286 réponses à ce sujet

[JewelsWinnfield]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Not sure how the mechanics of gold wouldn't translate to platinum, perhaps you can provide an example?

 

Say I'm a GI.

On gold, first of all, the better my shooting, the faster I can clear all waves, particularly the early ones where it's mainly mooks with small heads & 250% headshot damage bonus. Not only that, but my survival depends on me being able to kill these quickly while simultaneously avoiding their attacks.

On Platinum, there are so many bosses, which have huge head hit boxes, move slowly and only give 40% extra damage for headshots. My aim being precise matters less, since the bosses are so large and move so slowly, I won't miss them. Also, most bosses (Atlas, Prime etc.) will drop my shields in one shot, but their attacks may be easily avoided by using soft cover. And I can abuse the shieldgate mechanics to trivialise them. Thus turning the entire Platinum game with my GI into Right Hand Advantage: The Game.

You can always save Atlases and Primes for the end of the Wave and take care of those Phantoms instead. It's also the faster way to clear the spawn budget.

Modifié par Hendrix137, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:37 .

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I'm only half-way through the thread, but the answers are getting longer, so I'll go back and read the last 3 pages later.

I typically place first in Silver matches, and last in Gold matches.

At the moment, I prefer Gold matches (at least with my strongest kits) because of the challenge. I tend towards support/utility, so I'm happy with extractions and team performance. I tend to play my Volus Adept and Shadow, because they are my best survivalists. Neither is too well set up for big damage output, but that's not why I enjoy playing them.

A couple of times in the last month, though, I've dropped down to Silver for a couple of days. Ostensibly, to level up my recently promoted characters, but it really has a lot to do with how relaxing it is. It's also really nice to top the scoreboard, once in a while. So I'm not immune to feeling a little pride when I do that.

[Mindlog]

No.
Good Player = Highest Scoring.
That's just math. Can't argue with science.

[Original Twigman]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Not sure how the mechanics of gold wouldn't translate to platinum, perhaps you can provide an example?

 

Say I'm a GI.

On gold, first of all, the better my shooting, the faster I can clear all waves, particularly the early ones where it's mainly mooks with small heads & 250% headshot damage bonus. Not only that, but my survival depends on me being able to kill these quickly while simultaneously avoiding their attacks.

On Platinum, there are so many bosses, which have huge head hit boxes, move slowly and only give 40% extra damage for headshots. My aim being precise matters less, since the bosses are so large and move so slowly, I won't miss them. Also, most bosses (Atlas, Prime etc.) will drop my shields in one shot, but their attacks may be easily avoided by using soft cover. And I can abuse the shieldgate mechanics to trivialise them. Thus turning the entire Platinum game with my GI into Right Hand Advantage: The Game.

Okay... so I agree with you that you are guided to use soft cover/right hand advantage in order to beat platinum. So wouldn't that make knowing game mechanics more important? Initially you said that it makes it less important, so I want to clarify.

Here is where the argument comes. You could say that the level of skill needed to kill enemies faster is different on platinum, whereby speed must be counterbalanced with survival, which includes a greater use of soft cover, dodging, and team coordination.

An example. We had U/U/P and got Geth on Condor with two furys (one of them me), a TGI and a volus. We did the entire thing out in the open, and I would literally dodge left and right at point blank range of a Prime while shooting/and hitting him with BEs. I had to do this while simultaneously eliminating the pyros, hunters, and phantoms around him. it took a lot longer than it would a gold spawn (maybe a good 1-2 minutes?), but i would say that is a skill that many solid gold players wouldn't have ever been able to learn on gold and translates well when jumping back down to gold.

 

No the level of skill needed is not different

How come? I'm curious to know why skill needed is not different, as there are plenty of skilled gold players that don't translate well to platinum but not visa versa. If you are skilled enough to handle platinum you are skilled enough to handle gold, however if you are skilled enough to handle gold it doesn't mean you are skilled enough to handle platinum.

[landylan]

If you're in a public match, you have to kill everything. People don't have to go for a high score. I'd probably top the scoreboard with my feet if I'm playing with randoms.

