210 réponses à ce sujet

[Mouton_Alpha]

JBPBRC wrote...

The Council taking the first shot is irrelevant. The Krogans would've eventually expanded to hit a major world like Thessia, if given enough time. Time that the Council decided not to give them.

Exactly. "Firing the first shot" is not some magical barrier between being good or evil.

[Steelcan]

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'm talking about a literal bullet fired.

Again, no proof. Mere assumption. Did the Krogans get a little violent during an annexation and rough some colonists up with some gunfire prior to this? We don't know. This is only the first official action of Council self-defense.

. The first shot literally fired in the Krogan rebellions was fired by the council

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'm talking about a literal bullet fired.

Again, no proof. Mere assumption. Did the Krogans get a little violent during an annexation and rough some colonists up with some gunfire prior to this? We don't know. This is only the first official action of Council self-defense.

. The first shot literally fired in the Krogan rebellions was fired by the council

Prove it. Prove that the aggressive Krogan warrior culture peacefully annexed every single world, against the will of those already living there, without firing a shot. You can't. The idea of the Krogan of all races doing such a thing is laughable.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
I've demonstrated three peaceful annexations.

No, you haven't. You've demonstrated three pretty hostile takeovers of smaller nations by more powerful factions, but that didn't involve a direct invasion or declaration  of war.

. So they weren't a direct invasion, or open war, or even all that violent really, but they're not peaceful?  Do explain

It's already been described to you by people more educated than me on the subject. There doesn't have to be open conflict for it to be violent, or at least not peaceful. 

Again though, the krogan aren't going to annex anywhere peacefully. 

Plus, that's a contradictory statement. If there was an invasion, or open war, it wouldn't be an annexation. 

. Perhaps peaceful is the wrong word.  

[Steelcan]

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
I'm talking about a literal bullet fired.

Again, no proof. Mere assumption. Did the Krogans get a little violent during an annexation and rough some colonists up with some gunfire prior to this? We don't know. This is only the first official action of Council self-defense.

. The first shot literally fired in the Krogan rebellions was fired by the council

Prove it. Prove that the aggressive Krogan warrior culture peacefully annexed every single world, against the will of those already living there, without firing a shot. You can't. The idea of the Krogan of all races doing such a thing is laughable.

. Any violence that happened before the council attacked the krogan isn't part of the rebellions.

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
I'm talking about a literal bullet fired.

Again, no proof. Mere assumption. Did the Krogans get a little violent during an annexation and rough some colonists up with some gunfire prior to this? We don't know. This is only the first official action of Council self-defense.

. The first shot literally fired in the Krogan rebellions was fired by the council

Prove it. Prove that the aggressive Krogan warrior culture peacefully annexed every single world, against the will of those already living there, without firing a shot. You can't. The idea of the Krogan of all races doing such a thing is laughable.

. Any violence that happened before the council attacked the krogan isn't part of the rebellions.

By this logic neither is the Lusia shot then, since it was a prelude to the Rebellions, not the main part.

Modifié par JBPBRC, 24 janvier 2013 - 08:02 .

[xsdob]

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'm talking about a literal bullet fired.

Again, no proof. Mere assumption. Did the Krogans get a little violent during an annexation and rough some colonists up with some gunfire prior to this? We don't know. This is only the first official action of Council self-defense.

. The first shot literally fired in the Krogan rebellions was fired by the council

Prove it. Prove that the aggressive Krogan warrior culture peacefully annexed every single world, against the will of those already living there, without firing a shot. You can't. The idea of the Krogan of all races doing such a thing is laughable.

That's pretty shakey when it comes to arguements man. It would be like me demanding you prove they didn't do so peacefully.

You and him both have the same amount of proof, which means both you guys could be equally right or wrong.

[JBPBRC]

xsdob wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'm talking about a literal bullet fired.

Again, no proof. Mere assumption. Did the Krogans get a little violent during an annexation and rough some colonists up with some gunfire prior to this? We don't know. This is only the first official action of Council self-defense.

. The first shot literally fired in the Krogan rebellions was fired by the council

Prove it. Prove that the aggressive Krogan warrior culture peacefully annexed every single world, against the will of those already living there, without firing a shot. You can't. The idea of the Krogan of all races doing such a thing is laughable.

That's pretty shakey when it comes to arguements man. It would be like me demanding you prove they didn't do so peacefully.

You and him both have the same amount of proof, which means both you guys could be equally right or wrong.

