332 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

xAmilli0n wrote...
Its been done before, just not in the fantasy genre.  Also, we don't have to make the protagonist useless, just as human as the other characters, and able to lose.

Fantasy games don't work with humans being humans. The things we do are decidedly inhuman. The feast the PC is a capable of become entirely impossible if the PC isn't supernatural. 

I never said it would be easy.  But definitely think it is what the creator should strive for.

The problem is a pay-off. You can portray slavery in the most brutal manner, that makes us want to gut all the slavers. But without letting us do it, the game becomes a ****ty experience. IMO.

[Chipaway111]

ReallyRue wrote...

Well, I hope it's not as grim as DA2. Though you could have a perky Hawke, it's implied to be a cover-up of their unhappiness, and similar themes with the other humorous characters. There's doom, gloom and misery coming from all over the place, and everything Hawke does fails.

Similar with ME3, though Shep has successes (far fewer if you aren't full paragon), there's an overwhelming feeling of 'we're all doomed' that runs through the game, unlike the first two, which had a better balance.

As for moral choices, I'd like more with no simple right or wrong answer. I'd like lots of choices that each have positives and negatives so you go for what feels right to you and not just for the 'correct answer'. Such as with the Redcliffe choice in DAO - going to the Circle was the obvious correct answer, meaning that sacrificing Isolde or killing Connor became less interesting as choices because they became the obvious wrong ones. If taking the time to go all the way to the Circle meant that Isolde and Connor live but others die in an attack on the village, then it would have been better balanced.

To be fair I went into Origins without any fore-knowledge of any quests, characters, stories or options and I had the impression that going to the Circle was the completely risky idiotic choice because it would be a few days travel there and back and leave the village vulnerable to an even more terrible attack. So I killed Connor. Boy was my playthrough depressing given I refused to consult google when I was un-sure. That was fun though. I would like some more 'Reality Ensues' moments too, let the game trip me up occasionally if I think I've taken the easy way out.

Modifié par Chipaway111, 26 janvier 2013 - 12:57 .

[xAmilli0n]

In Exile wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...
Its been done before, just not in the fantasy genre.  Also, we don't have to make the protagonist useless, just as human as the other characters, and able to lose.

Fantasy games don't work with humans being humans. The things we do are decidedly inhuman. The feast the PC is a capable of become entirely impossible if the PC isn't supernatural.

Meh, I disagree.  You can even have a magical protagonist while still having them be "human." 

I never said it would be easy.  But definitely think it is what the creator should strive for.

The problem is a pay-off. You can portray slavery in the most brutal manner, that makes us want to gut all the slavers. But without letting us do it, the game becomes a ****ty experience. IMO.

There should definitely be a payoff, but that payoff shouldn't be an over the top mass murdering rampage of revenege.  Make taking revenge have affect on the protagonist and those close to them.  You get what I'm saying?  The process of "gutting" those slavers would definitely have some effect.

Now, like I said, this is what I would like.  I realize this might translate to Dragon Age very well (at least within one game cycle).  But if they were to go dark, this is what I would like to see.

Modifié par xAmilli0n, 26 janvier 2013 - 01:21 .

[BubbleDncr]

I didn't find DA2 anywhere near as dark as Origins. To me, having to convince my lover to to sex magic with another girl so that neither of us would die, was pretty twisted. And the whole broodmother thing, and getting to either kill a child or his mother when the kid's posessed by a demon - those were both dark, too.

The only part in DA2 that I could consider dark was the bloodmage recreating his lover out of dead women's body parts with your mom as the head.

So based off that, I would like ti to be more like Origins. And I wouldn't mind if there was more dark stuff in there.

Edit: Make it Song of Ice and Fire dark, and that would be awesome.

Modifié par BubbleDncr, 26 janvier 2013 - 01:23 .

[Steppenwolf]

I gravitate toward darker fantasy. The more lighthearted fantasy doesn't have much appeal for me. I like when stakes are high and sacrifice is required.

[In Exile]

xAmilli0n wrote...
Meh, I disagree.  You can even have a magical protagonist while still having them be "human."

I think they can be human, don't get me wrong. I just don't think it would be the dark that you're going for, i.e., "brutal reality".

