210 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Just to be clear, I think the council was completely justified in both going to war with the Krogan and deploying the genophage.

But the point of the OP is that the council were the ones who pulled the first trigger.

The Krogan may have put them in a position that this was inevtibale but the pont is the Council fired first.

Modifié par Steelcan, 24 janvier 2013 - 07:18 .

[Han Shot First]

Steelcan wrote...

The Krogan may have put them in a position that this was inevtibale but the pont is the Council fired first.

That is an assumption however. Truth be told we don't know whether any shots were fired in the occupation of Lusia.

There might have been a battle, and there might not have been. The Krogan may have caused the first casualties in the conflict.

[Steelcan]

Han Shot First wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Krogan may have put them in a position that this was inevtibale but the pont is the Council fired first.

That is an assumption however. Truth be told we don't know whether any shots were fired in the occupation of Lusia.

There might have been a battle, and there might not have been. The Krogan may have caused the first casualties in the conflict.

. In all likelyhood yes, but this is speculation not supported directly by the description in the OP.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth write...

This isn't hard to understand I agree.  In the description there is no evidence of direct aggression by the Krogan.  If I missed it please point it out.  Is is it reasonable to assume that the Krogan were hostile? Yes.  But it's also plausible that the Krogan were simply threatening the Asari by their presence.  

It's not implausible, it's just incredibly unlikely. it's far more likely that they went in and took what they wanted using force, because that's the way the krogan have always been, they way they acted for years preceeding, because they refused to leave when asked, fought when confronted, couldn't 'out-compete' on a colony that well established, and the word used is 'annex', which does not imply something passive or peaceful.

. Annexation can be peaceful as I've demonstrated numerous times.  Is is always? No, but it still can be.

You've not demonstrated a peaceful annexation, and regardless, for the reasons I already stated, the chances are against it being so. 

The very fact that it's the krogan doing the annexing should be enough. 

And if the Krogan flat out attacked a council world then that would have been what started the Krogan rebellions.  Not the council cutting off supplies to a stranded Krogan populace, civilian or military.

This started the Krogan Rebellions, but the Council can hardly be blamed because they were the first side to take direct action. 

[fiendishchicken]

Steelcan wrote...
The Krogan may have put them in a position that this was inevtibale[b] but the pont is the Council fired first.

Why is that an issue for you anyway?

[Steelcan]

I've demonstrated three peaceful annexations.

And I agree. The Council was right to do what they did. They should have acted earlier honestly. But regardless they fired the first shot in a situation made by the Krogan.

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Krogan may have put them in a position that this was inevtibale but the pont is the Council fired first.

That is an assumption however. Truth be told we don't know whether any shots were fired in the occupation of Lusia.

There might have been a battle, and there might not have been. The Krogan may have caused the first casualties in the conflict.

. In all likelyhood yes, but this is speculation not supported directly by the description in the OP.

Taken from the wikia, so a grain of salt must always be applied, but:

The causes of the Rebellions stemmed from concessions the Citadel Council made to the krogan in gratitude for their service in the Rachni Wars. The krogan were given the conquered rachni planets along with several pristine, habitable worlds. However, due to the harsh conditions of their homeworld Tuchanka, krogan birth rates were quite high in order to sustain their numbers. When they spread to other planets, their naturally swift breeding cycle and lack of sufficient predators resulted in the krogan spreading throughout the galaxy like a plague.

The Council became concerned as the krogan began to annex territory from other Citadel races. The krogan became more aggressive as other races tried to protect their worlds, until the krogan attempted to settle the asari colony of Lusia. When told by the Council to leave, the krogan refused. Their representative, Overlord Kredak, stormed out of the Council chambers, daring them to take their worlds back. War broke out afterward.

Clearly, one of Grunt's DNA grandaddies just so happened to be an agressive Krogan warlord who was part of a wave of migrating Krogan taking other worlds by force, and without permission of the previous owners. Krogans are clearly at fault here, the Council was simply defending itself. 

The Council taking the first shot is irrelevant. The Krogans would've eventually expanded to hit a major world like Thessia, if given enough time. Time that the Council decided not to give them.

Modifié par JBPBRC, 24 janvier 2013 - 07:28 .

[Steelcan]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
The Krogan may have put them in a position that this was inevtibale[b] but the pont is the Council fired first.

