perspective. My Hawke's gravitate towards Isabela romance which feels like a definite pocket of joy in the story but i can see how it might not feel like that if say you romanced Anders.

[mcsupersport]

I like Dark to just show how good the light in the story is...

But honestly, make it a good story, with really good characters and settings and I can tolerate just about any spectrum of light or darkness, as the characters usually make or break a story for me.

I prefer not to have a story that makes me want to slit my wrists at the end of it, and I generally prefer a happy ending to some kind of depressing drivel that tries to be "Artistic" and "meaningful"....it is a freakin game..if I wanted Artistic I would go to a museum and if I wanted meaningful I would watch the news.

[ReallyRue]

wright1978 wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

Ah, Wash. But we know what happens to him...
It depends on the character, and I didn't notice it at first, but after subsequent playthroughs, I notice how the Deep Roads mission always leads to sad storylines - for Hawke and sibling, and Varric. Fenris and Anders are always miserable. Merrill gets beaten with the tragedy stick so many times I think she has a 'hit me' sign on her back. But Hawke seems to have a really bad time of it.

On my first character, Hawke loses Bethany as a mage, Carver is sent to the Wardens, her dad's already dead and her mother follows horribly. Her LI was Anders, so that was no plain sailing, but none of the LIs are. Isabela leaves and doesn't return, Sebastian walks out at the end. She's forced to kill Merrill's entire clan in self defence. Varric's brother goes insane as a result of the expedition she was part of. The Viscount and his son are murdered, mages get abused and/or possessed, templars die in retalliation. At the end of it all, Hawke has to flee her home yet again.

Aveline's and Isabela's are perhaps the happiest storylines (though both have sad backstories). Aveline's quest with Donnic, and Charade with Gamlen are my favourite for the heart-warming moments, but they're rare. I enjoyed the game, but I'd like a few more moments of success and triumph over adversity.

Interesting perspective. My Hawke's gravitate towards Isabela romance which feels like a definite pocket of joy in the story but i can see how it might not feel like that if say you romanced Anders.

Trouble is, on the Anders romance, Isabela left in Act 2, so I lost the funniest character whilst romancing the most miserable. '
Isabela was definitely the most uplifting of the romances, though I suppose the Fenris one is cheerful enough by the very end, and Sebastian's is alright if you don't mind the comparative lack of content. 

[Missandei]

I’d like a mixture of dark and light, please!

Seriously, I think both are needed to make a really good story. If it’s all light and happiness and frolicking in the sun, it’s going to be rather boring after an hour or two of playing. On the other side, if it’s just death after death and tragedy and torture and gloom, it’s going to be boring too.

The fun moments, the happiness, the joking around is what makes me care about the world. I won’t want to help the world if it’s all dark. The comedy and lighthearted moments are needed to make me care about the world and the dark moments are needed for drama and because Thedas isn’t a perfect world. It’s got a lot of issues, and I want to see them acknowledged.

For the darkness, I want emotional darkness, not just gore and torture for the sake of being edgy and mature. I want sad moments, like when Hawke’s mom dies and when she killed Anders because she felt like she had to, for justice.

I guess bittersweet with an emphasis on sweet at first, then bitter later on, then sweet at the very end because, damn it, my characters always work hard for their happy endings and I think they deserve it.

[Noctis Augustus]

As much as possible and more mature... like "The Witcher 2: Assasssins of Kings" which makes "Dragon Age 2" look like a saturday morning cartoon in comparison.

Modifié par ibbikiookami, 26 janvier 2013 - 01:54 .

[Andronic0s]

I am a fan of context specific atmosphere, a perfect example is the Lord of The Ring movies, when in the Shire everything takes on a lighter tone while if the characters are in Mordor everything is dark and depressing, it feels more natural than having a whole game being locked into one atmospheric feeling.

[Addai]

Suprez30 wrote...

Giltspur wrote...

Well what does one mean by 'dark'?

They probably mean something like Hardship , miserably, precarity , sadness , loneliness , isolation , social alienation, hopelessness   with dark and smoky atmosphere full of despair ... With pest like rats and dysfunctionnal familly with father beating their son and prostitution .. Just like my life.

Than the big shiny hero come along and save everyone life .. than you have rainbow and carebears dancing in the rainbow.

Think of movies like The road or Dredd.

That's not really what I would define as dark.  What I think of  is that there aren't any easy moral formulas that if you follow everything will work out.  Choices have consequences, some of them unintended, and if there is happiness and reward it has come at a price.