There should definitely be a payoff, but that payoff shouldn't be an over the top mass murdering rampage of revenege.

Why not?

Make taking revenge have affect on the protagonist and those close to them.  You get what I'm saying?  The process of "gutting" those slavers would definitely have some effect.

One would imagine that the slavery and brutal world would have already done that. I don't think you can have the deep psychological experience you want and have powerful protagonists. 

[TheShadowWolf911]

that depends, if i go dark can i commit genocide on the humans?

[xAmilli0n]

You know what, while I stand by my opinion on what I would like in a "dark" fantasy game, I've been replaying DA2, and I kinda just want to go with something similar to what we go in DA:O and DA2.

Change too much from that and it just wouldn't feel like Dragon Age, you know?

[In Exile]

TheShadowWolf911 wrote...

that depends, if i go dark can i commit genocide on the humans?

No, probably just dwarves or elves. 

[Medhia Nox]

Can anyone name a fantasy story where sacrifice was not required? Maybe they do exist - but I can't think of any right now.

If you don't think Frodo's story was very "dark" (if dark is to be understood as sacrifice) - you actually don't understand the Lord of the Rings.

Conan sacrifices plenty in his tales - lovers, allies, his own wild freedom as a proud noble savage outsider looking in and critiquing civilization.

In the end - Harry Potter sacrifices magic. He begins his tale believing magic to be "the answer" to all worldly ills - until magic, in the form of Voldemort, becomes all ills in his world. The final act of him destroying the elder wand is a message that there is no "magic wand" that can make a man's world better (like Voldemort believed).

If you think these characters were not all emotionally changed by the ends of their stories - just because the sun comes out the next day - you simply do not understand these stories.

SO... what tales are we criticizing so deeply for not possessing these "dark" and "mature" qualities people crave so desperately for?

@Chipaway111: Those are the kinds of genuinely meaningful choices that Bioware has started to deprive us of in DA 2. Particularly in a quest line about a certain family member that plays out simply as a scripted event no matter what you do (much like the entire game).

They claim it's because people will just reload saves. I say, who cares? I paid for the damn game. If I want to reload saves - who are they to decide I can't? Sure, they possess all narrative power, but with each poorly structured RPG they make I lose more interest in the next.

[Fawx9]

No more than the His Dark Materials trilogy.

But they had cuddly talking animals you say? Read the books, and forget the movie. The series has about as much sacrifice as I would want, especially when you consider that all the **** is happening to basically young teens.

[n2nw]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

ThePhoenixKing wrote...
Personally, I'm tired of this perpetually depressing "dark=mature" trap that both DA2 and ME3 fell headlong into. When I finishing playing a session of DA3, I should feel like "alright, I did some good work today," not "where's my bottle of antidepressants." There's a huge range of tone and atmosphere in-between "saccharine" and "grimdark", and I really hope the developers and writers realize it.

+1.  I'm getting a little sick of the whole "grimdark for the sake of grimdark" thing too. 

I third this motion.

A good story will carry you through it all - sadness, laughter, heartache, joy, lust, power, greed, sacrifice, compassion, empathy, selflessness, tragedy, triumph, despair, hope and (my favorite)....love.  But too much of any of them will be boring.  Except for maybe love.  Well, and lust.

I don't want to ride on Pegasus with Lassie at my side and sunlight and leprechauns everywhere through the whole game (although a Griffin would be nice).  I also don't want to spend the entire game losing all my companions (especially not the LI), be wrestling with an incurable disease and a mighty case of acne, and jump from one monster to the next in a never ending tunnel of dark, foggy dungeons where one of the monsters kills Lassie.

Sable Rhapsody said it well when stating that if we don't care about the world, why bother trying to save it?  If you make it too hard and the sacrifices are too much, then why bother playing?  I can stand sacrifice but don't make me give up that which I care about the most.  The sacrifices in DA2 were okay.  Some of the choices you had to make in DAO, however, made me angry.

Give me some hard times, give me some good times throughout the entire game.  Give me good or bad consequences based on my decisions.  And at the end of the day, let me walk away (happily) with the LI and know that I've made a difference.

[Malanek]

n2nw wrote...
I also don't want to spend the entire game losing all my companions (especially not the LI), be wrestling with an incurable disease and a mighty case of acne, and jump from one monster to the next in a never ending tunnel of dark, foggy dungeons where one of the monsters kills Lassie.