Why is that an issue for you anyway?

. It's the point of the thread.  The Council fired first.

[xsdob]

While incidents of ethnic cleansing has occurred for similar reasons stated in this thread, such as a growing minority population, xenophobia, culture differences, and outside alliances seeking to per-emptivly stomp out possible future security risk, it doesn't seem like that was the case.

Krogan had a long standing tense relationship with the council and other races, constantly doing whatever they wanted becasue they were the muscle of the galaxy's defenses. Their ambassador even at one point refused to negotiate a cease of their migrations, cutting ties to the council and turning the krogan people into a collective rouge state. Therefore, when more than likley the krogan tried to claim the asari world for their own after more than likley living there and gaining a sizeable population to gain power, the council stepped in.

It would be like if iranian immigrants moved into a turkish city enough so that they were the majority, than asked to become part of iran officially. More than likley turkey would feel threatened by their long standing enemy gaining territory inside their region of the world, and ask their allies the US to militarily intervene, which we would most likley do.

[Steelcan]

JBPBRC wrote...


The Council taking the first shot is irrelevant. The Krogans would've eventually expanded to hit a major world like Thessia, if given enough time. Time that the Council decided not to give them.

. It's the point of the OP

[xsdob]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...


The Council taking the first shot is irrelevant. The Krogans would've eventually expanded to hit a major world like Thessia, if given enough time. Time that the Council decided not to give them.

. It's the point of the OP

He's got a point there JB.

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...


The Council taking the first shot is irrelevant. The Krogans would've eventually expanded to hit a major world like Thessia, if given enough time. Time that the Council decided not to give them.

. It's the point of the OP

I don't see where it ever indicated that the Council fired the first shot. It was perhaps the first official response to unchecked Krogan breeding, but due to the simple fact of the Krogan forcefully annexing other worlds, the Krogan are clearly the aggressors here. Not the Council.

But, as I said, this is irrelevant. The Rebellions would've broken out anyway.

Modifié par JBPBRC, 24 janvier 2013 - 07:32 .

[Steelcan]

JBPBRC wrote...

I don't see where it ever indicated that the Council fired the first shot. It was perhaps the first official response to unchecked Krogan breeding, but due to the simple fact of the Krogan forcefully annexing other worlds, the Krogan are clearly the aggressors here. Not the Council.

But, as I said, this is irrelevant. The Rebellions would've broken out anyway.

. It is definitely the point of the description.

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

I don't see where it ever indicated that the Council fired the first shot. It was perhaps the first official response to unchecked Krogan breeding, but due to the simple fact of the Krogan forcefully annexing other worlds, the Krogan are clearly the aggressors here. Not the Council.

But, as I said, this is irrelevant. The Rebellions would've broken out anyway.

. It is definitely the point of the description.

While completely going over the point that the Krogans were forcefully taking worlds without permission, and ignoring the Council when they asked them to stop. Lusia was the first action taken by the Council in self-defense, not necessarily the first aggressive action in the Rebellions as a whole. Which is what the Krogan expansion most definitely was.

[Steelcan]

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...
I don't see where it ever indicated that the Council fired the first shot. It was perhaps the first official response to unchecked Krogan breeding, but due to the simple fact of the Krogan forcefully annexing other worlds, the Krogan are clearly the aggressors here. Not the Council.
But, as I said, this is irrelevant. The Rebellions would've broken out anyway.

. It is definitely the point of the description.

While completely going over the point that the Krogans were forcefully taking worlds without permission, and ignoring the Council when they asked them to stop. Lusia was the first action taken by the Council in self-defense, not necessarily the first aggressive action in the Rebellions as a whole. Which is what the Krogan expansion most definitely was.

. Have you read Catch-22?

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

I've demonstrated three peaceful annexations.

No, you haven't. You've demonstrated three pretty hostile takeovers of smaller nations by more powerful factions, but that didn't involve a direct invasion or declaration  of war.

And I agree. The Council was right to do what they did. They should have acted earlier honestly. But regardless they fired the first shot in a situation made by the Krogan.

Who fired first is pretty irrelevant in an already volatile situation. 