For example, I stopped fighting for about a minute on wave eight during Operation Geronimo because I wanted to make sure I had enough revives.... There was plenty of reviving going on there.

Basically, a player is better than you if he outscores you by like 30k with any kit and no rockets.

[121210Olivia]

Spawn-killing missile users, who run around, almost pedantically(much like headless chickens), to find their next kill are a good example of bad players who often top the score table.

They'll use excuses not to revive you (so they can secure more points) and they'll often revive themselves almost immediately (not waiting to be revived--unless they're almost, or actually out of medi gel).

In addition, they'll often make excuses not to partake fully in objectives (e.g. 'Oh...I'll "clear" the way' or the likes).

The funniest thing is the way they don't comment (because they are desperate for you too--e-peen, know what I mean??!) after the game finishes on the scoreboard screen.

Total losers!!!

[lightswitch]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Not sure how the mechanics of gold wouldn't translate to platinum, perhaps you can provide an example?

 

Say I'm a GI.

On gold, first of all, the better my shooting, the faster I can clear all waves, particularly the early ones where it's mainly mooks with small heads & 250% headshot damage bonus. Not only that, but my survival depends on me being able to kill these quickly while simultaneously avoiding their attacks.

On Platinum, there are so many bosses, which have huge head hit boxes, move slowly and only give 40% extra damage for headshots. My aim being precise matters less, since the bosses are so large and move so slowly, I won't miss them. Also, most bosses (Atlas, Prime etc.) will drop my shields in one shot, but their attacks may be easily avoided by using soft cover. And I can abuse the shieldgate mechanics to trivialise them. Thus turning the entire Platinum game with my GI into Right Hand Advantage: The Game.

Okay... so I agree with you that you are guided to use soft cover/right hand advantage in order to beat platinum. So wouldn't that make knowing game mechanics more important? Initially you said that it makes it less important, so I want to clarify.

Here is where the argument comes. You could say that the level of skill needed to kill enemies faster is different on platinum, whereby speed must be counterbalanced with survival, which includes a greater use of soft cover, dodging, and team coordination.

An example. We had U/U/P and got Geth on Condor with two furys (one of them me), a TGI and a volus. We did the entire thing out in the open, and I would literally dodge left and right at point blank range of a Prime while shooting/and hitting him with BEs. I had to do this while simultaneously eliminating the pyros, hunters, and phantoms around him. it took a lot longer than it would a gold spawn (maybe a good 1-2 minutes?), but i would say that is a skill that many solid gold players wouldn't have ever been able to learn on gold and translates well when jumping back down to gold.

 

No the level of skill needed is not different, the types of classes and weapons needed is.

For the most part I agree with Feneckus/Sirian on this one, but the Fury might get an exception. Playing a Fury well on Plat...well I don't play the Fury so I can't really say, but it sounds hard. She's unusual though because she's one of those kits that reward players who spend a lot of time with just her. Most of the kits in this game are kind of same-ish, and most of the kits people take to platinum pretty much follow the 'choose highest DPS setup available, use right hand advantage" method Sirian described.

Modifié par lightswitch, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:38 .

[Cyonan]

I'd say not necessarily. A few things can contribute to a difference in scores:

> Whoever plays more aggressively will score higher on average(being more aggressive doesn't actually mean you're more skilled).
> Focusing trash mobs is worth a lot more overall than focusing boss mobs
> If you used 5-8 rockets on wave 11, that doesn't mean you're a pro =P

If somebody doubled your score then yeah, I'd say they're more skilled, but not if they simply outscored you by a bit.

Modifié par Cyonan, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:37 .

[Original Twigman]

lightswitch wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Not sure how the mechanics of gold wouldn't translate to platinum, perhaps you can provide an example?

 

Say I'm a GI.

On gold, first of all, the better my shooting, the faster I can clear all waves, particularly the early ones where it's mainly mooks with small heads & 250% headshot damage bonus. Not only that, but my survival depends on me being able to kill these quickly while simultaneously avoiding their attacks.