Sable Rhapsody said it well when stating that if we don't care about the world, why bother trying to save it?  If you make it too hard and the sacrifices are too much, then why bother playing?  I can stand sacrifice but don't make me give up that which I care about the most.  The sacrifices in DA2 were okay.  Some of the choices you had to make in DAO, however, made me angry.

Dark shouldn't really mean depressing? Not quite sure everyone is talking about the same thing. To me a "dark story" is simply one that doesn't shy away from examining baser human actions and emotions. I wouldn't consider a story set after a nuclear holocaust automatically dark just because the world is almost destroyed, I would consider it dark if those left over descended into anarchy. And the story could still have a happy ending without making it not dark.

I thought DA2 was good in terms of what I consider "Dark". You had Anders blowing up the chantry, Templars trying to legigitimise a police state, betrayal, lust, greed, slavery....those parts of it were really good. But the ending was somewhat depressing. It felt everything you had accomplished was completely undone. Almost everyone you rescued, helped or trusted turned out to be a bloodmage. IMO that has nothing to do with how dark a story is, it was just a little bit depressing. The end should ideally be emotionally uplifting.

[atum]

0x111111

it's a nice dark grey.

[Versus Omnibus]

I don't mind a dark story so long as it doesn't seem hopeless to the PC.

[n2nw]

Malanek999 wrote...

n2nw wrote...
I also don't want to spend the entire game losing all my companions (especially not the LI), be wrestling with an incurable disease and a mighty case of acne, and jump from one monster to the next in a never ending tunnel of dark, foggy dungeons where one of the monsters kills Lassie.

Sable Rhapsody said it well when stating that if we don't care about the world, why bother trying to save it?  If you make it too hard and the sacrifices are too much, then why bother playing?  I can stand sacrifice but don't make me give up that which I care about the most.  The sacrifices in DA2 were okay.  Some of the choices you had to make in DAO, however, made me angry.

Dark shouldn't really mean depressing? Not quite sure everyone is talking about the same thing. To me a "dark story" is simply one that doesn't shy away from examining baser human actions and emotions. I wouldn't consider a story set after a nuclear holocaust automatically dark just because the world is almost destroyed, I would consider it dark if those left over descended into anarchy. And the story could still have a happy ending without making it not dark.

Po-tay-toe / Po-tah-toe

I find a nuclear holocaust depressing.  Descending into anarchy afterwards, with people falling victim to their base human emotions, just makes it more so.

Are you perhaps trying to make a point (and I could be wrong) about violent or reprehensible human behaviors (such as rape or torture)?  Those things were all in DAO and their presence didn't bother me.  They fit into the storylines.  I would not like to see them in graphic detail, nor would I like for some things to happen to my PC.  However, if handled right, they can add a great depth of emotion to the game (such as Shianni in DAO or your Mother in DA2).

None of that changes what was said.  If you're going to give me these things, make me care about them happening.  My DAO PC loved Shianni and my DA2 PC loved her Mother.  When these things happened, they hurt, and the PC got to extract justice.  The game made me care about the people who got hurt, so I wanted to act.

On the other side of that coin, had there been too much destruction to my PC or her loved ones (or had I not been allowed to love those around me), I would have deemed it not worth the effort.  Tragedy calls us to act, despair just makes us give up.

Modifié par n2nw, 26 janvier 2013 - 06:20 .

[Dave of Canada]

In Exile wrote...

There's never been a dark fantasy game. Everything gives you a BAMF as a protagonist, who is entirely immune from the brutality and terror of the genre. I wonder how much people would be asking for a dark fantasy game if they didn't have the power protagonists do - if they were the whimpering victims in-game.

Ever play the Game of Thrones RPG? It does precisely this at critical moments of the game.

[Sable Rhapsody]

ThePhoenixKing wrote...
Yay, someone referencing Avatar!

And you bring up a good point: most so-called mature media is anything but (DC Comic's New 52 line-up springs to mind).

Avatar is awesome.  Amon and Azula both still give me chills, and I've watched the series a bazillion times.  You don't need an M rating to make your story dark or mature.  You need good writing.  The rest is just icing on the cake.