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...
I don't see where it ever indicated that the Council fired the first shot. It was perhaps the first official response to unchecked Krogan breeding, but due to the simple fact of the Krogan forcefully annexing other worlds, the Krogan are clearly the aggressors here. Not the Council.
But, as I said, this is irrelevant. The Rebellions would've broken out anyway.

. It is definitely the point of the description.

While completely going over the point that the Krogans were forcefully taking worlds without permission, and ignoring the Council when they asked them to stop. Lusia was the first action taken by the Council in self-defense, not necessarily the first aggressive action in the Rebellions as a whole. Which is what the Krogan expansion most definitely was.

. Have you read Catch-22?

Your point? Basic facts will always lead to the Krogans being responsible. They're an aggressive, hyperviolent, bloodraging warrior culture, who, up until the Yahg get discovered, are the biggest, meanest mutha****as in the galaxy. To expect them to peacefully settle in with Asari and Salarians and share the wealth like a bunch of sick Quarians with a tummyache is downright absurd.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I've demonstrated three peaceful annexations.

No, you haven't. You've demonstrated three pretty hostile takeovers of smaller nations by more powerful factions, but that didn't involve a direct invasion or declaration  of war.

. So they weren't a direct invasion, or open war, or even all that violent really, but they're not peaceful?  Do explain

[KingZayd]

Steelcan wrote...

Nowhere in that description did it mention that the Krogan attacked the world. They populated it.

"annex" implies they tried to conquer the planet. Doesn't sound peaceful at all.

[Steelcan]

JBPBRC wrote...

Your point? Basic facts will always lead to the Krogans being responsible. They're an aggressive, hyperviolent, bloodraging warrior culture, who, up until the Yahg get discovered, are the biggest, meanest mutha****as in the galaxy. To expect them to peacefully settle in with Asari and Salarians and share the wealth like a bunch of sick Quarians with a tummyache is downright absurd.

. My point with Catch-22 is that the Krogan definitely ascribe to one of its permutations.  "You have the right to do anything you can't be stopped from doing" that's their viewpoint.  

Were the Krogan ultimately responsible? Yes, but they were not the ones who fired first, which is the point of the thread.

[Steelcan]

KingZayd wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Nowhere in that description did it mention that the Krogan attacked the world. They populated it.

"annex" implies they tried to conquer the planet. Doesn't sound peaceful at all.

. I've wasted enough time explaining that annexation isn't always violent.

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Your point? Basic facts will always lead to the Krogans being responsible. They're an aggressive, hyperviolent, bloodraging warrior culture, who, up until the Yahg get discovered, are the biggest, meanest mutha****as in the galaxy. To expect them to peacefully settle in with Asari and Salarians and share the wealth like a bunch of sick Quarians with a tummyache is downright absurd.

. My point with Catch-22 is that the Krogan definitely ascribe to one of its permutations.  "You have the right to do anything you can't be stopped from doing" that's their viewpoint.  

Were the Krogan ultimately responsible? Yes, but they were not the ones who fired first, which is the point of the thread.

Pure assumption. Nothing more. 

Again, I point to the Krogans as the main example. Them being the violent warrior culture they are, overextending and annexing planets against the will of their previous owners, implies a certain level of violence.

Hell, even Wrex, who is slightly more sensible than most Krogan, needs Eve to help prevent him from going too far with any of his ideas. Krogans, by their very nature, were the aggressors. As I said, this is only the first recorded instance of the Council saying enough is enough and defending themselves, not that this was the first shot ever fired on either side.

[Steelcan]

I'm talking about a literal bullet fired.

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

I'm talking about a literal bullet fired.

Again, no proof. Mere assumption. Did the Krogans get a little violent during an annexation and rough some colonists up with some gunfire prior to this? We don't know. This is only the first official action of Council self-defense.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I've demonstrated three peaceful annexations.

No, you haven't. You've demonstrated three pretty hostile takeovers of smaller nations by more powerful factions, but that didn't involve a direct invasion or declaration  of war.

. So they weren't a direct invasion, or open war, or even all that violent really, but they're not peaceful?  Do explain

It's already been described to you by people more educated than me on the subject. There doesn't have to be open conflict for it to be violent, or at least not peaceful. 

Again though, the krogan aren't going to annex anywhere peacefully. 

Plus, that's a contradictory statement. If there was an invasion, or open war, it wouldn't be an annexation. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 24 janvier 2013 - 07:57 .