On Platinum, there are so many bosses, which have huge head hit boxes, move slowly and only give 40% extra damage for headshots. My aim being precise matters less, since the bosses are so large and move so slowly, I won't miss them. Also, most bosses (Atlas, Prime etc.) will drop my shields in one shot, but their attacks may be easily avoided by using soft cover. And I can abuse the shieldgate mechanics to trivialise them. Thus turning the entire Platinum game with my GI into Right Hand Advantage: The Game.

Okay... so I agree with you that you are guided to use soft cover/right hand advantage in order to beat platinum. So wouldn't that make knowing game mechanics more important? Initially you said that it makes it less important, so I want to clarify.

Here is where the argument comes. You could say that the level of skill needed to kill enemies faster is different on platinum, whereby speed must be counterbalanced with survival, which includes a greater use of soft cover, dodging, and team coordination.

An example. We had U/U/P and got Geth on Condor with two furys (one of them me), a TGI and a volus. We did the entire thing out in the open, and I would literally dodge left and right at point blank range of a Prime while shooting/and hitting him with BEs. I had to do this while simultaneously eliminating the pyros, hunters, and phantoms around him. it took a lot longer than it would a gold spawn (maybe a good 1-2 minutes?), but i would say that is a skill that many solid gold players wouldn't have ever been able to learn on gold and translates well when jumping back down to gold.

 

No the level of skill needed is not different, the types of classes and weapons needed is.

For the most part I agree with Feneckus/Sirian on this one, but the Fury might get an exception. Playing a Fury well on Plat...well I don't play the Fury so I can't really say, but it sounds hard. She's unusual though because she's one of those kitss that reward players who spend a lot of time with just her. Most of the kits in this game are kind of same-ish, and most of the kits people take to platinum pretty much follow the 'choose highest DPS setup available, use right hand advantage" method Sirian described.

Again, its just not a valid argument because you could do that with gold. Me and my Xbox live friends take things like Shadows, Turian soldiers, QMS, Volus, DAs, Batset, Kroldier, etc. on platinum and we will play U/U/P. We've learned how to adapt to platinum so when we take these kits to gold its a lolfest.

I am just not seeing any arguments that prove that platinum doesn't require as "much" skill (bolded because i believe it requires different skill, not more or less).

Modifié par Original Stikman, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:42 .

[Sidney]

It really isn't about aggression though. I really play a pretty passive counter-punchy sort of game and usually score at the tops of the boards. It is about understanding how and where to kill. Spawn control and map knowledge is huge. If you have a good player they won't always score highest but if you play with them 10 times they should be putting up good scores.

There are classes that can skew the top of the board to be dominant - flamers, GI specced for melee - where you get 30k more than anyone else.

[Tybo]

Original Stikman wrote...


Again, its just not a valid argument because you could do that with gold. Me and my Xbox live friends take things like Shadows, Turian soldiers, QMS, Volus, DAs, Batset, Kroldier, etc. on platinum and we will play U/U/P. We've learned how to adapt to platinum so when we take these kits to gold its a lolfest.

Well, half the kits you listed (TSo, QMS, DA, Kroldier) are pretty much elite.  Volus Engineer also is pretty strong.

But really, you guys are mostly arguing past each other.  On Gold, if you are trying to do something competitively (eg no-rocket speedrun), then the team which has the best players will win by more.  Because, primarily, headshots.  An accurate shooter kills mooks 250% faster than an inaccurate one.  On Platinum, as bosses only take 40% bonus headshots and are easier to hit, you will only kill things a little faster than someone just spraying.

Is it harder to complete a Platinum game?  Yes, by a little, but this game isn't hard.  When we're talking about the best players around, that isn't really a factor, as both Gold and Platinum are, as you put it, a lolfest.

In summary, platinum is a bit more difficult, but also flattens the skill curve when played competitively.

Modifié par tyhw, 24 janvier 2013 - 11:47 .

[Feneckus]

Original Stikman wrote...


most of your statements are opinions. Biased ones at that.

