210 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Krogan. By their clandestine "peaceful" conquest.

The Krogan loaded the gun and sat on the powder keg.  But the council pulled the trigger.

I'm assuming the Krogan would have known how this would play out. Landing on a planet already owned by another and outbreeding them and claiming it as their own, and that too. so close to their capital planet.. I'm still not convinced the Krogan aren't the first aggressors.

[Belisarius25]

Steelcan wrote...

Forst1999 wrote...

"Annexing" normally isn't peaceful. As Liamv2 wrote, it means taking away something, in this case a planet, from someone. There can be special circumstances, but in the case we discuss here there isn't a single sign that we should interpret the word "annex" differently than normal.

. Well Germany's annexations were all peaceful.  The Sudetenland, Rhone river valley, Austria

The Austrian annexation was peaceful only if you discount Dollfuss' murder at the hands of Austrian ****s (prompted by the Germans) in 1934, the ensuing tensions with Italy moving troops to the border to defend Austrian independence, Hitler's violent threats to Schuschnigg at Berchtesgarden, the deployment of German troops to (and closing of) the German/Austrian border and the ultimatum Hitler gave to Schuschnigg when the latter tried to defend Austrian independence through a plebiscite.

The Sudentenland, similarly, is only peaceful if you ignore the Germans mobilizing on the Czech border, the German demands/ultimatums to the Czechs threatening an invasion/violence if demands weren't met, the ****-instigated agitations by the Sudeten ****s, etc. The political agreement that resulted from negotiations at Godesberg and (more famously) Munich was the direct result of the threat of imminent force and a larger war, you can get a general sense of the mood from Chamberlain's speech on the crisis;

How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war.

The Rhineland annexation was peaceful in that there was no fighting, but it involved sending German troops into a demilitarized zone and the French were contemplating war in response (ironically it was the generals who wanted to avoid a confrontation, afraid it would lead to a general war, while the politicians wanted to strike back).

Annexation always involves some kind of force, be it military or political (or both/political with the threat of military action). Given the generally accepted information we have on how Krogan used to act, it's odd to claim that the Krogan 'annexation' of an asari world would be anything but aggressive.

Modifié par Belisarius25, 24 janvier 2013 - 04:31 .

[Ledgend1221]

"History is written by the victors."

[Forst1999]

Ok, compred this to the codex entry on the Krogan rebellions:

After the Rachni War, the quick-breeding krogan expanded at the expense of their neighbors. Warlords leveraged their veteran soldiers to seize living space while the Council races were still grateful. Over centuries, the krogan conquered world after world. There was always "just one more" needed. When the Council finally demanded withdrawal from the asari colony of Lusia, krogan Overlord Kredak stormed off the Citadel, daring the Council to take their worlds back.

"Seizing" the land definitly is hostile. "Conquering" is so too. And if you dare someone to take back his property by force, you are responsible for the violence.
So ok, looks like the council fired the first shot. Though I don't see what that changes. The Krogan were the aggressors.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Ledgend1221 wrote...

"History is written by the victors."

Seems like in this case Krogan DNA was also (re)written by the victors lolz.

[fiendishchicken]

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Krogan. By their clandestine "peaceful" conquest.

The Krogan loaded the gun and sat on the powder keg.  But the council pulled the trigger.

I'm assuming the Krogan would have known how this would play out. Landing on a planet already owned by another and outbreeding them and claiming it as their own, and that too. so close to their capital planet.. I'm still not convinced the Krogan aren't the first aggressors.

They were. The Krogan wasn't quite daring the council to go to war. In fact I believe they weren't expecting it. The Krogan thought that everything they were doing was well within the rights, and that every species owed it to them for stopping the Rachni.

But a cap needed to be put on the broken well a lot sooner. The Krogan really should have been limited to a star cluster, and I am in full support of keeping any naval vessels out of their hands at all times.

[Steelcan]

Well I'd shave to say the Krogan were accurate in their assessment. The Council would have lost without the Turians to save their asses.

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
Krogan. By their clandestine "peaceful" conquest.

The Krogan loaded the gun and sat on the powder keg.  But the council pulled the trigger.

Yeah. And you're blaming the council for starting the fight.

I'm no fan of the council, and in this case, they didn't shoot quickly enough. 

As I said, they should have stopped the Krogan before the problem exponentially exploded.

. The council started the fighting, but Krogan set it up.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

No I'm imagining thousands of Krogan landing and the Asari being powerless to stop them from breeding out of control.

Right, so why would the asari just let them land, and how would millions of notoriously aggressive, giant, warrior lizards affect the asari population?

. What could they do to stop them?  Asari aren't warriors by nature like the Krogan.  It's an invasive species scenario.

[Forst1999]

fiendishchicken wrote...

They were. The Krogan wasn't quite daring the council to go to war. In fact I believe they weren't expecting it. The Krogan thought that everything they were doing was well within the rights, and that every species owed it to them for stopping the Rachni.

Wouldn't put it that way. I don't think they thought they were in the rights, they just (rightly) thought the council couldn't stop them.  What's right stops to matter then, at least to some people. Fits more with the Krogan ambassador's behavior this way.
Whether they thought the council would try to defend itself is an intersting question, but I see no way of answering it. I guess it did not matter to the Krogan. If they can bully the council into giving them what they want, fine. If they can fight an inferior enemy who's still strong enough to be intersting, that's fine too.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

No I'm imagining thousands of Krogan landing and the Asari being powerless to stop them from breeding out of control.