Overall I think the DA writers do this very well.  DA2 just had too much of an extreme, manic tone.  I think it will be difficult for them to rein the mage-templar conflict back in to something grounded and complex using that as a foundation.  Probably there is pressure to make things dramatic and "epic," and they don't trust audiences to follow a more muted approach.  There's good foundation for that worry.  Mainstream audiences are quick to label such stories as dull.  Hopefully they will try, though.  This needs a strong political story or I don't think it will be worth much.

As far as grit and gore- I think about the classic suspense movies like hitchcock.  They are so much more sinister, and get under my skin more, than the modern films that splash a lot of blood, guts and explicit sex across the screen.   It's mostly done through symbolism and character, and a slow build of tension.

Modifié par Addai67, 26 janvier 2013 - 12:11 .

[bondari reloads.]

As long as you dont make it fifty shades of dark I'm fine with anything. There aint a switch for atmospherical gamma and imo it would be fatal to use it as a buzzword in advertising, which would have had to be brown (in a variety of shades) for DA:O.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Honestly, if they could bring a tone to the game similar to that of Origins, then I would be more than happy. DA:O really struck a pretty good balance with me; it was dark, and there was all sorts of evil and racism and corruption and monsters, but what made it so compelling was that you could score meaningful blows against them. The darkness of the setting was something to be fought against, not merely endured, and the setting was a better place when you finished the game then when you began. Plus, it didn't hurt that the Warden was a complete BAMF ready and willing to take on any challenge, and you felt like your character had genuine agency in shaping the world around you.

Personally, I'm tired of this perpetually depressing "dark=mature" trap that both DA2 and ME3 fell headlong into. When I finishing playing a session of DA3, I should feel like "alright, I did some good work today," not "where's my bottle of antidepressants." There's a huge range of tone and atmosphere in-between "saccharine" and "grimdark", and I really hope the developers and writers realize it.

[In Exile]

ThePhoenixKing wrote...
Personally, I'm tired of this perpetually depressing "dark=mature" trap that both DA2 and ME3 fell headlong into. When I finishing playing a session of DA3, I should feel like "alright, I did some good work today," not "where's my bottle of antidepressants." There's a huge range of tone and atmosphere in-between "saccharine" and "grimdark", and I really hope the developers and writers realize it.

The thing is, if ME3 ended slightly differently, IMO, I would have found it to overall be positive. It was how ME3 ended IMO that made it unsatisfying and grimdark.

[Sable Rhapsody]

ThePhoenixKing wrote...
Personally, I'm tired of this perpetually depressing "dark=mature" trap that both DA2 and ME3 fell headlong into. When I finishing playing a session of DA3, I should feel like "alright, I did some good work today," not "where's my bottle of antidepressants." There's a huge range of tone and atmosphere in-between "saccharine" and "grimdark", and I really hope the developers and writers realize it.

+1.  I'm getting a little sick of the whole "grimdark for the sake of grimdark" thing too.  Avatar: The Last Airbender and its sequel series were colorful shows on Nickelodeon that had no swearing, blood, sex, or any of the things we normally think of as gritty.  They covered subject material from mental breakdown to terrorism better than most "mature" media.

[ThePhoenixKing]

In Exile wrote...

ThePhoenixKing wrote...
Personally, I'm tired of this perpetually depressing "dark=mature" trap that both DA2 and ME3 fell headlong into. When I finishing playing a session of DA3, I should feel like "alright, I did some good work today," not "where's my bottle of antidepressants." There's a huge range of tone and atmosphere in-between "saccharine" and "grimdark", and I really hope the developers and writers realize it.

The thing is, if ME3 ended slightly differently, IMO, I would have found it to overall be positive. It was how ME3 ended IMO that made it unsatisfying and grimdark.

That's a good point, but I don't think that every other conversation ending with "Oh, the Reapers are here, we're so screwed" really helped matters. Maybe I just could have done with Shepard giving some actually inspiring speeches, or at the very least a "Never tell me the odds!"

In short, Bioware, feel free to have us confront all manner of evil, just give us the chance to kick the #%&@ out of it too.

[In Exile]

ThePhoenixKing wrote...
Maybe I just could have done with Shepard giving some actually inspiring speeches, or at the very least a "Never tell me the odds!"

I agree with you here. But I just never got into the hopelessness. 

In short, Bioware, feel free to have us confront all manner of evil, just give us the chance to kick the #%&@ out of it too.