Oh really ?

Locust Turian Soldier is viable on Plat then ?
GPR GE as well ?
What about the Phaeston ? How great is it on Plat ?

The bolded isn't as clear-cut as you would like to think.

Since there's so many bosses, you can't clear a spawn. It takes too long. By the time you've killed half the spawn, they respawned and are coming for you. You don't go from spawn to spawn. You only need to know the very first one. That's it.

"Skill is less rewarded."

This statement boggles my mind.

It is.

Take the very same lobby. Play a Gold game. Imagine the score is : 

P1 : 230k
P2 : 100k
P3 : 70k
P4 : 35k

Now play platinum. You can expect something like this :

P1 : 150k
P2 : 110k
P3 : 90k
P4 : 50k

P1 will have a much lower score because all his skills go to waste. It's basically just a DPS competition. Can you kill bosses fast enough before you're overwhelmed ? That's the only question.

Any argument that "high DPS makes it easy... or Armored Compartments makes it easy..." is irrelevant as that can be done on any difficulty, not just exclusively platinum

DPS isn't everything on Gold. Plenty of low DPS kits can do some serious damage on Gold. Locust Turian Soldier or Falcon Human Engineer for example. Those can easily outscore a GI with Armored compartments. Can't do that on plat.

[doozerdude]

Oh gawd here we go again...

"score never matters, rank doesnt mean anything, the guy on the bottom of the scoreboard is the best human being ever! Now lets braid each others' hair"

[Aiyie]

hate to say it...

but there is a correlation between high scores and staying alive though.

the guy with the highest score is killing the most bad guys... i.e. he's not the guy lying on the ground sucking floor (that means he's not the dead guy doing even less to contribute to extracting on the final wave).

[Aiyie]

Sidney wrote...

It really isn't about aggression though. I really play a pretty passive counter-punchy sort of game and usually score at the tops of the boards. It is about understanding how and where to kill. Spawn control and map knowledge is huge. If you have a good player they won't always score highest but if you play with them 10 times they should be putting up good scores.

There are classes that can skew the top of the board to be dominant - flamers, GI specced for melee - where you get 30k more than anyone else.

in my experience the low scorers tend to be low scorers because they don't understand spawn control and map knowledge... and end up dead on the ground as a result of it.

so yes, i do correlate high score to skill.

[ISHYGDDT]

doozerdude wrote...

Oh gawd here we go again...

"score never matters, rank doesnt mean anything, the guy on the bottom of the scoreboard is the best human being ever! Now lets braid each others' hair"

lol. 

[Original Twigman]

Feneckus wrote...
Oh really ?

Locust Turian Soldier is viable on Plat then ?
GPR GE as well ?
What about the Phaeston ? How great is it on Plat ?

of course it won't do as well. I agree with that. It is the same for every difficulty however, it is simply that platinum has a much harder cut off... however this doesn't really prove your main point that "DPS is everything" and skill is less rewarded and was not something that I mentioned in a response.  You leave out things like "situational awareness, use of mechanics, aim, etc." out of skill and just pin it to loadout. A high skill player with a poor loadout vs. a low skill player with a amazing loadout will do better on any difficulty

Since there's so many bosses, you can't clear a spawn. It takes too long. By the time you've killed half the spawn, they respawned and are coming for you. You don't go from spawn to spawn. You only need to know the very first one. That's it.

even if that were true (I have done otherwise), whats the point of stating this? I don't see how that counter argument even addresses mine or supports your initial one.

It is.

Take the very same lobby. Play a Gold game. Imagine the score is : 

P1 : 230k
P2 : 100k
P3 : 70k
P4 : 35k

Now play platinum. You can expect something like this :

P1 : 150k
P2 : 110k
P3 : 90k
P4 : 50k

P1 will have a much lower score because all his skills go to waste. It's basically just a DPS competition. Can you kill bosses fast enough before you're overwhelmed ? That's the only question.

This is all under the premise that score is an indication of skill and is a hypothetical with no real premise. Lower score=skills go to waste? what? I don't even score 230k on gold, but have had a team all get 160k+ for each one of us on platinum.