Right, so why would the asari just let them land, and how would millions of notoriously aggressive, giant, warrior lizards affect the asari population?

. What could they do to stop them?  Asari aren't warriors by nature like the Krogan.  It's an invasive species scenario.

Answer the questions instead of avoiding the point. 

[fiendishchicken]

Steelcan wrote...

Well I'd shave to say the Krogan were accurate in their assessment. The Council would have lost without the Turians to save their asses.

Would you rather have the council ruling things or the Krogan?

[DeinonSlayer]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Well I'd shave to say the Krogan were accurate in their assessment. The Council would have lost without the Turians to save their asses.

Would you rather have the council ruling things or the Krogan?

...I'm thinking...

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Well I'd shave to say the Krogan were accurate in their assessment. The Council would have lost without the Turians to save their asses.

Would you rather have the council ruling things or the Krogan?

. Neither to be honest.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

No I'm imagining thousands of Krogan landing and the Asari being powerless to stop them from breeding out of control.

Right, so why would the asari just let them land, and how would millions of notoriously aggressive, giant, warrior lizards affect the asari population?

. What could they do to stop them?  Asari aren't warriors by nature like the Krogan.  It's an invasive species scenario.

Answer the questions instead of avoiding the point. 

. I did

[gisle]

Steelcan wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

The Krogan were invading a council world. How is that not "firing the first shot"?

. It would seem this wasnt a barbarian horde bashing down the gates.  But a peaceful occupation that turned violent after they were attacked.

Krogan and 'peaceful' flipped over eachother is a massive oxymoron.

. Show me in that description where it says that the Krogan violently attacked the colony.

The burden of proof lies with the accuser, which is the OP that accuse the council of firing the first shot.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

No I'm imagining thousands of Krogan landing and the Asari being powerless to stop them from breeding out of control.

Right, so why would the asari just let them land, and how would millions of notoriously aggressive, giant, warrior lizards affect the asari population?

. What could they do to stop them?  Asari aren't warriors by nature like the Krogan.  It's an invasive species scenario.

Answer the questions instead of avoiding the point. 

. I did

So the krogan used force to occupy the colony, and annex the asari population. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 24 janvier 2013 - 05:00 .

[Gruntburner]

Yes, because forcibly "annexing" planets washes the Krogan of all blame.

[Mouton_Alpha]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

No I'm imagining thousands of Krogan landing and the Asari being powerless to stop them from breeding out of control.

Right, so why would the asari just let them land, and how would millions of notoriously aggressive, giant, warrior lizards affect the asari population?

. What could they do to stop them?  Asari aren't warriors by nature like the Krogan.  It's an invasive species scenario.

Answer the questions instead of avoiding the point. 

Allow me.

It might have started with a relatively small-scale immigration. The Asari allowed it because they like flowers and things and Krogans saved them from the Rachni. Always nice to have some Krogan mates and those heavy crates won't lug themselves, also some dangerous local fauna could you use culling. Then the Krogans started multiplying like rabbits and things started looking awkward. Then their relatives arrived. And their relatives. And they started to multiply too. Then, before you know, the Krogan outnumbered the Asari 20 to 1. The Krogan didn't even have to raise their voices in anger for the planet to be theirs.

Or it was a big group of civillian transports. They approached and said "hello friends! we are landing now! kisses!" and ignored suggestions to the contrary. The Asari, faced with a choice of either firing at their allies or inaction, remained passive, hoping that the Council will solve the problem somehow.

Which they did.

[gisle]

Two relevant definitions of 'annex' in this context.
- to incorporate (territory) into the domain of a city, country, or state: Germany annexed part of Czechoslovakia.
- to take or appropriate, especially without permission.

Incorporating other people's territory into your own is an act of war. Also, note the "without permission".

Contrary to popular belief in this thread, it is not a synonym to mass immigration.

Modifié par Gisle-Aune, 24 janvier 2013 - 05:06 .

[garrusfan1]

this one would point to the act of appeasement for germany that led to WW2 which is essentialy want the council did until they had enough like britain and france did when germany invaded poland. The krogan decided to take that asari world the asari said no but the krogan took it anyways when the council said leave that world the krogan ambasodor said come and get it which was essentially an act of war

[Mouton_Alpha]

Gisle-Aune wrote...

Contrary to popular belief in this thread, it is not a synonym to mass immigration.

And even if it was, mass immigration without permission is a hostile act as well.

[wright1978]

Wulfram wrote...

The Krogan were invading a council world. How is that not "firing the first shot"?

Yeah this.

[fiendishchicken]

Steelcan wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Well I'd shave to say the Krogan were accurate in their assessment. The Council would have lost without the Turians to save their asses.

Would you rather have the council ruling things or the Krogan?

. Neither to be honest.

Well then who do you want? The humans? Please. We can't even get our smut together.

As much as I hate the council, they really are the only way it could work, with some refinement.

As Clint Eastwood said (as Dirty Harry) in 'Magnum Force', "I hate the goddamn system. But until someone comes along with some changes that make sense, I'll stick to it."

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Barquiel wrote...

That's like blaming Poland, France and England for the outbreak of WW2.

No, it's not. If they attacked the Quarians on that world, what was it called? That would be like blaming Poland.

What the Krogan were doing was occupying the Rheinland and saying "try and stop us."

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 24 janvier 2013 - 05:37 .