I agree. TW2 does that well, for such a grimdark and ****ty setting.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

ThePhoenixKing wrote...
Personally, I'm tired of this perpetually depressing "dark=mature" trap that both DA2 and ME3 fell headlong into. When I finishing playing a session of DA3, I should feel like "alright, I did some good work today," not "where's my bottle of antidepressants." There's a huge range of tone and atmosphere in-between "saccharine" and "grimdark", and I really hope the developers and writers realize it.

+1.  I'm getting a little sick of the whole "grimdark for the sake of grimdark" thing too.  Avatar: The Last Airbender and its sequel series were colorful shows on Nickelodeon that had no swearing, blood, sex, or any of the things we normally think of as gritty.  They covered subject material from mental breakdown to terrorism better than most "mature" media.

Yay, someone referencing Avatar!

And you bring up a good point: most so-called mature media is anything but (DC Comic's New 52 line-up springs to mind).

[Direwolf0294]

I guess I want it dark, but not super grimdark with everything being constant misery and hopelessness. I want the game to deal with tough subjects, eg murder, rape, slavery, drug use, in a mature way, but I don't want the game to just be that. I want it to also show scenes of hope, compasion, friendship, love, all those sorts of things, but without breaking the dark theme of the game. So stuff like, for example, you have the option to spare a man's life and then later the man sacrifices himself to save the life of a child, or you have a plan to defeat the big bad, it's a good plan, it doesn't quite work, it looks like you're screwed, you share a last kiss with you LI or brofist with your best friend companion and then something happens that lets you still make it out of there alive and live to fight another day.

Having humour is also a good thing, if that humour fits with the world. That is to say, rather than having a ton of references to RL stuff or having a quest minigame where you run around kicking chickens or something, you instead have a companion who makes sarcastic remarks about your situation.

For me, ending the game on a positive note it also rather important. I've always said, give me as much death, destruction, horror and mind bends as you want during the story, so long as it all ends on a relatively positive note. I've said before that my preference for RPG endings is the ME2 way of doing things. A culmination of choices where you can either end the game poorly or positively based on your actions, but BioWare has indicated they favour the big final decision way of doing things where you can't "win" the game. They've also apparently become a fan of bittersweet. Both of those are fine, I can live with them, so long as the final decisions are all very different from each other and do somehow take into account your actions leading up to that point, and so long as the sweet outweighs the bitter in the bittersweet ending. ME3 failed to do that, even with the expanded ending the sweet to bitter ratio is still not right, and I hope DA3 is different.

[xAmilli0n]

 I often joke around about how I want games to be super dark and have the characters suffer, but I thought I'd actually make a serious post.

I enjoy dark fantasy because of the brutal reality it brings to the genre.  But too often graphic violence is used as a substitute for plot and character substance.  I'm not talking about the endless mooks we have to cut through to progress the game (comes with the territory, but maybe it should apply to them as well) but of actual characters we are presented with (squadmates, family members, named NPCs we meet, even villains)

Serious violence is rare occurence for most, and every time death is delt with in a cavalier manner, it becomes a cheap gimmick that is only there for shock value (you become desensitized).  Such events in real life can have life changing consequences.

I want the game to be dark.  But I don't want it to be a nonstop fest of death, rape, and violence thats only purpose is to make the player go "I can't believe they did that."

Use this instead as a tool to accentuate the gravity of an event.  Then remind the player that once it has occured, there is not giong back to how things were before it happened.

[In Exile]

xAmilli0n wrote...
I enjoy dark fantasy because of the brutal reality it brings to the genre.  

There's never been a dark fantasy game. Everything gives you a BAMF as a protagonist, who is entirely immune from the brutality and terror of the genre. I wonder how much people would be asking for a dark fantasy game if they didn't have the power protagonists do - if they were the whimpering victims in-game.

Use this instead as a tool to accentuate the gravity of an event.  Then remind the player that once it has occured, there is not giong back to how things were before it happened.

It's difficult to pull that off.

[xAmilli0n]

In Exile wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

I enjoy dark fantasy because of the brutal reality it brings to the genre.  

There's never been a dark fantasy game. Everything gives you a BAMF as a protagonist, who is entirely immune from the brutality and terror of the genre. I wonder how much people would be asking for a dark fantasy game if they didn't have the power protagonists do - if they were the whimpering victims in-game.

Its been done before, just not in the fantasy genre.  Also, we don't have to make the protagonist useless, just as human as the other characters, and able to lose.

In Exile wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

Use this instead as a tool to accentuate the gravity of an event.  Then remind the player that once it has occured, there is not giong back to how things were before it happened.

It's difficult to pull that off.

I never said it would be easy.  But I definitely think it is what the creators should strive for.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 26 janvier 2013 - 12:54 .