210 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Meandering through the galaxy map, I came across this planet:

The Krogan Rebellions began in the asari colony of Lusia. After centuries of unabated expansion, the krogan finally forced the Council's hand when they tried to annex this world. Aware that in a generation, Lusia could be a staging base for an invasion of Thessia, the Council came to the colony's defense. They cut the krogan supply lines off at Thessia's mass relay and inflicted heavy casualties. The krogan here surrendered, but others across the galaxy were enraged. Lusia became the catalyst for a much greater war.

Thoughts?

WTF are you talking about? It says right there that the Krogan were conquring worlds right and left until they tried to take over Lusia. How do you think they were annexing it? By giving out vouchers for free starship washes? No, they were killing Asari. Sounds like the Krogan fired the first 50 shots before the council finally said "enough".

It says nothing about Krogan killing Asari or "conquering" planets. They simply move to a new place, outbreed whoever was already living there, and once they form the majority of the population, claim it as their own without a shot fired.

Intimidating? Threatening? Hell yes. Violent? Potentially. But it sounds like the Council fired the shot heard 'round the world.

[Forst1999]

"Annexing" normally isn't peaceful. As Liamv2 wrote, it means taking away something, in this case a planet, from someone. There can be special circumstances, but in the case we discuss here there isn't a single sign that we should interpret the word "annex" differently than normal.

[Steelcan]

jkflipflopDAO wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...
Meandering through the galaxy map, I came across this planet:

The Krogan Rebellions began in the asari colony of Lusia. After centuries of unabated expansion, the krogan finally forced the Council's hand when they tried to annex this world. Aware that in a generation, Lusia could be a staging base for an invasion of Thessia, the Council came to the colony's defense. They cut the krogan supply lines off at Thessia's mass relay and inflicted heavy casualties. The krogan here surrendered, but others across the galaxy were enraged. Lusia became the catalyst for a much greater war.

Thoughts?

WTF are you talking about? It says right there that the Krogan were conquring worlds right and left until they tried to take over Lusia. How do you think they were annexing it? By giving out vouchers for free starship washes? No, they were killing Asari. Sounds like the Krogan fired the first 50 shots before the council finally said "enough".

that's a lovely statement, now please back it up with evidence.

[Steelcan]

Forst1999 wrote...

"Annexing" normally isn't peaceful. As Liamv2 wrote, it means taking away something, in this case a planet, from someone. There can be special circumstances, but in the case we discuss here there isn't a single sign that we should interpret the word "annex" differently than normal.

. Well Germany's annexations were all peaceful.  The Sudetenland, Rhone river valley, Austria

[fiendishchicken]

Yes the council did fire the first shot, and justifiably.

The greatest problem with the Krogan is that collectively, they really can't control themselves collectively. Their culture was based on the belief that numbers and violence meant dominance (especially since biologically, they get off on it), so I'd say that the clans were constantly trying to out-do each other and gain the advantage of numbers and strength. Eventually, this attitude was going to expand and spill over to the other races. If I remember right, the Krogan expansion started seeping onto other worlds of the non-council species, who lodged complaints as the Krogan took over the world, not by military invasion per se, but by the sheer number of migrants who came in and just choked the planet's sustainability. The Krogan have no concepts of environmental or ecological sustainability. They'll use up a planet's resources at an incredible rate, then move on. I'm also willing to say that ay species that tried to put their foot down against the Krogan advance on a planet was swept aside, by the other major Krogan flaw - their pride.

When the Asari world was targeted for expansion by the ever growing Krogan, that's when the council finally saw that nothing short of a military action would deter the Krogan. Really, that wouldn't have worked either though since the Krogan would be outraged that someone would try to stop their growth. Nothing short of a full cultural renaissance that radically changed their views and breeding practices would have stopped the Krogan at that point.

Really though, the Council should have acted sooner. The problem they made was that they didn't fire the first shot sooner, telling the Krogan to back off while they still didn't have the numbers or capability to retaliate. Instead, they followed a policy of semi-appeasement, and full-minded apathy.

[Wulfram]

Steelcan wrote...

No I'm passing them off as plausible scenarios supported by the description not facts.  Sorry if that was u clear.

Soldiers would imply an invasion, not an annexation.  That isn't supported by the dedescription

Catch-22

My interpretation would be that the Krogan probably landed a bunch of troops - too many for the local Lusian forces to resist - and basically said "This is our world now" and bet on the generally non-confrontational Asari accepting that as a fait accompli rather than being prepared to force the issue.