Odds of the Krogan being warlike and aggressive are in my favor compared to the Krogan being tame and peaceful. Asking a Krogan not to be warlike is like asking a fish to stop swimming. Its in their nature.

Well unless you pick the Bulbasaur Pokeball. Green synthe-circuits seem to make them pacifists.

[Steelcan]

JBPBRC wrote...

By this logic neither is the Lusia shot then, since it was a prelude to the Rebellions, not the main part.

. When the first act of war by the council was carried out by the council against the Krogan the rebellions started.  We have no other record of the Krogan attacking the council or vice versa

[The Night Mammoth]

xsdob wrote...

That's pretty shakey when it comes to arguements man. It would be like me demanding you prove they didn't do so peacefully.

You and him both have the same amount of proof, which means both you guys could be equally right or wrong.

Maybe, but some conclusions are more likely than others. 

The idea that the krogan acted without the use of violence is ludicrous, and the language used to describe the prelude to the rebellions doesn't exactly paint a picture of peaceful occupation; to the contrary. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 24 janvier 2013 - 08:06 .

[Barquiel]

xsdob wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I'm talking about a literal bullet fired.

Again, no proof. Mere assumption. Did the Krogans get a little violent during an annexation and rough some colonists up with some gunfire prior to this? We don't know. This is only the first official action of Council self-defense.

. The first shot literally fired in the Krogan rebellions was fired by the council

Prove it. Prove that the aggressive Krogan warrior culture peacefully annexed every single world, against the will of those already living there, without firing a shot. You can't. The idea of the Krogan of all races doing such a thing is laughable.

That's pretty shakey when it comes to arguements man. It would be like me demanding you prove they didn't do so peacefully.

You and him both have the same amount of proof, which means both you guys could be equally right or wrong.

- We have krogan warlords using veteran soldiers to seize living space.

- We know the krogan conquered (= to gain or acquire by force of arms) world after world.

- The Council came to Lusia's defense.

It's completely irrelevant who fired the first shot on Lusia. The krogan started the violence long before Lusia.

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

By this logic neither is the Lusia shot then, since it was a prelude to the Rebellions, not the main part.

. When the first act of war by the council was carried out by the council against the Krogan the rebellions started.  We have no other record of the Krogan attacking the council or vice versa

Except for the part before that where the Krogans were taking other worlds from Council races. If you include one instance of history, ya gotta include the other parts. The Krogans had begun "rebelling" when they were taking worlds outside of what the Council gave them, against the Council's wishes.

[Steelcan]

I'm not saying they were tame and peaceful. I'm just saying they were the ones who were attacked in the opening act of the rebellions. It's also possible that they tried to take over Lusia by simply overcoming the local Asari populace through numbers, not by war.

But as was said above, we can't prove it either way definitively

[Steelcan]

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

By this logic neither is the Lusia shot then, since it was a prelude to the Rebellions, not the main part.

. When the first act of war by the council was carried out by the council against the Krogan the rebellions started.  We have no other record of the Krogan attacking the council or vice versa

Except for the part before that where the Krogans were taking other worlds from Council races. If you include one instance of history, ya gotta include the other parts. The Krogans had begun "rebelling" when they were taking worlds outside of what the Council gave them, against the Council's wishes.

. If they were council held worlds than the rebellions would have started earlier.  Can you name specific worlds were the Krogan took them from the council?

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

xsdob wrote...

That's pretty shakey when it comes to arguements man. It would be like me demanding you prove they didn't do so peacefully.

You and him both have the same amount of proof, which means both you guys could be equally right or wrong.

Maybe, but some conclusions are more likely than others. 

The idea that the krogan acted without the use of violence is ludicrous, and the language used to describe the prelude to the rebellions doesn't exactly paint a picture of peaceful occupation; to the contrary. 

. It's also possible they tried to dislodge the locals by overcoming them via population.  

[xsdob]

How is it that in a thread asking for who fired the first shot on the asari colony, that the fact of which side fired the first shot is regarded as irrelevant, despite it being the entire reason for this threads existence?

I do believe this argument has gained a life of it's own. I can only hope it does not gain self-awareness and enslave us all.

[Steelcan]

xsdob wrote...

How is it that in a thread asking for who fired the first shot on the asari colony, that the fact of which side fired the first shot is regarded as irrelevant, despite it being the entire reason for this threads existence?

I do believe this argument has gained a life of it's own. I can only hope it does not gain self-awareness and enslave us all.

.  THANK YOU

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

By this logic neither is the Lusia shot then, since it was a prelude to the Rebellions, not the main part.