Malanek999 wrote...
I thought DA2 was good in terms of what I consider "Dark". You had Anders blowing up the chantry, Templars trying to legigitimise a police state, betrayal, lust, greed, slavery....those parts of it were really good. But the ending was somewhat depressing. It felt everything you had accomplished was completely undone. Almost everyone you rescued, helped or trusted turned out to be a bloodmage. IMO that has nothing to do with how dark a story is, it was just a little bit depressing. The end should ideally be emotionally uplifting.

I'm willing to give DA2 a bit of a break since it was set up for a cliffhanger, but generally I do agree.  The templar/mage thing was decent during acts 1 and 2, with very reasonable figures on both sides of the conflict, but by act 3 it pretty much turned into evil people fighting evil people, and that is neither interesting nor realistic.

[Bovolt]

Personally I say make me sick with the atmosphere. Bioware games in the past, oh, 10 years have always safely straddled the line between dark and light hearted. There will be dark situations, but there's always your party members and hilarious conversations to keep it from being too serious. Even Mass Effect 3, with it being the end of all things, wasn't all that dark. It was just sorta, meh. I would love to see Bioware throw caution to the wind and make a bleak hopeless RPG without the comic relief.

Actually, the Post game for Dragon's Dogma is pretty close to the atmosphere I'm talking about.

*spoilers*

Long story short, the sun is gone, it's raining ash, everybody is miserable, a good portion of people are now dead, half of the capital has fallen into an endless abyss, you're wanted by the king and his knights, nobody is better off, previously held areas are over run, monsters are stronger, nothing can be changed, and it's all your fault.

Modifié par Bovolt, 26 janvier 2013 - 03:24 .

[Gileadan]

The Game of Thrones RPG, Dishonored and Spec Ops: The Line had the darkness thing nailed down pretty well. I'd like to experience a similar atmosphere in DA:I.

[Imjak]

A balance. Total darkness and depression doesn't really lure me into spending time involved with what is suppposed to be leisure time entertainment.

[Talonfire]

I think it's better to balance things out.

Frankly, I have agree with the other folks who have commented that this dark trend the various entertainment industries are going through is getting a bit old. I don't mind dark stories, but when the entertainment industry is saturated in them they start to become mundane and tiresome.

Modifié par Talonfire, 26 janvier 2013 - 04:40 .

[Zkyire]

The Dragon Age universe is plenty dark as it is (some of the storylines are downright horrifying).

The problem is they just don't "show" enough of it.

Examples:

- There's torture - but you don't see it happen.

- A man is left to starve to death in a cage in Ostagar, but you don't see him die, or really suffer beyond "Dude, I'm hungry".

- Human Noble Origin, your little nephew is butchered, but you arrive after the fact.

So yeah, the universe is plenty grimdark, I'd just like to see more things happen, rather than arrive afterwards.

Modifié par Zkyire, 26 janvier 2013 - 04:44 .

[Wynne]

Darth Death wrote...

Are you hoping for some unsettling, gut wrenching, ethically disturbing themes surrounding your DA3 experience? Or are some of you hoping for a hug with a nug approach? What do people think when they hear the word "dark fantasy"? And how much of that do you want to experience in DA3?  

Count me on board the "both" train. 

Give me highs. Give me lows. Real life has both, so should fiction. Make me sob AND bust a gut. Never let me take either for granted.

Variety is the spice of life and of gaming as well. The second-to-last thing you want is Tastes Like Diabetes OR Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy; the absolute last is just plain apathy. But the thing you want most is for your audience to be involved and unable to feel certain what will happen (most of the time, some astute person will predict the outcome anyway, so you tend to craft a Third Option as often as you can, but even then, you will never have a 100% surprise-everyone success rate, so probably the best choice is making the savvy ones say not "Well, of course" but "I KNEW IT!" Making the ones who pay attention feel smart is never a bad thing.) 

Give me the nastiest poison you've got, as long as there's an antidote for it somewhere.

[Dean_the_Young]

I want a story in which people who are good do so despite there being evil in the world, not by pretending it doesn't exist. I want emotional trials and adversity that are overcome, not avoided. I want idealists who stick to their ideals despite the costs they bring, not because the costs are never applied.