[Steelcan]

Wulfram wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

No I'm passing them off as plausible scenarios supported by the description not facts.  Sorry if that was u clear.

Soldiers would imply an invasion, not an annexation.  That isn't supported by the dedescription

Catch-22

My interpretation would be that the Krogan probably landed a bunch of troops - too many for the local Lusian forces to resist - and basically said "This is our world now" and bet on the generally non-confrontational Asari accepting that as a fait accompli rather than being prepared to force the issue.

. And I'm guessing they dropped massive amounts of people who started breeding like... Well Krogan 

[fiendishchicken]

Steelcan wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

"Annexing" normally isn't peaceful. As Liamv2 wrote, it means taking away something, in this case a planet, from someone. There can be special circumstances, but in the case we discuss here there isn't a single sign that we should interpret the word "annex" differently than normal.

. Well Germany's annexations were all peaceful.  The Sudetenland, Rhone river valley, Austria

If you want to call threats of war against Czechoslovakia in 1939 peaceful unless they capitulated to the N4Zl's peaceful, go ahead man.

The N4Zl's weren't peaceful. They dedicated much of their culture to violence against the lesser sub-humans. They threatened nations with war if they didn't give them what Hitler wanted.

Read about Anschluss. It was a subtext for war.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 24 janvier 2013 - 04:10 .

[DeinonSlayer]

fiendishchicken wrote...

*snip*.

Good read. Can't say I disagree with any particular point.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 24 janvier 2013 - 04:09 .

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

If you want to call threats of war against Czechoslovakia in 1939 peaceful unless they capitulated to the N4Zl's peaceful, go ahead man.

The N4Zl's weren't peaceful. They dedicated much of their culture to violence against the lesser sub-humans. They threatened nations with war if they didn't give them what Hitler wanted.

. I was just pointing out that annexation isn't always violent.

[Forst1999]

Steelcan wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

"Annexing" normally isn't peaceful. As Liamv2 wrote, it means taking away something, in this case a planet, from someone. There can be special circumstances, but in the case we discuss here there isn't a single sign that we should interpret the word "annex" differently than normal.

. Well Germany's annexations were all peaceful.  The Sudetenland, Rhone river valley, Austria

Don't want to discuss history, especially german history 33-45 here, never ends well. But that's what I meant with "special circumstances". However, we have no signs that Lusia was anything other than hostile and violent, which is the normal interpretation of "annexing". Without inventing our own facts, the piece of text cleary speaks of krogan aggression and self-defense of the Council.

[Steelcan]

Forst1999 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

"Annexing" normally isn't peaceful. As Liamv2 wrote, it means taking away something, in this case a planet, from someone. There can be special circumstances, but in the case we discuss here there isn't a single sign that we should interpret the word "annex" differently than normal.

. Well Germany's annexations were all peaceful.  The Sudetenland, Rhone river valley, Austria

Don't want to discuss history, especially german history 33-45 here, never ends well. But that's what I meant with "special circumstances". However, we have no signs that Lusia was anything other than hostile and violent, which is the normal interpretation of "annexing". Without inventing our own facts, the piece of text cleary speaks of krogan aggression and self-defense of the Council.

. Nowhere does it state an invasion by the Krogan.

Modifié par Steelcan, 24 janvier 2013 - 04:13 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

"Annexing" normally isn't peaceful. As Liamv2 wrote, it means taking away something, in this case a planet, from someone. There can be special circumstances, but in the case we discuss here there isn't a single sign that we should interpret the word "annex" differently than normal.

. Well Germany's annexations were all peaceful.  The Sudetenland, Rhone river valley, Austria

Don't want to discuss history, especially german history 33-45 here, never ends well. But that's what I meant with "special circumstances". However, we have no signs that Lusia was anything other than hostile and violent, which is the normal interpretation of "annexing". Without inventing our own facts, the piece of text cleary speaks of krogan aggression and self-defense of the Council.

. Nowhere does it imply an invasion by the Krogan.

Nowhere in the post you just quoted is the word 'invasion' used, so that's a strawman.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...
Don't want to discuss history, especially german history 33-45 here, never ends well. But that's what I meant with "special circumstances". However, we have no signs that Lusia was anything other than hostile and violent, which is the normal interpretation of "annexing". Without inventing our own facts, the piece of text cleary speaks of krogan aggression and self-defense of the Council.