. When the first act of war by the council was carried out by the council against the Krogan the rebellions started.  We have no other record of the Krogan attacking the council or vice versa

Except for the part before that where the Krogans were taking other worlds from Council races. If you include one instance of history, ya gotta include the other parts. The Krogans had begun "rebelling" when they were taking worlds outside of what the Council gave them, against the Council's wishes.

. If they were council held worlds than the rebellions would have started earlier.  Can you name specific worlds were the Krogan took them from the council?

The simle act of "rebelling" implies taking actions against the wishes of the Council. Hence Krogan Rebellions.

Besides, the Council doesn't exactly have a good track record for invasions of remote fringe-held Council worlds. Remember the Collector attacks? Yeah, humans were a Council race then. Udina/Anderson get outvoted every single time to come to the defense of those worlds. The fact that Lusia was going to be used as an eventual springboard to hit Thessia is what prompted them to action, since soon a Council homeworld was going to be threatened.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

I'm not saying they were tame and peaceful. I'm just saying they were the ones who were attacked in the opening act of the rebellions. It's also possible that they tried to take over Lusia by simply overcoming the local Asari populace through numbers, not by war.

There are 2 billion asari on Lusia at the time of the Reaper war. 

There were probably similar numbers at the time of the Rebellions, so I think the possibility that the Krogan were going to overcome the asari using numbers is extremely unlikely, given that the asari didn't want them there in the first place. 

They'd have to land hundreds of millions to have a chance. 

But as was said above, we can't prove it either way definitively

It's safe to say it wasn't peaceful. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 24 janvier 2013 - 08:15 .

[Steelcan]

JBPBRC wrote...

The simle act of "rebelling" implies taking actions against the wishes of the Council. Hence Krogan Rebellions.

Besides, the Council doesn't exactly have a good track record for invasions of remote fringe-held Council worlds. Remember the Collector attacks? Yeah, humans were a Council race then. Udina/Anderson get outvoted every single time to come to the defense of those worlds. The fact that Lusia was going to be used as an eventual springboard to hit Thessia is what prompted them to action, since soon a Council homeworld was going to be threatened.

. Can you name specific worlds or not?

 And the Asari were worried that they might hit Thessia, they didnt have concrete proof that it would happen.

[The Night Mammoth]

Steelcan wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

xsdob wrote...

That's pretty shakey when it comes to arguements man. It would be like me demanding you prove they didn't do so peacefully.

You and him both have the same amount of proof, which means both you guys could be equally right or wrong.

Maybe, but some conclusions are more likely than others. 

The idea that the krogan acted without the use of violence is ludicrous, and the language used to describe the prelude to the rebellions doesn't exactly paint a picture of peaceful occupation; to the contrary. 

. It's also possible they tried to dislodge the locals by overcoming them via population.  

The krogan don't reproduce that quickly, and you have literally no evidence for that. 

[JBPBRC]

Steelcan wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

The simle act of "rebelling" implies taking actions against the wishes of the Council. Hence Krogan Rebellions.

Besides, the Council doesn't exactly have a good track record for invasions of remote fringe-held Council worlds. Remember the Collector attacks? Yeah, humans were a Council race then. Udina/Anderson get outvoted every single time to come to the defense of those worlds. The fact that Lusia was going to be used as an eventual springboard to hit Thessia is what prompted them to action, since soon a Council homeworld was going to be threatened.

. Can you name specific worlds or not?

 And the Asari were worried that they might hit Thessia, they didnt have concrete proof that it would happen.

Of course I can't, since the game never goes into explicit detail. 

--However, that doesn't magically override my previous points. They still stand.

[Steelcan]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

There are 2 billion asari on Lusia at the time of the Reaper war. 

There were probably similar numbers at the time of the Rebellions, so I think the possibility that the Krogan were going to overcome the asari using numbers is extremely unlikely, given that the asari didn't want them there in the first place. 

They'd have to land hundreds of millions to have a chance. 

. 1 Krogan female can have 1,000 children in a single clutch of eggs.  They'd overcome them in matter of decades.

[The Night Mammoth]

xsdob wrote...

How is it that in a thread asking for who fired the first shot on the asari colony, that the fact of which side fired the first shot is regarded as irrelevant, despite it being the entire reason for this threads existence?

I do believe this argument has gained a life of it's own. I can only hope it does not gain self-awareness and enslave us all.

The thread isn't just asking which side fired first, it's a discussion on who started the conflict in general. 

Also, just because that's the point of the thread, doesn't mean the initial argument can't still be irrelevant.