DPS isn't everything on Gold. Plenty of low DPS kits can do some serious damage on Gold. Locust Turian Soldier or Falcon Human Engineer for example. Those can easily outscore a GI with Armored compartments. Can't do that on plat.

I have extracted your argument from this sentance filled with non-sequitur hypotheticals and got this: "a low dps kit can do well on gold but can't do as well on platinum vs. a high dps kit on either difficulty"

This is true, however it holds true for any difficulty. A high dps kit will do better on platinum as they would on gold. Your example of "Falcon human engineer beating a Armored compartment GI" is a hypothetical based on a very low skilled GI and a high skilled human engineer" because I can guarantee you that I could outscore most if not all players with a GI and armored compartments while they rocked a falcon engineer. Purely out-of-context example


These opinions, while have specific claims, have loads of biased "filler" in them.

Modifié par Original Stikman, 25 janvier 2013 - 12:06 .

[scoopapa1]

Ah yes, kill stealing. We have dismissed this claim.

[parico]

Many players who top the boards aren't good team players as they never revive rarely help with objectives because they are to busy padding their score and spawn nuke in wave 11 just to pad their score. As long as you are not bleeding out every wave and are shooting at things and drawing some aggro score isn't that big a deal. But if you are scoring less than half the next person above you you may be in the wrong difficulty.

[ArcaptSSX]

I get the arguments, they make sense, i can understand that plat is boring to you, but how come gold doesn't get boring in its own way too? While the game isn't balanced for plat, most UR weapons and a few rares feel ridiculously powerful on gold. A gun like the PPR X feels almost wasted: Even on plat it hurts bosses a lot.
When you're trying to run record-fast speed runs, you're not challenging the game, only yourself and the competition doesn't regenerate itself as it would in a pvp game. How can the game remain fun at all in these conditions?

[Original Twigman]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Original Stikman wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

Lord_Sirian wrote...

^ Skill is less rewarded in terms of, being a better shot, knowing the mechanics better etc. helps less on Plat than it does on Gold. Since bosses are usually slow and easy to hit.

That.

Platinum IS a DPS fest. Sure, you can do it completely different and compensate your Avenger's laughable DPS with skill (read, not dying before they do, yes ... very skillfully!), or maybe Asari Evasion melee everything to death.


But it isn't required at all. You can do all the stuff you can imagine with raw skill ... or you can just slap on a Piranha and DPS your way to easy victory.

Its plainly not a good or valid argument as you can do the exact same thing for gold.

You are not even trying to understand our point. Do I need to talk to you as if you were speaking another language?

DPS is the most defining part on how to beat Platinum unless you want to spend hours kiting. That is a fact. You can NOT clear a Platinum match in the same time with an Avenger than with a Harrier by compensating with skill. It is flat out NOT possible!

Anyone who says otherwise has either not played Platinum ever before or is delibaretely trolling. And I am done with this argument.

Your last two statements makes me feel as though you don't have a lot of experience with argumentation/debate.

You are right. You cannot clear a platinum match with an avenger as fast as you can with a harrier.... you also cannot clear a gold match with an avenger as fast as you can with a harrier.... 

I got your point, and I get it because it isn't valid.

Modifié par Original Stikman, 25 janvier 2013 - 12:11 .

[Dunvi]

ArcaptSSX wrote...

I get the arguments, they make sense, i can understand that plat is boring to you, but how come gold doesn't get boring in its own way too? While the game isn't balanced for plat, most UR weapons and a few rares feel ridiculously powerful on gold. A gun like the PPR X feels almost wasted: Even on plat it hurts bosses a lot.
When you're trying to run record-fast speed runs, you're not challenging the game, only yourself and the competition doesn't regenerate itself as it would in a pvp game. How can the game remain fun at all in these conditions?

There's a reason games with people on my friends list regularly devolve into troll fests... all krosent melee, all common characters and weapons, all volus games, crazy builds like melee demolisher and chargeless slayer...