. Nowhere does it imply an invasion by the Krogan.

Nowhere in the post you just quoted is the word 'invasion' used, so that's a strawman.

. Hostile, violent, Krogan aggression.  Implication is clear

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

If you want to call threats of war against Czechoslovakia in 1939 peaceful unless they capitulated to the N4Zl's peaceful, go ahead man.

The N4Zl's weren't peaceful. They dedicated much of their culture to violence against the lesser sub-humans. They threatened nations with war if they didn't give them what Hitler wanted.

. I was just pointing out that annexation isn't always violent.

Doesn't make it right or justified.

[Steelcan]

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

If you want to call threats of war against Czechoslovakia in 1939 peaceful unless they capitulated to the N4Zl's peaceful, go ahead man.

The N4Zl's weren't peaceful. They dedicated much of their culture to violence against the lesser sub-humans. They threatened nations with war if they didn't give them what Hitler wanted.

. I was just pointing out that annexation isn't always violent.

Doesn't make it right or justified.

. Absolutely.  But the topic in question is who shot first

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...
Don't want to discuss history, especially german history 33-45 here, never ends well. But that's what I meant with "special circumstances". However, we have no signs that Lusia was anything other than hostile and violent, which is the normal interpretation of "annexing". Without inventing our own facts, the piece of text cleary speaks of krogan aggression and self-defense of the Council.

. Nowhere does it imply an invasion by the Krogan.

Nowhere in the post you just quoted is the word 'invasion' used, so that's a strawman.

. Hostile, violent, Krogan aggression.  Implication is clear

Nope. 

An annexation by the krogan is not going to be peaceful.

An annexation of an established asari world next door to Thessia itself, is definitely not going to be peaceful.

I'm struggling to imagine what situation you think could possibly have occured. 

What, hundreds of krogan ships suddenly appear in orbit around Lusia, and the hundreds of millions of asari are just like, okay then, come on in, annex us. 

No. 

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

If you want to call threats of war against Czechoslovakia in 1939 peaceful unless they capitulated to the N4Zl's peaceful, go ahead man.

The N4Zl's weren't peaceful. They dedicated much of their culture to violence against the lesser sub-humans. They threatened nations with war if they didn't give them what Hitler wanted.

. I was just pointing out that annexation isn't always violent.

Doesn't make it right or justified.

. Absolutely.  But the topic in question is who shot first

Krogan. By their clandestine "peaceful" conquest.

[Steelcan]

No I'm imagining thousands of Krogan landing and the Asari being powerless to stop them from breeding out of control.

[Steelcan]

pirate1802 wrote...

Krogan. By their clandestine "peaceful" conquest.

The Krogan loaded the gun and sat on the powder keg.  But the council pulled the trigger.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

No I'm imagining thousands of Krogan landing and the Asari being powerless to stop them from breeding out of control.

Right, so why would the asari just let them land, and how would millions of notoriously aggressive, giant, warrior lizards affect the asari population?

[DeinonSlayer]

Steelcan wrote...

No I'm imagining thousands of Krogan landing and the Asari being powerless to stop them from breeding out of control.

Krogan take the concept of "anchor babies" to a whole new level. 

[legion999]

“Council came to the colony's defense"

Yeah that implies that this wasn't a peaceful annexation.

[Brhino]

The council may have literally fired the first shot, as in being the first to discharge a weapon.

That's pointless semantics, though. The Krogan moved into territory that was occupied by the Asari. They had no right to do that, and thus the Asari had every right to remove them.

Now, if something like that happened in real life - say me and a bunch of my American friends moved into Canada, and declared it part of America - the Canadian authorities could round us up, arrest us, and deport us. It wouldn't have to be violent if me and my friends cooperated when the authorities arrived. If we didn't cooperate then the Canadian government's only options would be to use force or to give up the land.

If you think a group of annexing Krogan could be removed peacefully, you're inventing your own version of the Krogan.

The Krogan may not have literally committed the first act of violence. They did, however, create a situation in which the council's only options were surrender or violent response.

[fiendishchicken]

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Krogan. By their clandestine "peaceful" conquest.

The Krogan loaded the gun and sat on the powder keg.  But the council pulled the trigger.

Yeah. And you're blaming the council for starting the fight.

I'm no fan of the council, and in this case, they didn't shoot quickly enough. 

As I said, they should have stopped the Krogan before the problem exponentially exploded.